Model intelligence is no longer the constraint for automation(latentintent.substack.com) |
Model intelligence is no longer the constraint for automation(latentintent.substack.com) |
Let us assume that the author's premise is correct, and LLMs are plenty powerful given the right context. Can an LLM recognize the context deficit and frame the right questions to ask?
They can not: LLMs have no ability to understand when to stop and ask for directions. They routinely produce contradictions, fail simple tasks like counting the letters in a word etc. etc. They can not even reliably execute my "ok modify this text in canvas" vs "leave canvas alone, provide suggestions in chat, apply an edit once approved" instructions.
(not saying you are wrong, necessarily, but I don't think this argument holds water)
I don't think I stated an assumption, this is an assertion, worded rhetorically. You are welcome to disagree with it and refute it, but its structural role is not that of an assumption.
"Can an LLM recognize the context deficit and frame the right questions to ask?"
> a bunch of non-sequitors
I'm guessing you're referring to the "canvas or not" bit? The sequitir there was that LLMs routinely fail to execute simple instructions for which they have all the context.
> not saying you are wrong
Happy to hear counterarguments of course, but I do not yet see an argument for why what I said was not structurally coherent as counterexamples, nor anything that weakens the specifics of what I said.
It is like the author is saying 12 is a prime number and I am like but I divided it by 2 just the other day.
In our application e use a multi-step check_knowledge_base workflow before and after each LLM request. Pretty much, make a separate LLM request to check the query against the existing context to see if more info is needed, and a second check after generation to see if output text exceeded it's knowledge base.
And the results are really good. Now coding agents in your example are definitely stepwise more complex, but the same guardrails can apply.
They are unreliable at that. They can't reliably judge LLM outputs without access to the environment where those actions are executed and sufficient time to actually get to the outcomes that provide feedback signal.
For example I was working on evaluation for an AI agent. The agent was about 80% correct, and the LLM judge about 80% accurate in assessing the agent. How can we have self correcting AI when it can't reliably self correct? Hence my idea - only the environment outcomes over a sufficient time span can validate work. But that is also expensive and risky.
For example, the article above was insightful. But the authors pointing to 1,000s of disparate workflows that could be solved with the right context, without actually providing 1 concrete example of how he accomplishes this makes the post weaker.
It's all about tools. Given sufficient tooling, the model's inherent abilities become irrelevant. Give a model a tool that counts characters and it will get this question right 100% of the time. Copy and paste to your domain. And what are tools but a means of providing context from the real world? People seem blinded by focusing on the raw abilities of models, missing the fact that these things should be seen simply as reasoning engines for tool usage.
I haven't read TFA so I may be missing the point. However, I have had success getting Claude to stop and ask for directions by specifically prompting it to do so. "If you're stuck or the task seems impossible, please stop and explain the problem to me so I can help you."
Let's take driving a car as an example, and a random decision generator as a lower bound on the intelligence of the driver.
- A professionally trained human, who is not fatigued or unhealthy or substance-impaired, rarely makes a mistake, and when they do, there are reasonable mitigating factors.
- ML models, OTOH, are very brittle and probabilistic. A model trained on blue tinted windshields may suffer a dramatic drop in performance if ran on yellow-tinted windshields.
Models are unpredictably probabilistic. They do not learn a complete world model, but the very specific conditions and circumstances of their training dataset.
They continue to get better, and you are able to induce a behavior similar to true intelligence more and more often. In your case, you are able to get them to stop and ask, but if they had the ability to do this reliably, they would not make mistakes as agents at all. Right now they resemble intelligence under a very specific light, and as the regimes under which they resemble one get bigger, they will get to AGIs. But we're not there yet.
However flawed, what I said did have a structure (please refer to my other response in this thread for why).
At some point we should probably take a step back and ask “Why do we want to solve this problem?” Is a world where AI systems are highly intelligent tools, but humans are needed to manage the high level complexity of the real world… supposed to be a disappointing outcome?
So the bottleneck is intelligence.
Junior engineers are intelligent enough to understand when they don't understand. They interrogate the intent and context of the tasks they are given. This is intelligence.
Solving math questions is not intelligence, computers have been better than humans at that for like 100 years, as long as you first do the intelligent part as a human: specifying the task formally.
Now we just have computer programs with another kind of input in natural language, and which require dozens of gigabytes of video ram and millions of cores to execute. And we still have to have humans to the intelligent part, figure out how to describe the problem so the dumb but very very fast machine can answer the question.
They can recall prior reasoning from text they are trained on which allows them to handle complex tasks that have been solved before, but when working on complex, novel, or nuanced tasks there is no high quality relevant training data to recall.
Intelligence has always been a fraught word to define and I don't think what LLMs do is the right attribute for defining it.
I agree with a good deal of the article but because it keeps using loaded works like "intelligent" and "smarter", it has a hard time explaining what's missing.
BTW I'm open to selling it, my email is on my hn profile.
So the missing ingredient for AI is access to environment for feedback learning. It has little to do with AI architecture or datasets. I think a huge source of such data is our human-LLM chat logs. We act as LLM eyes, hands and feed on the ground. We carry the tacit knowledge and social context. OpenAI reports billions of tasks per day, probably trillions of tokens of interactive language combining human, AI and feedback from the environment. Maybe this is how AI can inch towards learning how to solve real world problems, it is part of the loop of problem solving, and benefits from having this data for training.
In my use of cursor as a coding assistant, this is the primary problem. The code is 90% on the mark, but still buggy, and needs verification, and the feedback it gets from me is not with full fidelity as something is lost in translation.
But, a bigger issue is that AI has only some solution templates for problems that it is trained on, and being able to generate new templates is beyond its capability as that requires training on datasets of higher levels of abstration.
Intelligence is the bottleneck, but not the kind of intelligence you need to solve puzzles.
Verification solves the human in the loop dependency both for AI and human tasks. All the places where we could automate in the past, there were clearly quality checks which ensured the machinery were working as expected. Same thing will be replicated with AI too.
Disclaimer: I have been working on building a universal verifier for AI tasks. The way it works is you give it a set of rules (policy) + AI output (could be human output too) and it outputs a scalar score + clause level citations. So I have been thinking about the problem space and might be over rating this. Would welcome contrarian ideas. (no, it's not llm as a judge)
[1]: Some people may call it environment based learning, but in ML terms i feel it's different. That woudl be another example of sv startups using technical terms to market themselves when they dont do what they say.
I guess fuzzing and property-based testing could mitigate this to some extent.
OTOH, I also think a lot of science is like 1% inspiration, 99% very mundane tasks like data cleaning. So no reason the AI can't help with that. And scientists write terrible code, so the bar is low :-)
> Longer term, we can reduce the human bottleneck by
Thank God we have ways to remove the thorn in our(?) side for good. The world can finally heal when the pursuit of fulfillment becomes inaccessible to the masses.
To be able to reason about the rules of a game so trivial that it has been solved for ages, so that it can figure out enough strategy to never not bring the game to a draw (if played against one who is playing to not lose), or a win (if played against someone who is leaving the bot an opening to win), as mentioned in [0] and probably a squillion other places?
Duh?
But I have a different challenge for you: train a human to play tictactoe, but never allow them to see the game visually, even in examples. You have to train them to play only by spoken words.
Point being that tictactoe is a visual game and when you're only teaching a model to learn from the vast sea of stream-of-tokens (similar to stream-of-phonemes) language, visual games like this aren't going to be well covered in the training set, nor is it going to be easy to generalize to playing them.
In Asimov’s robots stories the spacers are long lived and low population because robots do most everything. He presents this as a dead end, that stops us from conquering the galaxy. This to me sounds like a feature not a bug. I think human existence could be quite good with large scale automation, fewer people, and less suffering due to the necessity for everyone to be employed.
Note I recognize you’re not saying exactly the same thing as I’m saying. I think humans will never cede full executive control by choice at some level. But I suspect, sadly, power will be confined to those few who do get to manage the high level complexity of the real world.
Kaczynski's warnings seem more apt with every year that passes.
It's a difficult and crucial problem, we all agree, but it's a stretch to define intelligence as such to be "describing the problem." Choosing the right problem in the first place (i.e. not just telling person B to do X but selecting the X that in fact is worth pursuing), perhaps, but I don't think that's right either as a definition of intelligence. Indeed, even the best scientists often speak of an "intuition" that drives their choice of problems.
More classical definitions place intelligence in the domain of "means-ends rationality", i.e. given an end to pursue being capable of determining the correct way to do so and carrying it out until completion. A calculator like a hammer is certainly not intelligent in that sense, but I would struggle to see how even an AI skeptic could maintain that state-of-the-art LLMs today are not a qualitative step above calculators according to this measure.
Whenever the LLM fails to act intelligently, we blame the person who gave it the task. So we don't expect them to be able to figure anything out, we are just treating them as easily reconfigurable Skinner boxes.
I'm not an expert or even very interested in the field so I cannot judge what you propose, only intuit from the word "intelligence" and how these machines are described to work and how I observe them working. Reading a bit of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence leads me to believe these machines have even less to do with any classical definition of intelligence, but I did notice that
> Scholars studying artificial intelligence have proposed definitions of intelligence that include the intelligence demonstrated by machines
which seems rather relevant. Yeah when the AI researchers describe intelligence the machines are intelligent.
Eh, I wouldn't apply that as if it's a general thing. yes, the really good ones do. many will equally plough through into the mud with albeit admirable determination.
only they work for free and produce megabytes of stupid code per hour
A human will struggle, but they will recognize the things they need to know, and seek out people who may have the relevant information. If asked "how are things going" they will reliably be able to say "badly, I don't have anything I need".
What do you mean by 'context' in this context? As written, I believe that I could knock down your claim by pointing out that there exist humans who would do catastrophically poorly at a task that other humans would excel at, even if both humans have been fully informed of all of the same context.
Imagine that someone said:
> I think wood is the primary primitive property of sawmills in general.
An obvious observation would be that it is dreadfully difficult to produce the expected product of a sawmill without tools to cut or sand or otherwise shape the wood into the desired shapes.
One might also notice that while a sawmill with no wood to work on will not produce any output, a sawmill with wood but without woodworking tools is vanishingly unlikely to produce any output... and any it does manage to produce is not going to be good enough for any real industrial purpose.
Basically give the LLM a computer to do all kinds of stuff against the real world, kick it off with a high level goal like “build a startup”.
The key is to instruct it to manage its own memory in its computer, and when context limit inevitably approaches, programmatically interrupt the LLM loop and instruct it to jot down everything it has for its future self.
It already kinda works today, and I believe AI systems a year from now will excel at this:
But the algorithms they teach humans in school to do long-hand arithmetic (which are liable to be the only algorithms demonstrated in the training data) require a single unique numeral for every digit.
This is the same source as the problem of counting "R"'s in "Strawberry".
But humans don't see single digits, we learn to parse noisy visual data into single digits and then use those single digits to do the math.
It is much easier for these models to understand what the number is based on the tokens and parse that than it is for a visual model to do it based on an image, so getting those tokens streamed straight into its system makes its problem to solve much much simpler than what humans do. We weren't born able to read numbers, we learn that.
i only call this out because you're selling it and don't hypothesize* on why they fail your simple problems. i suppose an easily aced bench wouldn't be very marketable
Most of the time they make a correct summation table but fail to copy correctly the sum result into a final result. That is not a tokenisation problem (you can change the output format to make sure of it). I have a separated benchmark that test specifically this, when the input is too large, the LLMs fails to accuratly copy the correct token. I suppose the positional embedding, are not perfectly learned and it sometimes cause a mistake.
The prompt is quite short, it use structured output, and I can generate a nice graph of % of good response accross difficulity of the question (which is just the total digit count of the input numbers.
LLMs have 100% success rate on theses sum until they reach a frontier, past that their accuracy collapse at various speed depending of the model.
> All indications are that it will continue to become smarter.
I'm not disputing that, every new model score better at my benchmark, but right now, none truly "solve" one of these small logic problem.
Neither can many humans, including some very smart ones. Even those who can will usually choose to use a calculator (or spreadsheet or whatever) rather than doing the arithmetic themselves.
1) GPT-5 is advertised as "PhD-level intelligence". So, I take OpenAI (and anyone else who advertises their bots with language like this) at their word about the bot's capabilities and constrain the set of humans I use for comparison to those who also have PhD-level intelligence.
2) Any human who has been introduced to long addition will absolutely be able to compute the sum of two whole numbers of arbitrary length. You may have to provide them a sufficiently strong incentive to actually do it long-hand, but they absolutely are capable because the method is not difficult. I'm fairly certain that most adult humans [0] (regardless of whether or not they have PhD-level intelligence) find the method to be trivial, if tedious.
[0] And many human children!
618
753
294- but tokens are not letters - but humans fail too - just wait, we are on an S curve to AGI - but your prompt was incorrect - but I tried and here it works
Meanwhile, their claims:
- LLMs are performing at PhD levels. - AGI is around the corner - humanity will be wiped out - situational awareness report
However, I'd expect that "Appearing to fail to reason well enough to know how to always fail to lose, and -if the opportunity presents itself- win at one of the simplest games there is." is absolutely not a desired outcome for OpenAI, or any other company that's burning billions of dollars producing LLMs.
If their robot was currently reliably capable of adequate performance at Tic Tac Toe, it absolutely would be exhibiting that behavior.
WolframAlpha is a more impressive front end to a calculator than I've seen out of LLMs. Not only does it show me how it translated my natural-ish language query but it shows me potential alternative interpretations to my question. LLMs by the nature of how training works can't necessarily tell me why and how they interpreted my prompt. The thinking models are better but still not great.
So every message that gets generated by the first LLM is then passed to a second series of LLM requests + a distilled version of the legislation. ex: "Does this message imply likelihood of credit approval (True/False)". Then we can score the original LLM response based on that rubric.
All of the compliance checks are very standardized, and have very little reasoning requirements, since they can mostly be distilled into a series of ~20 booleans.
If it actually did solve the problem then they would train the models to act that way by default, so anything that you need to make smart prompts for has to be dumb.
Even when the algorithm steps are laid out precisely, they cannot be followed. Perhaps, LLMs should be trained on turing machine specs and be given a tape lol.
Constraint satisfaction and combinatorics are where the search space is exponential, and the techniques are not formalized (not enough data in training set), and remain hard for machines as seen in the Problem 6 of IMO which could not be solved by LLMs. I suspect, there is this aspect of human intelligence which is not yet captured in LLMs.
[1] - https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/illusion-of-think...
The temp 0.7-1.0 defaults are not designed for reconstructing context with perfect accuracy.
{ "error": { "message": "Unsupported value: 'temperature' does not support 0.0 with this model. Only the default (1) value is supported.", "type": "invalid_request_error", "param": "temperature", "code": "unsupported_value" } }
A portion of the system prompt was specifically instructing the LLM that math problems are, essentially, "special", and that there is zero tolerance for approximation or imprecision with these queries.
To some degree I get the issue here. Most queries are full of imprecision and generalization, and the same type of question may even get a different output if asked in a different context, but when it comes to math problems, we have absolutely zero tolerance for that. To us this is obvious, but when looking from the outside, it is a bit odd that we are so loose and sloppy with, well basically everything we do, but then we put certain characters in a math format, and we are hyper obsessed with ultra precision.
The actual system prompt section for this was funny though. It essentially said "you suck at math, you have a long history of sucking at math in all contexts, never attempt to do it yourself, always use the calculation tools you are provided."
But for daily application, use a close approximation, round it off.. o/~
"Do task x" and "Is this answer to task x correct?" are two very different prompts and aren't guaranteed to have the same failure modes. They might, but they might not.
This is not quite the same situation. It's also the core conceit of self-healing file systems like ZFS. In the case of ZFS it not only stores redundant data but redundant error correction. It allows failures to not only be detected but corrected based on the ground truth (the original data).
In the case of an LLM backstopping an LLM, they both have similar probabilities for errors and no inherent ground truth. They don't necessarily memorize facts in their training data. Even with a RAG the embeddings still aren't memorized.
It gives you a constant probability for uncorrectable bullshit. One of the biggest problems with LLMs is the opportunity for subtle bullshit. People can also introduce subtle errors recalling things but they can be held accountable when that happens. An LLM might be correct nine out of ten times with the same context or only incorrect given a particular context. Even two releases of the same model might not introduce the error the same way. People can even prompt a model to error in a particular way.
Empirical facts are the strongest thing we have in this domain.
I don't think no argument is the right substitute for a bad one!
LLM's struggle with simple maths by nature of their architecture not due to a lack of logic. Yes it struggles with logic questions too but they're not directly related here.
No, if it was good at logic it would have overcame that tiny architectural hurdle, its such a trivial process to convert tokens to numbers that it is ridiculous for you to suggest that is the reason it fails at math.
The reason it fails at math is because it fails at logic, and math is the most direct set of logic we have. It doesn't fail at converting between formats, it can convert strawberry to correct Base64 encoding, meaning it does know exactly what letters are there, it just lacks to logic to actually understand what "count letters" means.
An analogy (probably poor) is like asking a human to see UV light. We can do so but only with tools or by removing our lense.
The fact that SOTA models (not yet publicly available) can achieve gold at IOM implies otherwise.
Of course, if you give me 100 10-digit numbers to add up and let me use a calculator, or pencil and paper, then I will probably get it right.
Same for, say, two 100-digit numbers. (I can probably get that one right without tools if you obligingly print them monospaced and put one of them immediately above the other where I can look at them.)
Anyway, the premise here seems to be simply false. I just gave ChatGPT and Claude (free versions of both; ChatGPT5, whatever specific model it routed my query to, and Sonnet 4) a list of 100 random 10-digit numbers to add up, with a prompt encouraging them to be careful about it but nothing beyond that (e.g., no specific strategies or tools to use), and both of them got the right total. Then I did the same with two 100-digit numbers and both of them got that right too.
Difficulty is the amount of digits, small models struggle with 10 digits numbers, gemini and gpt-5 are very good recent models, gemini start failing before 40 digits, GPT-5 (the one by api, the online chat version is worse and I didn't tested it) can do more than 120 digits (at this point it's pointless to test for more).
Of course, I only ran it once; I can't at all rule out the possibility that sometimes it gets it wrong. But, again, the same is true of humans.
> That’s interesting, you added a tool.
The "tool" in this case, is a memory aid. Because they are computer programs running inside a fairly-ordinary computer, the LLMs have exactly the same sort of tool available to them. I would find a claim that LLMs don't have a free MB or so of RAM to use as scratch space for long addition to be unbelievable.
Plenty of retired people carry on doing things too
Or maybe not. I'll never know.
the rest of the time I spend studying and doing sports. I've tried doing nothing - but boredom is actually worse than work.
what I really want is for other people to also be in a similar situation. I also want to be able to afford to just not work for 6 months and travel the world - but I've got a mortgage to pay. so I think further reductions in scarcity in my life would not reduce my drive to do, learn, experience one bit.
I suspect that most people would be the same if they weren't accustomed to not having the energy to look after themselves and growing their mind.
In a "post scarcity" world we will figure out how to make certain things scarce and more desirable. Then people will start gaming the system to try to acquire the more expensive/scarce items. Some will even make it their life mission to acquire the intentionally scarce items/experiences.
Basically, the same situation we have now.
Kaczynski didn't invent any of these ideas, or even develop them, instead of citing him, why not cite... Literally any other person with them whose mind wasn't blown out by LSD and a desire to commit random political murder.
You're doing your point a disservice by bringing in all of that baggage.
I don't agree with many of his conclusions or actions, but I have no problem judging the good ideas he advocated on their own merit.
Yes.
>Kaczynski
You're citing a psychopathic terrorist who murdered 3 people and injured a further 23.
>what motivation will you have to do anything?
For one thing, freedom from self-appointed taskmasters who view Kaczynski as a source of inspiration.
They do have something a bit like it: their "context window", the amount of input and recently-generated output they get to look at while generating the next token. Claude Sonnet 4 has 1M tokens of context, but e.g. Opus 4.1 has only 200k and I think GPT-5 has 256k. And it doesn't really behave like "scratch space" in any useful sense; e.g., the models can't modify anything once it's there.
I also agree that we will never have a post scarcity society; but this is more about humanity than technology.
Maybe food won't be scarce (we wre actually very close to that) and shelter may not be scarce but, even if you invent the replicator, there will still be things that are bespoke.
Relative to 500 years ago, we have already nearly achieved post-scarcity for a few types of items, like basic clothing.
It seems this is yet another concept for which we need to adjust our understanding from binary to a spectrum, as we find our society advancing along the spectrum, in at least some aspects.
Safety needs might be possible to solve. Totalitarian states with ubiquitous panopticons can leave you "safe" in a crime sense, and AI gaslighting and happy pills will make you "feel" safe.
Love and belonging we have "Plenty" of already - If you're looking for your people, you can find them. Plenty aren't willing to look.
But once you get up to Esteem, it all falls apart. Reputation and Respect are not scalable. There will always be a limited quantity of being "The Best" at anything, and many are not willing to be "The Best" within tight constraints; There's always competition. You can plausibly say that this category is inherently competitive. There's no respect without disrespect. There's no best if there's no second best, and second best is first loser. So long as humans interact with each other - So long as we're not each locked in our own private shards of reality - There will be competition, and there will be those that fall short.
Self Actualization is almost irrelevant at this point. It falls into exactly the same as the above. You can simulate a reality where someone is always the best at whatever they decide to so, but I think it will inherently feel hollow. Agent Smith said it best: https://youtu.be/9Qs3GlNZMhY?t=23
Still, to pick a simple example, we do have different sports at which different people are "The Best". One solution would be to multiple the categories, which I feel is already happening to some extent with all the computer games or niche artistical trends.
And I would claim that very few people are "The Best", it's mostly about not being "the worst" at everything you are involved in.
