Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones? Given everything happening with Android, what is the current state of Linux phones and Linux phone development? I have a lot of C experience, how can I get involved? |
Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones? Given everything happening with Android, what is the current state of Linux phones and Linux phone development? I have a lot of C experience, how can I get involved? |
I find the idea of Linux phones pointless. Instead of trying to create an app ecosystem that will never compete against proprietary-ecosystem optimized and well-isolated one, we can leverage it. I wouldn't want an OS where the banking app can peek into my browser. Desktop OSes are still like that and that's crap OS design in 2025. It has been crap since 90s. Linux being popular has significantly hindered OS innovation in open source world.
If you would like to help, I think helping projects like LineageOS or GrapheneOS is better. You can also try joining reverse engineered driver efforts for open source drivers like Freedreno. You can help porting device-specific kernel drivers to mainline. So we can boot whatever kernels we want on normal Android phones with Mesa OpenGL.
"A lot of C experience" doesn't really tell anything. Have you worked with cross-language systems? How much you know about ABIs? How about interface definition languages (IDLs)? Have you actually written a production driver for Linux systems? Have you implemented any system-level service that got deployed a number of nodes? You need to join somewhere and improve things marginally.
What makes AOSP a better and more meaningful target for a truly open source system is being also open source and having a much better userland implementation that is supported by specific kernel patches that isolate client programs from direct hardware access and from each other. Moreover it has better libraries for creating mobile apps. It has a better and established ecosystem full of experts, some of which already implement FOSS apps.
No GNU system has anything close and getting close is a huge engineering effort that you don't need to do.
What AOSP does is actually workaround or extend Linux kernel with a system layer that makes the runtime for apps look more like a microkernel. It is a much secure design for carrying a general purpose computer with GPS, Camera and Bluetooth on.
So why not just improve Apache-licensed AOSP? Port the closed drivers to open source ones and everyone can utilize all of AOSP's benefits, without being controlled by Google or phone manufacturers too (as long as you can modify the software). FOSS friendly phone vendors can always help with porting efforts and remove blockers.
As I mentioned if the core driver libraries for the userland are reverse engineered (like Freedreno driver in Mesa instead of closed-source Qualcomm stuff) and the kernel drivers are ported to mainline you'll have a better mobile OS than any GNU system can achieve in the same time frame.
If you still want your GNU environment, there are already ones that implement it like Termux.
But there are a great series of tutorials from Lupyuen where he gets Apache Nuttx running on the PP. He fills in a lot of the missing documentation and magic smoke details.
For example: https://lupyuen.org/articles/dsi#initialise-lcd-controller
I'm currently following the same reverse engineering process, but using Zig. The A64 is quite fun to play with, but I think the hardware might be better suited as a feature phone vs full linux. I'll let you know in 10 years time hehe.
I haven't watched that video, but I've seen the comments from unhappy people over the years.
I don't know if we'll ever get the full story, but I imagine it was either that or go insolvent. I'm guessing they tied up all the preorder money, and the delays put them between a rock and a hard place.
They handled it poorly, but I think they're on top of everything now.
The lesser-known SHIFT6mq has an actual mobile chip and apparently works correctly as a phone under postmarketOS (only GPS, NFC and Camera missing): https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/SHIFT_SHIFT6mq_(shift-axo.... There are pointers on the wiki to hack on the camera if you want to help the cause.
The Fairphone 5 is another good candidate for hacking: calls and camera are not working: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Fairphone_5_(fairphone-fp...
I'm a Librem 5 owner, but I haven't really been able to use it, due to the atrocious (unusable) battery life, and broad incompatibility with most of the things that I need to do with a phone.
I've been a proud Linux user since the 90s, so by rights I should be exactly the market they're trying to capture -- slightly paranoid, FOSS-idealogue, willing to trade off some (or even a lot of) usability for freedom (and these days, a degree of protection from that thing that is happening in the USA and elsewhere, which is no longer safe to call by its name).
Yet here are the things that I cannot do on my Librem 5 that I basically need to be able to do in order to subsist:
- Go for more than 5h without charging
- Google Maps. I know -- on my GrapheneOS handset, I have OSMAnd+ and OrganicMaps (installed via F-droid no less) but as it happens, I live in a city with a lot of bridges and even more traffic, and if I want to get anywhere without a +/- 1h variance due to traffic, I depend on live-traffic-informed maps.
- Signal. (note: It's been a year or two since I checked in -- is this available yet on Librem 5?)
- Parking apps. My city has invested heavily in integration against just one of these apps, and it happens not to run on Librem 5 (or, for that matter, GrapheneOS -- why does a _parking app_ want attestation? smh). This is becoming increasingly inconvenient as competing apps seem to be in retreat and I am getting used to circling, waiting for spaces that I can successfully pay for.
- Ability to run local government app, which is available for both Android and iPhone, but obviously not Librem. This was more urgent during the pandemic, when it was required for various things like crossing borders and proving Covid status, but it's still hard(er) to get service from some agencies without it.
I have my Librem 5 in a drawer with my other fun tinkering toys, like my Raspberry Pi collection and 5" touchscreen modules (and breakout boards etc.) I still have plans to install it in my car at some point (it would be a good fit for an always-charging scenario.) Every once in a while I take it out and admire it and dream about the possibility of a future without domination. Then I put it away again.
This pinephone project was the last thing I remeber looking into. Not sure where they are at now. But I think they have a number of OSS you can look to contribute to.
- RISCV processor
- Standard Logic board
- Standard Screen
- Standard Battery
- Standard Wifi & Bluetooth modem
- Probably ditch cellular and use something like LoRa
- Standard OS (Linux)
- Standard package manager
Edit: Imagine a phone that you can just swap and mix components from different manufacturers. You could buy the components yourself and assemble, like a standard PC. If one manufacturer tries to lock you in, or you don't like their component you simply replace it.
2. and phone is phone of it can do phone calls
3. it holds battery for one day at least
there is possibly oss phone https://mastodon.social/@mntmn/111387899138111367
so seems need some video demo to show me before i buy
I will probably continue developing my apps, but it's not really moving forward.
That's actually interesting and good to know. Last I looked at Ubuntu Touch they were so far behind I assumed they weren't active. I didn't realize they just lag a lot.
Linux phones are more important now than ever
I actually don't know what you are referencing.
I'll be generous and add in "standard camera" for you.
But of course camera tech is moving fast. So either the standard camera gets left behind, or the "standard camera" is continually updated.
Rinse and repeat for sll your "standards". The modem needs updating (new mobile specs coming out from time to time.) Battery tech goes very fast. Every time I eat there's a cpu update. Screens change. Form factors change.
Armies of people at Samsung, Apple et al are managing this all the time. Naturally your Open Source phone would need to keep up.
So instead of listing all the common modules, perhaps it's more useful to explain what sort of budget this effort eould need (sustainably) then list the ways the project will generate income to meet that budget.
Without this your list falls into the "what we need are flying cars" box, which is nice, but not exactly constructive. [Astute readers will also note that we really don't want flying cars...]
I think if there's an open standard that different organizations can contribute to things will move faster and will be cheaper than having single organization trying to build a new Linux phone from scratch, it is also more reselient with little centralization. Different groups can specialize on different components where they have expertise.
I chose RISCV because it's a open standard, we could build around that ecosystem.
The standard can be updated, having different generations/versions when it's absolutely necessary. But it shouldn't move too fast especially if the interfaces are clearly defined. Phones from 10 years ago are powerful enough it's just that brands create new devices to force people to upgrade.
1) The form factor really fights this.
2) Something needs to change with ARM, cause modular hardware would require device independent ISOs, and that only seams to exist for x86.... IDK about RISCV
This is absolutely a non-starter. LoRa is an extremely low bandwidth protocol - in a best-case scenario (e.g. two nearby devices communicating on an uncontended frequency), it's in the realm of 50 kbit/sec. It's designed for low-rate data like remote telemetry, not real-time communications.
I don't know why you need ssh with Xorg on your phone though? There are ways like scrcpy to control your phone remotely. Apps like KDE Connect on Android already give quite a bit remote control opportunities too. There are open source remoting apps that fit the Android user interface better like RustDesk. If you still want an Xorg running, there is nothing stopping you from encapsulating it in an Android app too.
> ssh with Xorg
For example to run gufw on the Phone, but access it on my computer? Sure I could also learn to do it in the shell, but it is so damn convenient. Sometimes it's also nice to run an editor directly on the device itself and not run the editor locally on an ssh-mount.
And even if you solve the software issue, a “modular” phone like that will be bulky, heavy and have permanently outdated hw without really offering anything in return for that for >95% of its potential user base.
> to force people to upgrade.
So if they had to pick between a modern device with closed hw/software and something allegedly good enough for them but has an inferior screen, camera, battery, is heavier and has poor quality software. How do you force them to buy it?
I think it will initially be a phone for hackers, and they will develop the ecosystem. It will also be competitive in that different manufacturers will try to develop the best components for the market.
Sure there's maybe a few thousand hackers, but the phone market is measured in hundreds of millions, not thousands.
The phone itself will be inferior in hardware, inferior in software, inferior in services, inferior in support, and so on.
There us no market.
Having said this, I find it weird people calling some govt facist (and by extension socialist), my observation is all of them are- reading Gramchi's facist manifesto, he says (from memory so not word to word): everything in state, nothing outside of state, nothing against the state. To my knowledge whole world is now ran by this principle, we are forced to be part of the system and pay taxes, we will be punished if we don't.
Taking this under account I come to sad conclusion that it's difficult to find a country that is not facist, certainly not the EU (a.k.a. another "thinker" Spinelli who came with his own communist manifesto which was adopted as EU's cornerstone, one of the main EU buildings carries his name), not the country I live in, I don't know about real USA posture but I guess it's similar- try to hire somebody or be hired without letting the state know and you'll face massive problems.