An Update on Pytype(github.com) |
An Update on Pytype(github.com) |
as an aside, while I agree that bytecode-based analysis has its drawbacks, I think it's a tool worth having in the overall python toolbox. I spun off pycnite from pytype in the hope that anyone else who wanted to experiment with it would have an easier time getting started - https://github.com/google/pycnite
I have recently jumped onto the "write python tooling in rust" bandwagon and might look into a rust reimplementation of pycnite at some point, because I still feel that bytecode analysis lets you reuse a lot of work the compiler has already done for you.
abstract interpretation of the bytecode like y'all were doing is the only way to robustly do type inference in python.
> https://github.com/google/pycnite
there's also https://github.com/MatthieuDartiailh/bytecode which is a good collection
https://mopsa.lip6.fr/#features
It also has more abstraction domains than „just“ the type of objects.
I know Go and Rust are the belles du jour, but this kind of thing really hampers integrators' ability to support platforms other than x86-64 and armv8. In my particular case, it results in me being unable to build software that depends on pyca/cryptography on platforms like s390x, which makes me sad. It also makes development environment management, including CI/CD pipeline maintenance, that much more complicated. It was already bad enough when I was trying to compile binary distributions on Windows, and that was just with the Visual C++ toolchain mess that is the Microsoft development experience.
As Steve notes, Rust does support s390x. Even prior to shipping Rust code, we never tested or claimed to support s390x.
If there's genuine interest in more people supporting s390x in the open source world, folks will need to do the work to make it possible to build, test, and run CI on it. IBM recently contributed official PPC64le support to pyca/cryptography (by way of Github Actions runners so we could test and build in CI), and they've been responsive on weird platform issues we've hit (e.g., absl not support ppc64le on musl: https://github.com/pyca/infra/pull/710#issuecomment-31789057...). That level of commitment is what's really required to make a platform practical, treating "well, it's in C and every platform has a C compiler" as the sum total of support wasn't realistic.
It's important for projects to distinguish between "this might or might not work but it's nobody's job to support it" versus "people depend on this and will keep it working", so that people don't build on the former and think it's the latter. The latter requires active support and widespread user/developer interest, as well as comparable support from the upstream projects you build on (something shouldn't be tier 1 for you if it's tier 3 for one of your critical dependencies).
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43673439 for a comment from last time this came up.
s390x is currently supported by Rust, at tier 2, including host tools: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/platform-support/s39... .
That doesn't feel great to me.
I used to be very much in the "write your language tools in the language and the community will contribute" camp, but astral has really shown what a big difference pure speed can make, and I now have more of a "write tools in rust and ideally make sure they also expose libraries that you can call from python" mindset.
However I fully agree with you, the tooling for a given language should be written in the language itself, and it is an ecosystem failure when it doesn't happen.
I also feel that this trend, as usual, is people building their portfolio in the current trendy languages.
I used Pytype at Google years ago and while it's well written and the team was responsive, ultimately Python is not well suited for type checking Python. It's compute intensive.
I think the Ty people at Astral have the correct idea, and hope it'll work out.
> What alternatives can I consider? There are four Python static type checkers that can be considered: mypy and Pyright have been released to the community for a while and have well established user bases. Pyrefly, ty were announced recently at PyCon US 2025 and are in active development stage in the current time of August 2025 when this was written.
mypy - https://github.com/python/mypy
Pyright - https://github.com/microsoft/pyright
Pyrefly - https://github.com/facebook/pyrefly
Google lays off its Python team | Hacker News https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40171125
1. it had powerful type inference over partially or even completely unannotated code, which meant no one has to go back and annotate the very large pre-type-checking codebase.
2. it had a file-at-a-time architecture which was specifically meant to handle the large monorepo without trying to load an entire dependency tree into memory at once, while still doing cross-module analysis
there were a couple of attempts to get mypy running within google, but the impedance mismatch was just too great.
The various features mypy didn't support include speed, type inference/graduality, and partial checking in the presence of syntax errors (for linter/interactive usecases and code completion).
I'm currently using pyright, but I'm going to migrate once ty and its vscode extension are given the "production ready" greenlight.
Google sucks.
Developers: mypy, pyright, pyrefly, ty, pypy, nogil, faster-python, sub-interpreters, free-threading, asyncio, ...
It supports the entirety of JDK-compatible packages and FFI/JNI bindings, which is a fair point of the comparison. Not sure why you have to frame it around the idea of necessarily having to improve Python, as the JDK infra and tooling have been around for ages, available to be picked by the devs.
In practice, there is no longer a pytype team at Google [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40171125], which I suspect is the real reason for the discontinuation.
Especially when, in my experience, each checker produces slightly different results on the same code, effectively creating its own slightly different language dialect with the associated fragmentation cost. In theory that cost could be avoided through more rigorous standardization efforts to ensure all the checkers work exactly the same way. But that would also reduce the benefit of writing a new type checker, since there would be less room to innovate or differentiate.
the current generation (mostly ty and pyrefly right now, though major props to pyright for being ahead of the curve) is moving towards fast, incremental type checking with LSP integration, and pytype was never going to get there. it's fundamentally a slow, batch-based type checker, which will catch a lot of errors in your project, but which will never be usable as an incremental type checker within your ide. add that to the fact that it had a different philosophy of type checking from most of the other major checkers and you had users facing the issue that their code would be checked one way by pyright in the ide, and then a subtly different way by pytype in the CI pipeline.
I loved my time working on pytype, and I would like to see some of its features added to pyrefly, but it has definitely been superseded by now.
Is there a good reason to avoid using Pyrefly?
Wouldn't the other way around be easier for finding good tools? Figure out what matters to you, inspect if the project fulfills those needs and then go with it after making sure it works well for you.
Regardless, a comparison between the two was posted to HN not too long time ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44107655
While we are in alpha, and there are plenty of open issues we are still working through, I think Pyrefly is actually pretty usable already, especially for code navigation.
```python
ModelName = NewType("ModelName", str)
# You bind your string within a module: binder.bind(ModelName, to=ModelName(parsed_args.model_name))
# When you need it: model_name = injector.get(ModelName) # Here it fails, saying that you need "concrete" types or something similar
```
So while it is great already it definitely still has many rough edges still. But it is to be expected from alpha releases
Inline::Python
Inline::Perl5
certainly I see the economic sense in continuing with Python, but for some folks there’s a limit to how much lipstick you want on your pig
I agree, and Pyrefly seemed good; I was just wondering why people don't mention it.
Thank you for the comparison thread and post, I've read it and found it useful! Thanks to that post I know ty has a "gradual typing" philosophy, which I disprefer.
> /!\ Warning
> ty is in preview and is not ready for production use.
> We're working hard to make ty stable and feature-complete, but until then, expect to encounter bugs, missing features, and fatal errors.
Pyrefly spits put around 200 errors for the same codebase.
Most errors are related to SQLAlchemy.
Perhaps you should do the upgrade (https://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/20/changelog/whatsnew_20.html...) and try again?