The World's Lightest Electric Vehicle(kickstarter.com) |
The World's Lightest Electric Vehicle(kickstarter.com) |
Ought to produce a few Darwin Award winners.
In all the startups we've funded I don't think I've seen one whose product was so enthusiastically embraced by YC partners. Three bought one of these boards. One says it "changed his life."
We are still refining our transmission design, but even in its current form, we haven't had a bearing issue or motor failure in the past year of continuous and rigorous testing.
That's like saying, who would ever buy a MacBook Pro?
Why, just can just buy a motherboard, a block of aluminium, some commodity chips.
Just break out the vertical mill and soldering iron and spend a few weekends on it.
Why spend $1300 on $500 of components?
Well, its not a Segway yet, but seem like we're getting there. But maybe this is the optimum already.
edit: found it [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/segway.html
One says it "changed his life."
I realized my world was divided into: places I could walk to, places I could bike to, and places I could drive to.
Where I live (downtown Palo Alto), driving is a hassle because of traffic and parking. Driving is annoying, boring, frustrating, life-wasting... basically I hate driving and use it only as a last resort.
Walking is great, but it's slow. It's really time-consuming to walk anywhere beyond a few blocks.
Biking is pretty fast, but still a bit of a hassle because I have to bring a heavy U-lock and worry about my bike. "Where is my bike and is it OK?" is always in the back of my head, which makes it harder to enjoy whatever I'm doing. Also biking doesn't leave any hands free to carry things.
Now I have a Boosted Board with a 6-mile range. For any trip under 3 miles, it is:
* Faster than walking, biking, or driving.
* More fun.
* No extra hassle, nothing to worry about.
* Leaves 2 hands free to carry stuff like groceries.
So it's opened up this whole 3 mile radius of things around me that I previously wouldn't go to. Now these places feel like they're at my fingertips. It feels like my world got smaller.
They'd certainly be illegal in the UK... which somewhat reduces the possibility of fun things.
It was a lot more expensive back then: $4,000 for the 1984 Chevy Blazer and $0 dollars for an extension cord we found in the garage, but going going fast on a skateboard, no matter what the method, is dangerous.
The worst part of this idea is "braking". I can assure you the only good way to brake a skate board at speed is a power slide, which you need to be an expert to do.
I've hit sand at speed and, even knowing it was coming, the slight braking power of the sand was enough to throw me. It's difficult to explain, but between knowing how far to lean against the braking force AND managing your balance side to side on the trucks, it ends up being harder to pull off than a good ole power slide.
That said, a roller blade version of this would be cool.
It is astonishing (and more than a little awesome) that you can pack 2kw of motor power and so much range into so small a space now. Oh how I wish parts like this had been available in 1989.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Californi...
But I'm wondering about the prices. $10 stickers and $40 t-shirts are still advertising, so people are paying to advertise for your company? That doesn't seem right.
In reality, they are really trying to push people to spend $1200 for a board. Even the $1099 pledge is a complete rip-off since you spend $100 less than the pledge that gets you a board, and they only give you a $100 coupon when you buy your first board for full price. That doesn't make sense.
A suggestion: create a small batch (5) of $500 or $700 pledges that provide a board. That kicks everyone into gear to get that pledge as soon as possible and fight over the $500 pledge spot.
Kind of a big difference in battery size from the Zboard to the Boosted Board. Quoted mileage is not that different either. Given that the board has to move a human at 20Mph I would wager that the smaller of the two batteries is not big enough. Its barely larger than a couple of mobile phone batteries.
They say the motor is rated at 2kw. Something that size using that much power is going to get pretty hot and the wires and battery are also going to get hot. I'm pretty sure that brushless motors don't like working at low RPM (anything less than about 10,000rpm) Looking at the transmission and wheel size, at 20mph those wheels are going at 1,100rpm. Which means the motors are probably doing about 2-3 times that. Under high load (like this) brushed and brushless motors are comparable efficiency.
I'd love to see a prototype of this but the motors and batteries don't seem powerful enough (having been a model car enthusiast for many years) - I'd love to be proved wrong. I wanted to put some brushless motors on my bike but after doing the calcs never got any further than the drawing board.
ZBoard seems more realistic to me.
I would have to try them both out to see which is a better solution to the control problem.
edit: another key difference is that this is 12 pounds vs the 30 to 37 pounds for the zboard. That difference is HUGE.
I've ridden longboards with both foot and hand brakes. All the hand braking boards I've tried had a cable from the board to the controls and even with that hassle, I much prefer them to the foot brakes. Moving your foot around and trying to get even pressure at 20mph is a lot more tricky than squeezing a lever.
Really? I think we've had it solved for at least several million years. Anyone that isn't capable of walking or skating a mile is certainly not going to be served by this. It looks like a cool toy, but I don't think it's going to revolutionize transportation.
I'd love to have one.
Why not sell it by what it is (a very cool electric longboard), instead of making surreal claims about changing the world?
edit: Also, after these boards do reach final production, do you plan on expanding your tech to other loaded longboards? Never loved the vanguard, but the tan tien is great.
I would recommend a direct drive motor though, less parts to break, direct torque.
If you were really against walking or pushing, then a foldable bike would be a lot more useful, safer and cheaper.
1) You can't longboard up a hill, or even much of an incline. 2) More importantly, when you go _down_ a hill, it's pretty difficult to stop quickly (this is why I personally stopped longboarding)
This device would help with both problems!
This might help you stop the longboard quickly, but will it help you stop quickly (but not too quickly)?
I commute on my longboard every day between the parking structure on campus and my building, which is about a mile away - takes me 10 minutes of kicking the board around and working up a sweat.
An electric longboard woud fit right into my current commute, except I'd arrive at work without my shirt soaked through.
For this type of commuting, a couple of days practice in a empty parking garage or lot gets you good enough to safely commute, and if the SF hills are intimidating, you can always walk down them.
As for braking, they indicate that the remote does have a brake slider, and by using regenerative braking, they can slow the board down (to some extent). You would still need to know how to brake the board, but the board can stop itself.
This would also be a super fun toy - I already take my longboard out to race down hills, with this I get to ride up before I fly down.
But, a rollerblade version? Can you explain how that doesn't have the same concerns you raised? Rollerblades are even more difficult to brake than skateboards, and you're committed on rollerblades, while on a skateboard you can jump off and carry the board whenever it's inappropriate or too difficult to ride it. There's also zero cost to hopping on a skateboard, while rollerblades involves sitting down and changing your shoes.
I doubt this product will fix all of the transportation woes of the US (which their marketing seems to point to), but it's great for current longboarders and people already interested in unconventional transportation options.
Jeeze, I guess I did, I must be getting old. It is a cool idea.
>But, a rollerblade version? Can you explain...
Setup aside, going fast on roller blades is much more controlled than on a skateboard. You can't bail, sure, but you also won't get the death wobbles.
At speed, you can inline your feet (one foot in front of the other) and put 80% of your weight on your back foot, since the only instability is front to back. This guards you against pebbles, cracks, and what not. You have the same side to side stability as a someone riding a bike.
Skateboards at speed have instability front to back (obviously your weight is back to guard against pebbles, etc..) but also side to side. Keeping the death wobbles away takes a lot of practice.
Behind the Blazer I got up to 45Mph on my blades, but not even close to that on a skate board (with tight trucks and soft wheels). At the time I considered myself to be about equal in terms of skill with both.
(edit for line break)
Wouldn't it be very different braking by yourself than being slowed down by anything on the road? You control exactly the speed and brake force you apply to the board so you can balance/react. I see the guys in the video doing pretty well.
Physics of a table attached to a car using a rope are very different from this.
A power slide is one way to stop, but brakes work just fine. The reason the sand throws people isn't because they're slowing down, it's that they don't expect it and can't predict how quickly it will slow them down. Decent brakes have neither of those problems.
If I'm going 20mph, "braking" to me means coming to a stop in an equivalent distance as a car or bike going the same speed.
Are the brakes that you've used stable at that rate of deceleration?
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ... section (83) seems to have been added specifically to make Segways legal, so perhaps someone with the resources for lobbying and/or a court battle could make these boards legal.
For comparison, you can buy a top-of-the-line longboard for $200, full kit. An essentially equivalent product [1] is selling for $500 a pop, half the price. That's more in line with what I'd pay for a luxury product like this.
Also, I'm not sure how comfortable this would actually be to carry around. Most longboards are around 7 pounds... this says "12 to 15" in the description. So, basically, this is going to feel like I'm carrying two skateboards around, not one.
[1] - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1645804961/the-zboard-th...
$10 for a sticker? $40 for a t-shirt? $1000 for a skateboard?A premium is, basically by definition, worth much less than your donation. Giving a premium with a $100 cash value for a $100 donation would not be a good way to raise money. ;)
Not my native language though..?
Not much of a bargain... ;)
As for 1.2k / board - that's quite steep, their BOM (Bill of Materials) should be at most 1/2 of that. A very substantial off-the-shelf 4x (motor + ESC + LiPo) combo will run at the very most for $400.
I feel that's how we should think of most stuff we back on Kickstarter. Since at some levels the "reward" is the product itself, though, it gets harder to think like that.
That's why when you pledge to donate on Kickstarter you're called a "backer" instead of a "customer", I think. You're a customer AFTER you get the product, but till then you're a someone that believes in that project and wants to help.
Back in 2007 we used to ride electric boards around UC Berkeley, and they only cost $600.
I'm willing to bet from ebike knowledge that the regenerative braking is more of a marketing feature, and may not even break even with the added weight. Have you done tests on this?
Others have touched upon price so i'll ask if you had any concerns about liabilities? and are you hoping to grow organically post-kickstarter, or a funding round?
Regen braking doesn't add any weight for us.
Liability is an issue for sure, and we're handling it just like any other vehicle or consumer product.
1. We're starting with a great longboard - one that would cost over $300 if you bought it alone.
2. We're using advanced and expensive motor and battery technology. The kind seen in electric motorcycles and cars, but never in bikes or scooters.
The reason the price is so high is because we built the first ones for ourselves, not for customers, and we only used the best ingredients. We have no intention of compromising that, even if it means less volume, because the end result is worth it.
Do you recommend or discourage riding in say, light rain?
I can't even skateboard, but I'd love to try this round London.
Otherwise, that's really cool.
While I think this product will be pretty neat, I can't see it revolutionizing transportation simply because longboarding requires a good amount of mental energy in comparison to a scooter or bike. But I have to admit, it is seriously fun, and the sensation of gliding is awesome.
I value my ankles and epidermis at several dozen times "$1200 a piece". I consider your stance to be the utter epitome of foolishness.
let the ultra-modders swap in LiCo's on their own - they'll do it anyways.
there's a techcrunch-story-future that i'd really like to see you avoid! :(
Here's a forum post by a guy who was lucky to survive a crash at 30mph (some nasty post-op pictures - may be NSFW): http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=253168
This is a VERY compelling product, the price point is just fine. But I do want to know if I could, practically, learn to ride it from scratch in a few hours.
And yes, as someone who lives less than five miles from work, it is a VERY compelling product. The only problem is traffic. In normal suburban traffic a long board + a helmet would make a motorcycle look downright benign in the safety department.
Funding and donation have very different connotations.
I'm referring to "donation" model vs. "goods/services exchanged for money" model. I think both of those can be "funding." Anyway I am very interested in this perspective and in particular why someone wouldn't consider giving money in exchange for as little as nothing a "donation."
PS. are you hiring ? ;)
Wouldn't a failsafe that activated the brakes if contact with the remote were lost pretty much avoid any serious problems? I don't think getting rear-ended should be much of a concern, since the maximum speed is 20 MPH, and cars will (hopefully) be careful behind someone on a skateboard in general.
I of course have no idea what the average load is, but a reasonable wild ass guess is ~100W.
There's no equivalent to this behavior in any other vehicle. In a car you just hit the pedal, on a bike you just squeeze the handles and hold on, on a seque (the closest equivalent I can think of) you must lean back to actuate the stopping.
On a long board at 20mph if you "hit the brakes" you crash, period. That just doesn't sound equivalently safe to me.
You probably don't stop as fast as you would on a car or a bike, but you learn to control the speed you stop at pretty quickly.
I don't think longboarding will ever be as safe as riding a bike, but braking isn't the biggest reason for that.
Being able to apply a stopping force without simultaneously being able to fully brace your upper body against a solidly connected part of the bike was a very different, and to my mind, rather unsafe, condition.
I'd think liability issues would pretty grossly limit the merchantability of the powered skateboard. Electric scooters offer the benefit of a handlebar as well.
A very slow brake application might be fine, but there has to be an alarm to the rider before that.
Longboards are very dangerous. Usually it's fear and inadequate kicking technique that keeps you from going too fast. I hope that people riding these boards will learn breaking do not rely solely on the engines.
Is it really faster than biking? How? I imagine braking on this thing is not as good as on bike--harder to control stability, also smaller surface contact area. If you cannot stop fast, you cannot afford to go fast...
On a bike I can usually blend into city traffic, draft large vehicles, weave through traffic jams, or hop on to sidewalk. Doing the same with longboard would require serious skill (and be probably less safe), I think.
On the whole, I thought it a rather wooly way to go 2 miles from my house to the Caltrain. For trips around 1 mile or less I think it would make a lot of sense.
I also weave through traffic. I don't know how to evaluate whether it's more or less safe than doing the same thing on a bike or motorcycle, but it doesn't feel any less safe.
As for comparing safety, one could 1) compare time to stop with different brake types, on different surfaces, in a straight, in a corner 2) gather statistics on traffic accidents and injuries
How does the skateboard avoid this? Where do you park it when you go to a restaurant or something?
But, who knows, maybe these guys will be able to make a board that is not ridiculously bulky. [Make a lighter 10 lbs version, with 5 miles range, and I'm yours. Even for 1k.]
While grocery shopping, I put it underneath the shopping cart.