Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience(myvolvoex90.com) |
Unsafe and Unpredictable: My Volvo EX90 Experience(myvolvoex90.com) |
https://www.gunthervolvocars.net/who-makes-volvo-cars.htm
The Volvo EX90 (in the article) is made in Charleston SC.
https://i.imgur.com/sxPpQIV_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=gra...
Serious, is there evidence that this is happening an all EX90 models? And what does a lawyer say in such cases? Normally, $90,000 cars are leased. When does the special termination apply?
I have a 2010s VW, and I think it has the right amount of software. The screen has CarPlay, radio and some configurations, but 100% of the driving can be done without using it. Things like wipers, AC, cruise control, everything is manual. Yet the car even has the latest safety stuff like lane assist and BLIS.
Is there an EV out there with the same level of software? Can we essentially buy a 2019 Golf with the fuel tank gauge exchanged for a battery level indicator?
I've had the "Complete Center Screen Malfunction" issue on my Polestar 2 (though an infotainment reboot "fixed" it.
But climate controls disappearing and climate shutting off during infotainment reboots is already pretty atrocious.
I have the "backup camera unavailable" issue, and despite multiple recalls and attempts to fix in software... the issue persists.
There are other issues, but none as bad as he's seen with his EX90!
In general, climate shutting off is safety issue too. In -40C it is not many minutes until you can’t see through windows.
Edit: OMG!
Anyone who thinks Tesla's Autopilot/FSD (or any aspect of their software) is bad... much of the competition is far worse.
A few issues:
* Lane keeping gets dangerously close to other cars in turns for no apparent reason * Lane keeping will randomly decide to follow non-existent lanes * You can't turn off lane assist (the baby version of lane keeping) and it tries to override you, leading to jerking of the steering wheel at high speed (eg to avoid an obstacle in the road). * When switching from R to D it wants you to press the brake. But if you are still moving a tiny bit or you don't press the brake hard enough it just shifts you into N instead (!!). I live on a hill and this is only detected when I press the accelerator pedal and nothing happens. But you have to come to a full stop to shift into D (Why???). * Some settings refuse to save to driver profile; to get single pedal driving you must use the paddle shifters each driving session to go from iDrive 3 to Max. But if you are moving too fast it refuses to change the mode. If you set the mode in R it resets when you move to D. * Despite being an EV with key/digital key detection you must manually press the ON button and manually press the Off button. Otherwise when you get out of the car it just sits there ready to be driven away by a thief. * No auto-lock when walking away. * Remember the pedal thing from shifting? Same with pressing ON button. If you don't press the brake pedal down hard enough or give it 1-2 seconds before pressing ON it just turns on accessory mode. * No geofencing so no ability to configure anything to behave differently at home. * Want to control the charge plug locking behavior? Don't bother going to Settings. You won't find it. You must go to the home page, then press the EV Leaf box. Then go to EV Settings from here. There you will find a new settings menu that has the same ones from Settings but it now has a couple of new categories not present with all the other settings of the car. Including whether to lock the charge port door and whether to lock the charge cable into the car itself. * Sometimes in following cruise control mode it just locks in at a speed different from the one you set for no reason. * When you touch the accelerator in cruise it turns cruise off so when you let off the accelerator the car actually jerks you around as it decelerates for a period of time before cruise kicks back in lurching you forward. * Don't press the accelerator for too long or it will just turn cruise control off entirely, including lane keeping. * It wants your hands on the steering wheel but if you move too much it turns off lane keeping but leaves cruise control on. * It has the usual massive plethora of physical buttons randomly scattered throughout the cabin. Some on the center console. Some on the three stalks. Some on the left side where you can't see them. Some below the touch screen. * Different controls behave differently. Sometimes next to each other with similar functions! Opening the rear door? Press and hold. Open the frunk? Double tap the button. The buttons are next to each other. The buttons below the touch screen? Capacitive it seems. Why when the rest are physical? * Despite the cluster being just a huge LCD they do almost nothing with it. The only customizations are for-pay add-ons. * Did I mention the light-up squares on the front are customizable? If you pay for them. Each pattern is an add-on you pay for. * Their app is an absolute disaster. I could do an entire post just about how awful every aspect of it is.
Unpredictable, unreliable and especially unsafe (built like a tank but prone to accidents due to all the random electronic failures and malfunctions)
I don’t think good cars exist anymore. All car software is shit.
That crap won't cut it with EVs.
Recently, it's started turning itself on when you get out of the driver seat, and sometimes the power windows decide to operate themselves. I'm guessing it's only going to get worse over time. (There was recently a big software update, and those two issues started after they pushed it out.)
The only one that really drives me nuts is the lane-keeping feature, which cannot even follow clearly marked lanes in broad daylight. I don't know that I've ever had it go for more than 15s without disengaging on its own, and forget following even a gentle curve.
The site is very nice and pretty thorough.
Makes me not want to get this car or any Volvo!
“Analysis of Volvo's Final Response: This response … confirms Volvo's complete abandonment of customer responsibility…This is Volvo's definition of ‘customer care’ in 2025.”
“Center Display Failure - Critical Interface Blackout: Main Controls Inaccessible”
“Climate Control Malfunction - Climate System Override: Controls Unresponsive Despite Interface Status”
“Complete Center Screen Malfunction - Total System Breakdown: Hard Reset Failed to Restore Screen”
I know little about Volvo or this case; I’m choosing to offer them some benefits of doubt. Comms and decision making are prone to break down on the corporate ladder. Volvo had no doubt fumbled his case badly but I’m not convinced it is indicative of the company’s overall customer support policy. Sure, the main touchscreen had failed. But how is this an “override” of HVAC or a “total system breakdown”? And what’s the “system” anyways? On top of all that, these subtitle summaries smell like AI.
I don’t deny that Volvo has a lot to answer for. Though the choice of these instigating descriptions might not be the best one giving the author is actively pursuing litigation.
Part of it is that he clearly used ChatGPT or Claude to write the prose. (I really should not have to explain how, despite not reading the OP at all, your example quote alone establishes that. You see this kind of hyperbolic unordered list/checklist all the time now. This seems like more of a Claude tic, but could also be ChatGPT due to sheer base rates.)
Being sycophantic and ordered to write polemic, a LLM'll go overboard.
It's just an order mess-up, but opening with stuff like: "Sent a formal complaint to Volvo Canada on January 16, requesting escalation to Managing Director Matt Girgis. Volvo Canada never confirmed this escalation." is a vibe.
I'm quite mystified how systemic failures like the throttle response and ESC failures can occur.
I don't think we should blame the customer.
> But how is this an “override” of HVAC or a “total system breakdown”?
Complete failure of the throttle would fall within total system breakdown to me.
> Comms and decision making are prone to break down on the corporate ladder.
Businesses do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, they aren't human. If their support ladder broke down to this point that it is fair game to name and shame and up to them to do a PR push and fix their support.
It seem they are the exact opposite of what I thought.
Anyone with any training in crisis management would immediately refund the purchase price, apologize and offer a discount on a replacement.
The negative publicity of this post alone has cost the company millions in customer goodwill.
Hey Volvo, I’ll now never buy a Volvo. I always thought they were meant to be safe?
Only recently sold my 850 because we're expecting a kid and wanted to mount the car seat correctly.
It’s a mass market luxury vehicle and the brand is still considered about the safest you can buy today.
It’s certainly not known for quality or reliability though. You buy them if your sole focus is on crash safety it seems.
What you’re buying is essentially an overpriced Chinese car with Volvo stickers.
And I’m saying this as a Swede. Buy German cars, specifically within the Volkswagen auto group (Audi, VW, Skoda etc) if you want reliable quality.
Those few million are invisible, the 150K you see right now and you know, for sure, you're saving it. Incidentally, this is how we got into this quality mess. Cutting quality seems like free money... except that it's not, it's just that nobody bothers to measure the opportunity cost.
And then one day you wake up and you're Chrysler, selling piece of shit vehicles for wayyy more than they're worth. And now your brand is worthless. But, at least you saved a few bucks ;P
If all he wants is a refund, that should do it. But if he's more interested in warning the world, hopefully he sticks to his guns and makes them give a straight up refund
- Fight Club
1. If they really have so many faulty cars on the road that's a serious hazard and any accidents where people die may end up destroying Volvo entirely because of negligence.
2. An economically reasonable answer might be refund the guy making the complaint and ofter all other owners $10k credit towards your next Volvo purchase or free 3 years of maintenance and service. Something like this might be enough to stem the bleeding while protecting the brand.
It looked to be (and is!) an absolutely beautiful vehicle and also seemed to be making choices in the hardware (lidar) that I hoped, would, eventually deliver a combination of safety and self-driving capabilities that would be unmatched. I was willing to pay a premium and knew that it would take some time for the self-driving to come to fruition, but figured it would be a capable vehicle until that point in time.
But dang, what a botched launch. Not only were there all these issues, which are insane to me that Volvo didn't have more people in social media / subreddit, but also from a financial perspective the car is just insanely hard to get into. Lease terms were absolutely terrible.
I ended up getting a Hyuandai Ioniq 9 and am really glad I went that direction. Yeah, it doesn't offer as much as a Tesla in terms of FSD, but it also has better build quality and interior quality nearly matching the Volvo. I like the styling (but I know some do not), and it has actual physical controls for the stuff I care about and the best heads up display I have used (favorite feature: you get photos of incoming caller). NACS is also great... but I can't bring myself to take 2 spots yet at superchargers.
Jokes aside, I would love the Ioniq 9, I think it looks much better than the EV9, or even EX90 which I find old looking.
2007 Mazdaspeed 3, just keeps going. All buttons, no screens.
2016 Porsche Cayman, one small multifunction screen, display only, no touch. Buttons for the very few “features” present on the car.
2016 Ford Transit Connect. 200k miles. Just goes. One small screen, doesn’t interfere with anything critical.
It has physical buttons for the aircon.
No wifi = no speakers listening to me and selling my personal data (yep that’s a thing)
I have to press a button on the key fob to open it so it can’t be stolen by relaying the signal.
It’s pretty cheap to run because I hardly drive anywhere anyway.
But when I do I just buy this stuff called ‘petrol’ that’s all around the place and takes like 30 seconds.
I also still get to feel smug because the environmental cost of producing a new electric car is WAY greater than the petrol I’m burning.
I'm patiently looking to upgrade from my great 2018 subaru forester xt touring, but nothing new seems much better.
I think some provinces have some additional vehicle-specific laws, but no comprehensive "lemon law" as such.
The base price (USD) is 81K - after clicking on every single option, I managed to bump it to 105K.
I sat in an EX90 demonstrator a year ago at the dealer and was told not to touch anything inside the cabin. The car wasn't ready back then and, from reading owners forums now, it's still not fully baked.
I don’t understand the logic of having each Polestar model running a unique software stack rather than progressively improving one system across all models - but must be a downstream impact of the fractured Geely badges.
That said, Volvo Canada really needs to lift its game and just give the guy a new car already. Hope the bad PR and lawsuit gets Volvo to realise their mistake, apologise and refund him.
Been driving a Polestar 2 for nearly 4 years now and while it’s not a disastrous experience it could be a lot better. Things have improved over the years, but still pretty disappointed.
The infotainment system runs on a very outdated atom chip that’s too slow for Android Automotive. Constant frame drops, crashes or stuff just generally not working.
In a recent software update they disabled the cockpit view if you put it in reverse, just to save on resources.
The whole Android Automotive thing is worthless. There are barely any apps and when they finally released YouTube after 2 years it was just a buggy wrapper around the mobile web view. Most videos will just display a green screen due to lack of codec support, so I just pull out my phone now when I’m charging. But even the radio or Spotify fail to play half of the time.
The 360 degree camera sometimes will just not work. I still have a tiny back window, unlike the Polestar 4, but the reverse lights are so tiny and dim that it’s impossible to see anything when reversing at night.
Digital Key works, but also have to regularly pull out my phone to trigger it or manually press the button in the app. If you’re in a parking garage without internet you’re simply not getting into the car. And that’s without the random logouts.
Lane assist works relatively well, if it weren’t for the constant nagging to put your hands on the wheel even if you’re lightly tugging it. I need to really jerk it a bit before it stops beeping at me, making it completely useless.
Maintenance happens at the Volvo dealership where they made sure to make me feel like a second class citizen for not leasing a Volvo. They didn’t read my reservation mentioning the broken rain sensor, ensuring I had to return a week later for them to replace it because they didn’t have the part in stock.
I was between a model 3 and this car initially. Mainly because of the software, and for that reason I still regret not going for the M3, but given the current situation I’m happier driving the PS2.
Nearly 4 years in the chipset is still the same for the newer model.
Oh I know how to fix this one. Format windows partition and install linux
That made me a solid Volvo buyer (I replaced that car with a newer XC90 T8 - a plug-in hybrid that I still have and is a great vehicle). That said, new versions of any product have issues sometimes but the loss of propulsion on the highway is extremely concerning. Hopefully Volvo comes through and irons this all out like they did for me.
I'm saying this as a German, i strongly reject those accusations. Do not buy from VW group (and not from PSA/Stellantis (Citroen, Fiat, Opel etc brands), either).
As more and more of the vehicle's experience becomes software controlled, manufacturers who don't have good software development teams are going to lose out. German companies don't seem to understand the growing importance of software, and they are happy to collectively develop the software [1] as opposed to seeing software as a key differentiator.
[1] https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/25/automotive-industry-lau...
VWAG is now on attempt number two of fixing their Software problems.
They tried Cariad, the result was your experience. The next attempt is giving billions to Rivian.
If you believe that these companies do not understand how important software is you are totally delusional. Literally Billions worth of money have they spent trying to fix that.
I feel it's quite off-base to associate the quality of a car to a country. The quality of a car is a statistical quantity that's mostly related to a specific model of car.
There are at least 3 wrong insinuations in the above post.
1. Volvo engineering is still mostly based in Sweden. Geely has mostly not touched it. So it's still Swedish -- thus it is still Swedish quality and safety. If it has gone down, then it's Swedish quality and safety that has gone down.
2. Many Chinese cars are now high quality.
3. That countries are correlated with quality is a lazy mental shortcut. Many Mitsubishi are not high quality, despite being Japanese.
Also the Volvo EX90 (in the article) is made in Charleston SC.
The list goes on. But yeah, if I look at for instance Volvo EX30 or EX40 etc, they look very ”off” somehow and doesn’t scream ”built to last” any longer.
Compared to the older XC70, 740 and so on which are built like locomotives.
I strongly believe that some countries correlate with quality (in general, and depending on the subject). It has to do with the way of working I guess. People in countries with stronger hierarchy in the workplace tend to polish away the faults and shortcomings when reporting to their superiors.
I don’t believe there’s anything strange in thinking that way. It’s as if saying the Avocados in Peru is generally better and higher quality than the Avocados produced in Spain.
> great, reliable cars
The quality of ride of Chinese cars is not even close to their European counterparts, children get sick even on the front row in ten minutes in a car that costs next to $60K. Their suspension is such that they do not compensate for sudden roll when one side of car hits a bump or hole.
Rolls Royce made their Phantoms to have adjustable clearance so that Chinese buyers would not suffer from bad roads of China, yet all of the buyers of Chinese cars have to suffer from roads that are not ideally paved.
Having said that, Toyota is known for their reliability, and Volvo (+ Polestar) was / are known for their safety.
Just to emphasize the point: Nissan is doomed because generally no one wants their cars, but they have perhaps one of the greatest bang-for-buck EVs outside of Chinese brands: the Leaf 2.
Take this with a grain of salt (since it's not first hand experience), but I have heard from friends that the quality of German cars has degraded significantly
That stat is all the more impressive because it’s also a very common car, (at least as far as expensive cars go), so in my area for example I see at least 10 of them parked on the streets on my daily 30min walk in London.
I own a 2020 BMW with an electronic gearbox, which broke at around 80k km just a couple of months after the warranty expired (yeah I know!). It was a bit of a headache going back and forth with BMW to request a free repair. Fortunately, the headquarters agreed to cover the cost, and they installed a refurbished electronic gearbox. I was quite relieved that I didn’t have to pay about €10K out of pocket!
All that to say that I wouldn’t call BMW particularly reliable in terms of quality these days, but their customer support was decent, at least in my case.
Meanwhile they praise Polestar, new Mini EVs, Smart, Volvo and others that are also being produced in joint ventures with Chinese manufacturers but don’t carry a chinese brand.
German cars, as a rule, are made with complete disregard for the people who will have to work on them. They are reliable while meticulously maintained and before anything even remotely important break. Then they become a nightmare.
And I'm saying _this_ as a Swede, because apparently it matters: what cars are most reliable is publicly available information, and they're all from Asia. My personal favorite is Toyota.
While it's true that it's mainly asian/Japanese cars that are least reported, that doesn't make them the most reliable in general.
Mazdas and Toyotas tend to rust off in our nordic weather way faster than german brands or older Volvos. Sure, the engine might still run but what difference does it make if it's all become a piece of rust that is ready to fall apart within ten years.
I had a 1987 Volvo 760 in the nineties.
It was an unmitigated piece of shit.
VW ID.4 owner here. The car is pretty good mechanically, but the software is garbage, or more specifically hot dumpster fire.
which Swedish or EU companies do?
not a trick question - I'm genuinely baffled by systematic QA neglect in most EU based companies (which are still better than much US companies) .
US driving culture-wise, I’ve seen Audi and Mercedes drivers adopt the same brain-dead behaviors BMW drivers have that I wouldn’t want to be associated with them either.
If I were to buy a new car today, it would be a Toyota or a Honda, maybe a Hyundai.
Avoid like the absolute plague.
That all being said, it's (probably?) not spying on me and isn't likely to do anything unexpected and weird on the highway like the post mentions. I can also totally work on it myself or get my local mechanic to. Although, unsurprisingly, parts are hard to find and more expensive than they are for my Honda.
I've taken it into the Volvo dealership for service on a few occasions and they legitimately laugh at me. ("How many miles are you looking to put on this thing?") I trust their technicians and am willing to pay for certain jobs and diagnoses (probably their most valuable offering) but their service and salespeople look down their noses at me and it's unpleasant. As others have said, Volvo was absolutely a great car company in the past but it doesn't seem to one anymore. Despite how much I like my car, I can't imagine buying one of their modern, tech-centric models -- in part because of posts like this one.
There are plenty of 2020-era cars that are, so far, remarkably reliable and cheap to maintain and repair. It's simply that Volvo and Polestar are quite bad at making vehicles.
1. It frequently makes sense to buy older cars for several reasons (cost, common problems being recognized and understood).
2. I’m not interested in anything after ~2020 or so, not because they aren’t built well, but because they include too many “features” that I refuse to own. Two-way telemetry, that sort of thing.
I’d have agreed with you in the past, but I just bought a new car for the first time. I wanted a compact pickup - there were basically none produced for a decade from 2012-2022 - the ones from before this gap are questionable safety-wise, and now either are falling apart from rust, or going for a hefty premium because there aren’t many enthusiast-maintained rust-free models for sale. The post 2022 ones for sale just don’t have enough of a discount off new models to be worth buying unless.
These were global-maximum designs, it's all downhill from here.
Also, note that this is a base model, with various “enhancements” added later, so it may be lacking certain (all) options.
The environmental cost of producing an electric car happens once. But driving a car is an ongoing environmental insult. This is an apples/oranges comparison unless you integrate the driving damage over time.
This analysis suggests EVs are overall a win for the environment after 5 years of ownership, assuming your electricity comes from coal. If it comes from hydro or renewable sources, it's more like one year.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d...
So according to that article it’d take 13.5 years of driving an electric car to pay it back.
You let me know an electric car that lasts 13.5 years and I’ll head on down to the dealership.
Otherwise I will wait out the remaining 8.5 years as best I can
I already have the gas car from 8 years ago.
From what I can tell keeping this is way better than buying any new car - of course if I do buy a new one it’ll be electric. But keeping an existing car uses way less co2 than buying a new one.
The scrap yards are btw filling up with modern cars quite quickly because people cannot afford to repair new cars, or the cars are uneconomical to repair even after minor collisions. Whereas a lot of old cars (pre-2010) can be fixed on your driveway with easily affordable tools.
Having to press a button on the fob for it to transmit a code key via radio does not mean that the key cannot be captured with an SDR by someone close by.
Only a monotonic code as a part of the key can prevent replay attacks, and only proper encryption can hinder the code from being totally cracked.
Citation very much needed.
Electric cars are still cars, and therefore terrible for the environment, but they do emit significantly less pollution over their lives and require a lot less oil to operate.
I drive about 1000 miles a year. That’s about 250kg of co2 a year.
A new car uses something like 20 tonnes of co2 to make it.
So that’s 80 years of driving for me.
Obviously if I BUY a new car, it’ll be electric (but hopefully someone will have made a dumb electric car by then)
They’ve essentially skated by on brand recognition earned decades ago.
After five or six years it spent more time being repaired than not, and I sold it. It was one of the few times where having an extended warranty paid off. Haven't really considered a Volvo since.
Like most new cars, everything is tied into the center display/computer. It will crash while driving, which will remove all sound from your car, and I don't mean just the radio/spotify/whatever. You can be in mid-turn with your turn signal on and then just absolute quiet. It is so off-putting. Your blinker stops, you can't really tell your engine is on, and every screen just goes black. Thankfully I don't have a pure electric, so I my car still physically moves, but I really can't believe I haven't gotten in an accident when my screen crashes.
Thankfully I leased this vehicle, and I'm almost done with it, I honestly can't wait to turn it in.
I’m thinking of turning it in for an updated model, but the updated model has displays instead of actual gauges and indicator lights like the older niro, and that just makes my skin crawl. It should be damn near impossible for the gauges and indicators to blink out of existence, and reassurance about nothing-but-screens has not been forthcoming.
(Still driving my 2012 EV - not a typo - and got a can't-miss off-lease CPO deal on a "new" 2022 this year.)
How do you dig into this responsibly?
I really don't want to be buying a new car right now as the ICE ones all seem to be expensive trash but the EVs are changing so quickly that it isn't worth it.
My Chevy Volt is beginning to show its age, but you will pry it from my cold, dead hands at this point.
Compare to gas cars which is a very mature technology, and really only perks and features get updated.
Sure, other companies are making an effort to catch up with Tesla on autonomous driving, but range/speed/price are largely stagnant.
Mostly, it looks like every company (in the US/EU)is in shambles releasing half baked EVs hoping no one will notice that their hardware company is terrible at software.
The reason is because the insurance companies want you to care about the car as an asset, on the basis that statistically they are driven more carefully (and therefore cause less third party property damage, bodily injury, etc.)
The salesperson looked at me like I was crazy and confirmed it was global (the Y remembers what the proper height is at various locations using the GPS). It's frustrating to me that Teslas have fit and finish issues (though they get better) and there are some parts of it that I think are made cheaply (paint for example), but the software on the Tesla is miles ahead of anything else.
Model Y doesn't have adjustable suspension lol.
What I did not enjoy when I was one was the number of functions that are buttonless and require touchscreen UI. Additionally every 1-2 years they'd do a major version upgrade that moved said functions somewhere around the screen, sometimes into a sub-menu.
So I couldn't do stuff by touch without looking, and they'd periodically break my quick glance muscle memory with releases. Stuff like - adjust air vents, adjust wiper settings, front/rear defrost.
VW software is a monstrosity from everything I've heard.
BMW has struck a decent balance of features, reliability, and having BUTTONS. I also have a HUD in mine and it's nice having instrument cluster display plus HUD to avoid really having to look away from the road at all. The number of cars that require glancing at the central touchscreen for lots of stuff is nuts, and a fad I hope fades away.
I'll check out Rivian next time though, as those look pretty damn good. Like you, I don't know of any other brands that are competitive enough for me. I want to like other car UX's but once you have a smooth UX its hard to go back to sluggish ones.
Rivian is the closest next-best option, but loads of people have complained about bugs in their software.
Looking at getting a Golf R once our Prius gives me an excuse (just got rear ended and the thing doesn’t even chirp, squeak or complain, so I might be waiting for a while).
Japanese is maybe even better, but I just cant get over the styling.
Pretending “unable to drive” is a safety issue is silly. People don’t buy these cars for reliability or quality.
I have zero interest in a Volvo but have a few friends who are Volvo fans. They only really talk about crash survivability and crash test results - any other metric really is irrelevant to them, or at least seen as a trade off worth it to them.
Just use the seatbelt?
They did recently issue a software recall for the backup camera, so now when the backup camera crashes it goes into 360 camera mode instead of just a black screen.
Overall I'm happy with this car though and would recommend it.
Idk why you're pulling this non sequitur and then discussing with it?
What would be a "better" vibe than requesting an escalation? if you buy something and you don't get something you've bought? Just say "oh well, it is what it is"?
That's for basically what amounts to supercars. I imagine a normal luxury car for the "mass market" like the EX90 is going to get even less attention.
For someone not used to it, I can see it being quite frustrating if their dealer is not totally up-front about what an allocation and build timeframe actually means.
A deposit is really not anything more than giving the dealer a bit of assurance that you will actually buy the car they burned their allocation slot on when it arrives - vs. them using it for a more standard common build that has a wider market for it. You are under no obligation to buy the hot pink on light blue custom color options you ordered should it arrive and you decide it looks horrible, for example.
It's a strange weird scene. I followed this on various car forums when I was planning on ordering a custom spec for my "dream car" a while back, but decided to just get something not quite optioned how I'd like it off the lot instead.
This sort of thinking about the internals of the business isn't necessary. They're paid to be there; they need to manage their suppliers, internal or external.
No!
A good app is more expensive than a good thermometer readout, and will break much sooner.
I'll pay a premium for no-tech products.
Case in point: any time the rear view camera comes on in a car commercial. Beatufiul car, awesome interior...potato-quality backup camera.
The idea behind the stalk is more to let you control the instrument-panel display if you don't have the multifunction wheel controls.
I have a Mr12Volt CarPlay adapter in mine that works nicely, although capacitive multitouch would be a lot better for that. Key point of course is that none of this gadgetry is actually required when driving. They will take this car when they pry my skeletal fingers off the buttons.
As the owner of both a 2012 BEV and a 2014 PHEV (in addition to my "new" 2022), all of which are in perfect mechanical condition, it's tough to look at BEV technology as something that will "greatly improve".
Is my 2022 BEV way better than my 2012? Sure, but it's an entire decade removed (my 2012 is looking like... well, whatever the dog did to it). Is it worse than current 2025/26 BEVs? No, not by much at all.
Keep on rockin' with the Volt until your dog rips up the upholstery. There'll be a three year old off-lease BEV or PHEV waiting for you at a shocking low price when it's time.
Less updates, and sometimes they don't quite work OTA, but I don't really care.
When I had a Tesla, everything was on the touchscreen including the speedometer and various critical controls, and I had 2-3 full reboot black screen while driving incidents of the system.
Was it neat that Tesla shipped new features regularly, sure. Were most of them half baked (summon) or stupid (farts, Netflix).. yes. The incremental "oh neat" for me was outweighed by various driver critical touchscreen-only controls moving around the screen release to release.
On my BMW I think the infotainment may have rebooted on me maybe once, but it has an independent dashboard instrument cluster screen & HUD which were not impacted.
And the BMW has way way more buttons so I do not have to care about the screen, including on the steering wheel and controls on the drivers right side arm rest. So again I can drive without distractions.
The other thing worth mentioning is the driver assist system that Tesla is supposed to lead on but.. eh, not really. After 4 years of Tesla Autopilot releases constantly changing behavior, frequently not for the better, it was nice to have a predictable ADAS system from BMW.
While Tesla pumps will pile on about how FSD is not AP and 2022 is not 2025, I just do not buy anything they or the company says after 4 years of daily experience with the product. A product that mostly works most of the time but then has unpredictable behavior and erratic regressions is not helpful.
Battery has lost ~10% max capacity over the years.
How questionable?
In my ID.4 pressing both buttons with windows half-open will sometimes close both windows and sometimes one window will go up and the other down. Does that qualify as "questionable"? :-)
> software is good
You mean your parking cameras always turn on when needed and you don't get a black screen where the camera image should be about 30% of the time? Can the car recognize two drivers by keyfob and not mix up their settings? Does it not prompt you to "log in" (confirm the driver) every time you start it? Is anything except the background color tied to the whole login thing (like, for example, seat settings)?
My bar is pretty low here after the ID.4 hot garbage software.
Who is “they”?
Put a CCS fast charge port and better battery cooling in this thing and it'd be the perfect boring reliable EV with physical dash controls (no touch screen BS).
Sure, it'll kill me because of the comparative lack of safety, but that seems like a minor sacrifice in the face of needing to deal with a new car.
It also doesn't have pillars the thickness of an elephant's legs, like all new cars, significantly less compromising to visibility all around. It also lacks the now ubiquitous square and raised bonnet.
I’ve got a 2025 sedan with all the newest safety features, and what you lose in visibility you more than gain in general situational awareness, especially with aging eyes, ears, etc.. Managing display and alarm complexities is the challenge, though, since the aging population also have issues there. A driving training simulator at the dealership for these new sedans for the elderly would be a big help, since many of the safety options are only active in a vehicle under motion. The temptation for the aged is just to shut these confusing options off as too complex, thus losing the safety advantage.
Is this year 2000? Chinese cars are overwhelmingly tuned for much softer ride experience at expense of feeling performance / sporty. Especially 50k+ tier from last few years, most perform better than Euro cars in terms of noise, vibration harshness. You generally have to scrape to bottom barrel entry level 10-15k PRC cars to get bad ride experiences now. Chinese roads also great now, down to rural.
Quality's caught up since 2020s. Sure you can wait 10 years, but there's industry indicators like problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) where PRC EVs are fine / better than foreign bands (built in PRC factories. At least mechanically (power trains, batteries, chassis). Most PRC weakeness comes from stuff like infotainment, drive assist last few years because they've been iterating software a little too fast. There's also proprietary fleet data on EV taxis / rideshare that's been driven to death, and those hold up fine too.
Rolls Royce tuned their PRC cars to be EXTRA PLUSH, because PRC buyers prefers extra cloudy rides vs Euro buyers that prefers firmer / responsive, NA softer than EU, MENA somewhere between EU/NA.
> Is this year 2000? Chinese cars are overwhelmingly tuned for much softer ride experience at expense of feeling performance / sporty.
There is nothing soft in ride of any Chinese car in my experience. These cars are in taxis here and you can experience ride in pretty much every model and brand, from basic to luxury. No Chinese car I've been driven in compensate for sudden rolls.
European cars have much softier ride than anything Chinese, even Chinese "luxury" brands sold here. As you mentioned that, then "sporty, firm and responsive" BMW 5series' are much more pleasant to be schoffered in than anything Chinese.
Chinese luxury car brand Hongqi put V6 turbocharged hybrid motors into their full sedan models [1], this is really a shame!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongqi_H9
This shows they do not understand what quality of ride is. What vibrations are, how they affect quality of ride, how electric motors exacerbate vibrations [2], how motor's torque output affect quality of ride, etc, etc.
[2] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/ev-drivers-passengers-motion...
Also, please experience being driven in the car in addition to drive a car.
In case of being driven you are not paying attention to the road and do not know why some acceleration did happen. In this situation your brain can decide that your senses are lying to it because body is poisoned and will invoke gag reflex, which we call ride sickness.
I look into that because I have to drive a family where two members are prone to motion sickness. I will definitely not look into any electric car because of this.
[1] https://abcnews.go.com/Business/ev-drivers-passengers-motion...
In my opinion, it is unavoidable.
You can use car.info to if you want to dig further on this (statistik på skrotade bilar). Or just ask your favorite LLM. You don’t have to take my word for it.
Japan doesn’t salt their roads nearly as much as we do.
The development of autonomous driving has hit diminishing returns, and while "mostly reliable" is OK for a Taxi fleet with expensive experts on call 24/7, I do not want the deadly half-arsed crap from Tesla.
But Mavericks and some of their newer hybrids are eCVTs.
The only thing that matters, really, is whether you are personally supporting the oil market or the electric market, how much, whether electric generation in your area has a good mix of green sources, and your support for political willingness to embrace policy that identifies and prices-in the side-effects on the environment, such as eliminating subsidies for oil companies. It all boils down to your willingness to put your money where your beliefs are, which for some people is very hard to do, for some people is not very hard to do, and for some people the environment just doesn't factor into their decision making at all. Tragedy of the commons, or will enough people actually care? Those who have the means and the awareness, definitely should.
My car mostly just sits there.
The most environmentally friendly car is a stationary car.
I think we're not talking about cars any more. I think we're talking about a security blanket.
Genuinely curious, I recently sold my 14 year-old Ford Fiesta, and could arguably say the same thing, but I could imagine some people disagreeing.
I've heard somebody describe it as "they are using methods that have been known not to work for 20 years".
But they know that. That was the idea behind Cariad. Having a new company, unburdened by what other parts of the company are doing, which is doing just software. Giving them the freedom to do things a different way has always been the intention.
What you are describing is not an automotive problem, it is a Europe wide problem. Software Engineers in Europe, in general, are pretty bad, often cling to outdated methodologies and tend to create overly complex and overly useless systems. There are hundreds of examples for this, throughout European industries and governments. "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.
Consider also the salaries of European Software Engineers, even in the most wealthy countries, like France and Germany, it averages around 50k to 60k, it is not the highly lucrative career it is (was?) in the US.
> "German engineering" has not translated into software at all.
Anecdata: in my 10+ years experience, the worst UX, UI, code and SWEs I've seen, are all German. I'm not saying there's absolutely no good ones here and there, but in general it seems the love for a very complex written/spoken language (riddled with rules and exception) and bureaucracy has translated 100% into software. The interfaces, the code and coding style most of the times give me a 1980s vibe if I'm lucky, or just scare me off altogether in most cases. The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.
Yes, I get it - deleting 7 buttons gets you that $1M bonus - but it totally borks the system for the everyday driver, who then becomes less loyal.
At this point, there are very, VERY few companies I'm loyal to, because almost none are loyal to me - they'll all give "new users" better deals, and take advantage of any loyalty I have to gouge me and charge me more than a competitor.
And because all critical people hate physical buttons VWAG all new models and even concept cars now come with physical buttons on the steering wheel and dedicated climate controls outside of the touchscreen? Very weird things going on, where the things which are developed are the exact opposite of what you say the critical decision makers want.
Have you actually looked at new VWAG models or their new concept cars? Because this complaint seems to exist purely in your head.
It's COSTING them $$ to switch back - and they were losing a LOT of buyers over it. If you read any car magazines, people were constantly talking about this. Car makers are finally starting to listen - after several years of failure.
Couple a "slow-to-respond" GUI with a "everything is done via the GUI" and it's horrible.
What electric car won't? There are still 2010 Nissan Leafs on the road, and v1 Nissan Leafs had horrible battery lifetimes, lasting less than 100,000 miles. OTOH there are several Tesla's that have gone >500,000 miles on a single battery.
The stats from that article are about buying vs buying.
The cost of making a car are huge - something like 20 tonnes of c02. Vs my running cost of about 250kg per year.
If I BUY a new car it will of course be electric. But hopefully dumb. And definitely not a Volvo.
Plus, I'm pretty sure EVs will easily last 13+ years, although we have few examples, but EVs are way less complex so they should generally last longer. Even batteries seem to be doing great at 10+ years.
I shouldn't really have to explain this, but here we are.
I don't care about how you wish to split hairs because I made a minor mistake, nor do I care about your rationalisations for an obviously ridiculous critique.
But, ok, there are some similarities. Where are the other "loads of videos of your favorite blue colored ones doing the same salute?"
The US Software industry has succeeded because it is very open to rapid changes, which the nature of software allows, given the right environment.
>The code tends to be more complex, abstract, hard to read and comprehend, for no good reason.
That is exactly the incompetence I am talking about. This gets extremely bad if governments are developing software solutions, where they outsource to a variety of contractors, who all are somewhat incompetent, but together manage to create a real mess. A mess so bad that every user feels the jank.
Really? Every large Software project I have seen from the inside was as total architectural mess.
>Software salaries are actually pretty good for Europe now, as far as I know, especially... in automotive.
Not compared to the US. In the US a software engineer in a good position makes exceptional money, especially compared to other engineers. In Germany that is not the case, especially in automotive, where salaries are often union negotiated and Engineers are all on identical pay scales.
>The inital Cariad CEO was just some nondescript car industry guy - they may have tried to have a different culture, but why put a guy in charge who represents the old culture? The current Cariad CEO is a mechanical engineer by education and previously worked in production and logistics. It's baffling. They can't be that stupid (right?), so I think it's mechanical engineering resisting a loss of power and importance.
I just think that there really isn't anybody else. Is there any person somewhere in the German industry who has the ability for leadership and great software expertise? The biggest Software company in Germany is SAP and surely, hiring some SAP manager would have been an even worse decision.
Regarding the Cariad CEO, they could have hired someone from the US software industry or from a smaller company with a reputation for quality - these do exist, DeepL or Ableton for example (though leading such a small place must be quite different from a large place).
Maybe, but US people often do not understand German work culture. The Cariad CEO will have to deal with the IGM and be mindful of German labor laws and specific cultural norms.
But I do not think that you are wrong, but that the general bias to promote "one of their own" caused this.
Not sure if Hyundai & Kia are quite as reliable, but if not it's on them because they have some of the best warranties in the industry.
The days of their collaboration with Ford are long gone, and with it their body durability problems. They still collaborate with Toyota though.
Also had an issue with the backup camera cutting out. Was caused by a loose connector. Dealership was unwilling to help for free so I just cleaned the contacts and reseated the connector myself. Months later I received a recall notice with no fix available, still more months later hey finally said there was a repair but I haven’t brought it in yet.
All that said I’m still happy with the car despite these imperfections and will keep driving it until the wheels fall off, and wouldn’t have any reservations about buying a new one.
In my country used car dealers will not touch Mazda diesels for trade-ins because they always come back to them with destroyed engines.
Was a Hybrid, though that shouldn't affect this. It wouldn't save most of the settings I changed. Apparently you can either save it "to the key" (I googled how to do it, didn't work) or to your "profile" with a mobile app. I would never want to have to use my mobile to save car settings, even if I owned it, let alone a rental.
It has a feature that scans road signs and displays them on the dash. Awesome feature, which I've had in other cars before. Just in case you missed one and usually more accurate than Google maps for dynamic situations like construction zones. Unfortunately it loudly beeps and blinks at you if you happen to go over the limit or god forbid set the cruise control above the limit. This can be disabled individually but is part of the settings that don't save across car shutdowns.
Why is that an issue? Because setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality as evidenced by speed measuring displays I drove by. At 100km/h you'll probably be going 90. I learned the 6 key presses on the steering wheel to disable this after starting the car real fast. Unfortunately it disables the entire feature (else it'd be a lot more key presses and I ain't doing that). If this wasn't a rental but a purchase I'd be in this guys boat and trying to return the car.
This is just one example. The other more dire one is the cruise control. I've mentioned it elsewhere before and this Corolla isn't the only one, but the automatic breaking in these cars nowadays is dangerous. The amount of time I was sitting in the car with my foot right above the accelerator in case I need to power through an automatic breaking situation was unreal.
So glad to have been back home after vacation, driving my Subaru (with an adaptive cruise control that does not have this issue).
It's also miserable to drive because of beeping, controls that cannot be seen by the driver, and a dozen other obvious problems.
Supposedly Hyundai fixes such stuff before release, but I wouldn't risk it.
It's never been back to the dealer except for a free oil change at ~1K miles. Mainly because the reputation of Kia dealers is that it's hard to say whether you will be in worse shape if they deny or accept your warrantied repair. I mean, if the engine fails, sure, they can't make it any worse. But there are many stories of people getting a recall and the coolant system not properly bled, so the car overheats on the way home. Or a dealer refusing an obvious warranty repair for ridiculous reasons - only to try to sell you a non-warranty repair for the same problem, etc.
I am driving my car as if there is no warranty, at this point. It's been a GREAT car to drive in most ways, but I don't expect Kia to come through and fix any drivetrain issue in the next few years / 55K miles, if needed.
I will probably go with Toyota for our next car despite loving the handling and comfort of our Subaru.
Great car otherwise. Well, the CVT isn't the best for driving. But the AWD and agility and snow handling is fantastic.
I hope my current car makes it so that I can entirely skip the current gen cars to hopefully the future one with these issues sorted out, including physical buttons.
Kias EVs are even more famour for troubles, just google for Kia ICCU. Even the XC90 competitor EV9 seems to have some trouble with this still.
Outside of those issues, which don't happen on all vehicles, I view the brand as pretty rock solid. I'm impressed by how quickly they iterate, their styling, and their NVH attributes. Their pricing has crept up a bit, but still not terrible.
One local dealer refused to honor under warranty the work another dealer did.
If you have any damage (even minor cosmetic) they will blame that on your issues regardless of relativity.
(I have a Hyundai that's had the ICCU replaced once, the ABS IEB twice, and the low-voltage battery 3 times, two of the 3 times on my dime. All on a less than 3-year-old car with less than 100k miles)
The company has been miserable to deal with compared to my past experiences with other brands.
(And according to forum threads, at the time this happened to this us, stealerships were putting people on a 1-2 year waitlist for remanufactured engines, or straight-up totalling their vehicles and giving them "market value" for the car, and these models had awful resale value exactly due to these problems.)
Brand average reliability is tricky though, on their 100-point scale, their top manufacturer (Subaru) has models that range from 38-98.
Looking at the model breakdown... I kinda suspect they don’t really have enough datapoints - VW’s reliability only includes 3 models (the Tiguan, ID.4 and TAOS) - Ford has a 25-point difference between the Escape and Maverick hybrids that share the same engine/powertrain (I can’t think of any reason why the Maverick would actually be notably more reliable than the Escape unless the PHEV escape is dragging down weighted reliability by that much over the mild hybrid), etc.
In-group std is greater than between-group std.
Outside that, they are cheap cars, and mine after 10 years have some paint chips even peeling.
> While driving on Highway 13 (Montreal), the vehicle abruptly lost all throttle response
This has happened twice with a Mk II Leaf for us. The second time the dealer charged me over $100 to say "Mēh! No idea what went wrong"
Perhaps BYD? They seem to be getting it together.
As an old and grey computer programmer I do not, absolutely do not want, a "software defined vehicle". My comrades and I are renowned for unreliable crappy consumer products, where car manufacturers in the ICE era developed remarkably reliable and performant vehicles.
I really think electric cars need to be done differently, where the drive train is not dependant on my friends who "move fast and break things". My friends like these should be nowhere near automobiles.
https://www.shopforcars.com.au/news/most-reliable-electric-c...
However, this is not the case for Teslas manufactured in the US, which is why Tesla's global reliability ratings are mediocre at best.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2850680/copilot-is-coming-to...
I'm looking forward to the time when an EV can give me all of these things, and I'll eagerly purchase one when that happens.
I bought this car after owning a high-end BMW. I was looking for a car that performs well, but is very reliable.
It has been a great car, and it cost only 66% of the price that Vicken paid for his Volvo EX90.
But after reading up a bit, I've found that software platform lock-in was important in enshittification's original formulation — it's not just that quality goes to crap, but that users have nowhere else to go.
Vehicles with 7 or more years of warranty. If a brand has a hype, but short warranty like Toyota, it is only a hype.
This is very common and it's probably a deliberate choice of the manufacturer.
I know that my old car in the 90s reported 10 km/h more than the real speed and most other cars did the same, especially at low speeds. My current car is not as bad but I have to set 52 to go 50, 72 to go 70.
Furthermore some speed displays are calibrated differently. Some of them report me at 50, 47, 53 at different towns on the same route. I know I'm OK at 52 because I never got a fine.
I'm more conservative on roads that I'm not familiar with (eg: on a vacation in another country.) The general rule has always been to go at the same speed of the other cars.
Yeah I hate when that "just happens" too.
> or god forbid set the cruise control above the limit
The word limit is the key here.
> Because setting the cruise control to 50 when in a 50km/h zone will have you driving 45 in reality
Dear god! I hope you somehow made it through that insufferable experience. To think of the few seconds of your life you've irreplaceably lost! Sending a virtual hug!
Makes you wonder how open software car platform could look like and why nobody is making one.
Some companies have owners that are locked in, who know where the true value of their business lies (usually this involves a high quality product), and holds the management to account to keep the golden-egg-laying goose alive.
But other companies are owned by index funds, ETFs, and/or dumb people who don't know or care how things work. These have no defense against enshittifying.
I've bought some products that are of almost egregiously high quality, and nearly 100% of the time there's family ownership, or it's still run by the founders.
To a USAian, “European Brand” means something from Germany or Scandinavia. If you mean a Ferrari or Lamborghini, you say that name.
As for Ferrari and Lamborghini it doesn't matter what Consumer Reports thinks.
Theres a lot more cities in the US and a lot more "European" cars than German/Swedish.
VWAG owns the largest Spanish car maker, Seat/Cupra. 100% of cars Seat/Cupra sells are VW derivatives. Whatever you imagine the difference between Spanish cars and German cars to be, it is not real.
>French/Italian
Renault is a very different company then Stellantis (Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot).
What you should compare is the parent company making these cars.
>Plus you have some luxury British cars, which are again veery different.
Lotus is a Geely brand, just like Volvo is a Geely brand, some of their cars are on the same platform. Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot are Stellantis brands.
The only spanish car maker is SEAT and it's part of VAG group. SEAT are more expensive than Skoda, but cheaper than Audi.
And using the country card with these automaker corporations is very tricky, because they have factories everywhere. You can buy an Audi made in Spain or a VW made in Slovakia.
That said, a few months ago my daughter was t-boned in it by a driving going 60+ MPH. The impact was directly on the driver’s door. She not only survived, but did so with only superficial facial cuts and some longer-term, back pain.
I can’t be too hard on a car that saved my daughter’s life.
However, as it applies to the parent comment, I can't actually say too much about reliability, as both of them were driven primarily on weekends and _maybe_ 2K miles per year.
I also have a Miata (ND - 4th gen) that gets driven less than 3K miles/year. No problems there other than Mazda’s buggy CarPlay (and insane choice to disable the touchscreen when in motion).
I definitely expected more Hyundai when I bought the most expensive EV they had to offer at the highest trim level available.
On the plus side a lot of the Genesis vehicles seem like they slap every option the Germans make you pay $1000s each for into the base model, so decent value from that perspective.
I've sat in their EV hatch thing the GV60 in showroom and was impressed by the base features set. I also had a decent length uber ride sitting in the back of their ICE sedan, either the G80 or G90 and it was a nice executive sedan. My backseat reclined, it had motorized shades, the air vents in the back were actually powerful, etc.
The CVT sort of sucks. Mostly ok but we have a long lag between reverse and drive which causes the car to jerk forward if you try to accelerate before the forward motion starts. The turning radius is amazing though.
My father in law is a Toyota mechanic and warned me to get rid of the car before 100k miles though as more recent subies are as reliable as they used to be.