Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander(masteringemacs.org)

178 points by TheFreim 233 days ago | 277 comments

Jcampuzano2 233 days ago |

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked.

I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something that allowed me to type for more than 5 minutes at a time without pain.

The things I think are key for people with persistent issues:

- programmable keys

- tenting

- concavity (rules out most keyboards)

- thumb clusters

- ortholinear

I know some go without the concavity but I just cannot go back. Its so much more comfortable on my hands.

Programmable keys are probably the most important though, primarily so you can pick which stretches and awkward movements to completely remove and no longer have to do.

For example I've entirely removed the need to ever stretch my pinkies and ring fingers on both hands. It destroys my hands having to do so on a normal keyboard and so many normal shortcuts require excessive pinky finger movement.

I honestly think anybody who plans on using a keyboard for the rest of their life should invest in a high quality keyboard even if it's expensive. I would not be able to continue working today without having done so.

Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis feels.

DanHulton 233 days ago | |

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures.

But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connected in weird ways, the pain I was feeling in my wrists originated way back in over-stressing those shoulder muscles.

After a few weeks of an exercise program designed to target those muscles, all my RSI pains aren't just reduced, which was the sum total of the results I got from different mechanical keyboards, they were GONE. Plus, I had the added benefit of naturally sitting and walking "better" and feeling better about it.

So if you've tried different mechanical keyboards with only limited degrees of success (or have a fave keyboard you don't want to have to switch from), consider an exercise program designed to improve your posture! It is literally the single biggest thing I've done in the past year to make me feel significantly better, and not just in the case of the RSI!

nothrabannosir 233 days ago | | |

I have a similar story. Bought a Kinesis advantage II at the time and it provided at best some solace. Started lifting weights and all pain was completely gone within two weeks.

Not saying it will work for others but it’s at least worth trying.

PS I ended up sticking with the kinesis, now on a 360 pro. Hands down the best keyboard I’ve ever seen or used. I recommend both deadlifts and kinesis :)

VladVladikoff 233 days ago | | |

Lifting weights cured a lot of my wrist pain. Then I started training jiujitsu, now I have full body pain all the time.

Jcampuzano2 232 days ago | | |

Unfortunately I was probably what most people would think is a model person in terms of activity. I used a standing desk or sitting with no backrest to maintain upright posture - I exercised all the time, did yoga with my wife, competed in powerlifting, did plenty of walking/cardio, rucking etc. I played guitar regularly and had since I was like 12 and had bouldering as a hobby so finger strength didn't seem to be an issue.

I did physical therapy for months and the issue basically came down to my nerves being the issue. I was diagnosed with Cubital Tunnel Syndrome in both elbows and also a torn TFCC tear in one hand causing pressure on the ulnar nerve in my wrists when the wrist was flexed even a little or in what was called ulnar deviation (wrist extended outwards/away from your body). I was told the most likely cause was as simple as the way I slept - with my elbows bent and potentially exacerbated due to excessive heavy gripping combined with my bone structure in my elbow simply not being very kind on me.

I've since recovered from the elbow surgeries and they are evaluating wrist surgery as well, I still sometimes have issues with my fingers going numb in the wrong position - but trust me, I went to all kinds of doctors trying to figure this out since practically every hobby I had required using my hands/fingers. Unfortunately it just seems like I was unlucky. But having keyboards that allow my hands to be in more natural positions at the very least has allowed me to continue working.

distances 233 days ago | | |

I have somewhat similar experience. I had wrist pain for years, using a wrist support and topical pain gel. MRI and other tests were inconclusive, it wasn't any of the typical problems.

A physiotherapist said the problem is not the wrists but that the pain comes from higher up in the arms. I started going to the gym, and like for you, the issues are just gone now. I haven't worn the wrist support since.

ziml77 233 days ago | | |

I wonder if anyone who's switched to an ergonomic setup has found that it stops working as well over time. Because I have long suspected that the real problems (in many cases) come down to weak muscles. But these ergonomic setups are likely to weaken them even more over a long enough period of time given that they try to avoid all of the strain.

jacobolus 233 days ago | | |

A person in good health with good form can type with reasonable (not ideal) comfort on a standard keyboard on any height table (within reason), but:

(0) Try to feel in your body what kind of static load is on your muscles and joints. Ideally you want your body parts to be in neutral relaxed positions. It's not always possible to completely avoid static load, so try to take routine breaks, change positions, etc.

(1) At all costs avoid having nontrivial wrist extension or flexion (wrists bent upward or downward) while doing repetitive finger motions. Your hands need to be coming straight out of your forearms. The tendons that flex and extend the fingers need to pass through the wrists, and a bent wrist leaves them moving in a weak and uncomfortable part of their range of motion. My understanding is that most keyboard-related RSI comes from wrist extension or flexion.

(2) You should try to get your arms to be supported as much as possible passively from the shoulders. When sitting or standing, the upper arms should be hanging loosely at your sides with back reasonably straight and head up. The keyboard needs to be close enough to the torso for this to be possible. If your elbows are not close to your body, but are forward or out to the side, try to change your position. Being in a position where the weight of the arms is supported by the arm muscles causes fatigue and encourages compromising other joint positions in uncomfortable or damaging ways to relieve the strain. While actively typing the hands do not need to be supported by any kind of surface: let the palms "float" above the keyboard. Use the palm rest for resting, not typing.

(3) For a single-piece flat keyboard, I find it is most comfortable for the plane of the keyboard to be parallel to the forearms. The appropriate front/back tilt of the keyboard is therefore dependent on the relative height of the keyboard and the torso: if the table is high relative to the chair, the keyboard needs to be tilted up at the far side; if the keyboard is on your lap, on a low under-desk keyboard tray, or on a belly-height standing desk, then the keyboard needs to be flat or even tilted down at the far side. The major reason that old typewriters had an aggressive tilt to them was because desks are historically the right height for handwriting (i.e. tall).

(4) I find it helps a lot on a one-piece keyboard to keep the wrists with little to no ulnar deviation (turn toward the outside). It also helps to try to pronate them less (i.e. leave them turned so that the pinkies are a bit below the pointer fingers, instead of rotating them all the way flat). Split ergonomic keyboards eliminate the need to make some of these compromises by allowing the hands to be separated and allowing the sides to be "tented" (so the wrists can be less pronated) and positioned/oriented to eliminate ulnar deviation.

(5) Try not to have too sharp an impact on each keystroke. Ideally use only the necessary force for each key press to register, and try to avoid slamming your fingers down hard through the bottom of the keystroke. A keyboard with better switches can help a lot here, with reliable actuation halfway through the keystroke and tactile/auditory feedback at the actuation point. Key switches that don't reliably actuate unless smashed are the worst.

jval43 233 days ago | |

That is exactly my experience, although a bit earlier.

I landed on a Kinesis Advantage 2, at the time as the 360 wasn't even announced yet.

Spent entirely too much money on other ones. There's a reason the Kinesis Advantage line has been around for decades. It really is a just a great ergonomic shape without many compromises. And mine has held up 7 years now with no issues.

Anyone looking for pain relief should really try the Advantage 2 or 360. If the 360 Pro is too expensive don't shy away from considering a used Kinesis Advantage 2. Don't get an Advantage 1 as they have compatibility issues with newer machines.

Symbiote 233 days ago | | |

If cost is a concern, and you are an employee, please ask if work will pay. Also ask if they have a similar keyboard lying unused in a cupboard.

I'll buy a €450 keyboard for any employee that asks for one. It's easily justified compared to the loss of productivity from RSI or similar.

arcanemachiner 233 days ago | |

For those with more time than money, you can build an open-source Advantage 360 clone for around $100 USD:

- https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1

I'm not the creator, but I do have a repo with a purchase list that shows what stuff to buy from AliExpress:

- https://github.com/arcanemachine/Ergo-S-1-Extras

It takes about 10 hours to put together. You'll also need some nerd tools: access to a 3D printer, soldering iron, etc.

patrickk 233 days ago | | |

There are some great 3D printing services out there for those who don’t have access to a 3D printer locally. You can upload the CAD file and get an instant quote.

microtonal 233 days ago | |

Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis feels.

Glove80 has a better key well and thumb cluster for most people though. I have made a detailed comparison here:

https://danieldk.eu/MoErgo-Glove80-Review

Also agree with the sibling commenters. In order, get:

- Help from an expert/exercise/do very regular breaks.

- A properly adjustable chair.

- A height-adjustable desk (get an electronic one, it's the only one you will ever tune properly, other desks are too much effort).

- Only then an ergo keyboard.

An ergo keyboard is worthless if you do not get the basics right (diagnose the issues, letting the blood flow, having a good posture). I am in some ergo keyboard Discords and it happens far too often that people by an ergo keyboard, but do not even have a setup where they can have a good posture.

psoundy 233 days ago | | |

I used kinesis advantage for 15 years, switched to a glove80 for the past 2, but recently went back to kinesis with an advantage2. The glove80 is very nice, but my hands are big enough that the kinesis thumb cluster works better for me and the cherry mx brown switches are much more satisfying than the low profile chocs.

So ymmv, but for those with larger hands, it may make sense to try a kinesis.

qyckudnefDi5 233 days ago | | |

Have you tried any of the splitkb keyboards? If so, how do they compare to the kinesis adv 2?

atoav 233 days ago | |

Having been extensively on computers for the past 25 years and I have never experienced the whole keyboard-/mouse-pain thing even in the slightest on myself. I know many collegues who did tho.

I wonder whether this has to do with me being a bass and guitar player. Playing an instrument where you essentially press down thick steel wires with your finger tips with full force, while your fingers are in odd angled ("unhealthy") positions for hours certainly does something to your motoric system.

I know anecdotal evidence with n=1 is useless, but the idea that motion is important to reduce body pains isn't exactly new or unresearched. A whole family of ergonomic chairs have evolved about that very idea. I know multiple people whose only solution to excruciating back pain was simply to exercise and build muscles in the back, and they tried every ergonomic chair in the book. The only thing that really helped was excercise.

Since I don't have RSI take all that with a grain of salt, but maybe trying with those guitar-finger-strength-trainers for a month isn't that big of an investment?

akdor1154 233 days ago | | |

Similar experience (no rsi, 35, shit tier typing technique, bassist + pianist), same theory. Go get them fingers jacked!

Jcampuzano2 233 days ago | | |

Sadly I actually stopped playing guitar because of my issues after having played for almost 20 years.

I'd played guitar since I was 12 years old and probably averaged at least an hour a day basically the entire time even into adulthood. Played obviously a hell of a lot more when I was a teenager though.i also was competing in powerlifting and used my grip and fingers for all sorts of stuff.

I had surgery on both elbows and am told I may need to on my hands/wrists since the issue is a combination of nerve issues and wrist issues.

marginalia_nu 233 days ago | |

I fairly recently got a Glove 80, still not entirely used to the thing but I can certainly tell my wrists are a lot happier. Was also looking at the Advantage 360, but with shipping it's nearly twice as expensive where I live so it was hard to motivate.

Before that I was using a Keychron Q11, which is a split keyboard with a regular staggered layout. That helped my shoulders feel better, I have a pretty broad frame and regular keyboards put me in a kinda t-rex position, but my left wrist in particular was killing me since I couldn't type a fair few keys on the left side, c, x, z, and q, without constantly adjusting my hand position.

Must say that the Glove 80 is growing on me as one heck of a comfortable experience. No idea how durable it is, it's certainly a light keyboard, though at the same time I'm not sure how well that actually conveys build quality. Like would the solder joints really have been more resistant to drops and impacts if it had a steel plate in the bottom like the Kinesis does?

userbinator 233 days ago | |

I am curious how/if you were formally taught how to type, and whether you hit the keys with sharp and abrupt movements. Of those whom I've seen develop RSI, a common trend I've noticed is they type very "discretely", with a very noticeable pause between each keypress, and use a lot more force than necessary. They were also taught that that was the "correct" way to type, adhere strictly to a sub-optimal fingering pattern, and type relatively slowly too. RSI seems to be caused by the sort of excessively rigid and intense finger movements that I've seen from these formally-taught typists.

makeitdouble 233 days ago | | |

The more generic trend could be people who perfectly hit the same keys the same way again and again.

I've seen it with people religiously sticking to an optimal typing method which limits their hand movement to an extreme. They were crazy fast but RSI was a common subject of discussion, regardless of posture or hardware quality.

We had the same issue with gaming controllers, some with guitar learning etc. There's a limit on how much we're able to repeat the same movement again and again, it depended on what movement and who did it, but the only ones who didn't get any RSI simply avoided extreme repetitions.

And buffs. Sometimes building more and more muscles solve the issues entirely, if that's what you're into.

barrell 233 days ago | | |

Not op, but had a very similar story. Got crippling RSI to welcome me into my 30s. Couldn’t work for several months and ended up getting a Glove80 because I needed to make a living.

This definitely does not describe me. I typed around 100wpm, sometimes quite loud, often times quite a button mash, and frequently not lifting my fingers quickly after each press. Didn’t have any notion of “correct” typing

Jcampuzano2 233 days ago | | |

I was not taught to formally type and learned pretty much exclusively from playing PC games. Primarily wold of Warcraft.

I did not "touch type" in the traditional sense of correct form and using the home row, but I didn't need to look at the keyboard. I typed around 120wpm like this though at the time. I have not and probably never will get back to this speed typing on the Kinesis. I'm closer to just 90-100wpm with stricter typing technique. But usually try not to type as fast as I can anymore anyway. I still to this day type faster with my crap form on a laptop keyboard if I swap to it for a bit even though I rarely do anymore.

My typing form was honestly atrocious. If I were to describe it I covered over wasd with my left hand as if I was gaming, and pinky was only ever really used for modifier keys and shifting. I only used left shift, never right. My right hand I used index finger for spacebar and moved my entire hand to the spacebar between every word. I didn't even realize I did this until I sat and analyzed my typing form maybe a year ago to compare to correct touch typing.

It actually took me quite a while to learn to type on a split keyboard since I basically had to learn to type correctly from scratch.

oktoberpaard 232 days ago | |

I got RSI using a touchpad, which then transferred to using a normal mouse. I couldn’t do anything with a mouse for longer than a few minutes. I completely fixed it with a DXT Mouse 2 (and later 3).

My normal (mechanical) keyboard doesn’t give me any issues, as long as it’s narrow enough (75% layout or less) that I can keep my mouse close enough to the center of my body that I don’t have to rotate my shoulder outwards too much.

My natural resting position on my keyboard is with both arms coming in diagonally without bending at the wrists. I do a lot of work on the terminal, including programming, so I’m using it quite intensively and I never feel any strain.

I tried to get used to a split orthogonal keyboard, but I couldn’t use it for extended periods without getting RSI like symptoms. Would I have persisted, I might have gotten used to it. Or maybe it just wasn’t the right one for me.

Anyway, this is not to counter any of the things you said, because I basically followed the same path with my mouse, but it shows how different postures and usage patterns can lead to different outcomes. I’m still interested in ergonomic keyboards, though, and I might try one again in the future.

harvey9 233 days ago | |

Glove80 might not survive a drop on the floor but I've used mine full time for over a year and it still feels like new.

dbalatero 233 days ago | |

You nailed it, I have the same criteria. I ended up with a Cyboard Imprint but the Advantage 360 seems excellent as well.

Forgeties79 233 days ago | |

These look great and I don’t doubt it’s worth the investment, but holy hell $500 is a tough price tag to accept.

sudahtigabulan 233 days ago | | |

You can get pretty far with software-only tweaks to your existing keyboard instead.

I've settled on keyd[1], after using XKB and interception-tools for a while.

[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd

rovr138 233 days ago | | |

I have a Kinesis advantage pro. I bought it 11 years ago (in 2 months). When you look at it over the time it’ll last.. it gets easier to swallow. It also solved a lot of issues for me.

In that time, I’ve had 3 desks, 5 computer chairs, and 7 computers.

vel0city 233 days ago | | |

I've definitely spent way more than $500 over the several models of keyboards, albeit the ASP was more like $200 or so.

My view on it is, a good keyboard will get several years of use out of it, the average yearly price isn't really that much. Second, it's something I'm touching several hours most days of my life. I'm using a keyboard more than I wear shoes personally (I do prefer the barefoot life, so I'm a bit odd there). I'm touching it more than my couch or my dining chairs or other things in my home. Isn't it worthwhile that it's comfortable and exactly what I want from it?

Lunamare 233 days ago | | |

The way I thought about it was that I would gladly pay $500 to have a reduction in RSI symptoms, let alone prevent them beforehand. Not to mention the potential loss of enjoyment & employment from pain during computer use.

And as such, I'm an extremely satisfied Advantage 360 Pro user. The Adv 360 + a mouse side-grade massively reduced pains in my hands/wrists to the point where I don't notice any issues 99% of the time, even with heavy (7+ hour) computer use and quite a lot of FPS gaming.

Though note that there are several keyboards with split layouts + tenting (the two most important aspects for relief) that cost a fraction of the Adv 360; $200-300 of the price tag is for features, build quality, it being pre-built, and ease of programmability.

2muchcoffeeman 233 days ago | | |

Cheaper than medical bills regardless of what country you’re in.

sshine 233 days ago | | |

I just got a corne split keyboard from China for a fraction of the cost. The guy who runs the webshop seemed like a legit enthusiast. $40

lawn 233 days ago | |

I agree with your list except for ortholinear. I firmly believe that row stagger (that you find on regular keyboards) are bad but you should have column stagger (to match the different lengths of your fingers).

kalaksi 233 days ago | |

I have had ctrl and caps lock swapped for a long time. The default layout sucks for today's needs.

petesergeant 233 days ago | |

Anyone else suffering with this, I would highly recommend an app that forces you to stop typing for a few seconds every other couple of minutes, like AntiRSI. Hugely annoying but helped me where many keyboards did not

linsomniac 230 days ago |

I've had a Moonlander for a couple years, and an ErgoDox Ez for 3-4 years before that, and, honestly, I'm looking to move to something else.

My biggest issue seems to be that I'm switching between a Macbook and the Moonlander all the time, and the Moonlander I just find myself making too many dumb typos on. In particular, I think the ortholinear layout isn't doing me any favors, and the missing extra keys on the right (particularly the missing "+" key) I really struggle with.

I do love the thumb clusters, but as the article above says, the red button I never use.

The real star of the show is the programmable firmware. I have a lot of custom mappings on my main layer that I really love, with dual use keys being a big one (z and / are control if held for example). The Framework 16 keyboard with QMK firmware sounds really, really good to me.

Unfortunately, my next keyboard doesn't seem to exist: Low profile mechanical switches, QMK or similar firmware, split, thumb clusters, staggered layout, enough keys to have []\ on the right. The low profile seems to be the killer there.

Twey 233 days ago |

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_

That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is ‘less stretching’, and by geometry more keys = more stretching, which is why there's significant overlap between the ergonomic keyboard crowd and the few-keys crowd. When I first got an Ergodox I too thought I would struggle with few keys, but over time I found I prefer to have the keys in a comfortable position with a layer modifier than to have them off in Narnia where I have to shift my whole wrist to reach them.

(Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.)

bee_rider 230 days ago |

I have a Kinesis Freestyle Pro that I sort of like. Although, I think tenting and split is honestly 99% of the value here, I don’t really get the whole mechanical keyboard click clacky thing. I actually prefer the key pressing experience of something like an Apple Magic Keyboard, nice and crisp and immediate. But, tenting is not optional as far as I’m concerned, it is mandatory.

Eventually the little rubbery feet fell off the tenting attachment. In a moment of frustration I wrapped the tenting attachment in tennis racket overgrip, which actually drastically improves the feeling of the thing IMO, it really keeps the keyboard in place and removes a lot of the creaky noises from the plastic tenting kits.

It looks like Moonlander tenting kits tend to be a bit more aggressive than what you get with Kinesis, though, so maybe it doesn’t apply.

ericwood 230 days ago | |

This is exactly how I feel; I'd love a switch that performs like the modern apple keyboards. Anytime I've dipped my toe into mechanical keyboard waters I've lost speed and accuracy, even after weeks of practice. The extra key travel felt like it gave me more fatigue, even with low profile switches. Whenever I've researched alternatives I get the sense I'm in the minority, though, and most mechanical keyboard users are after a very different feel. It's a huge shame, because I'd love to move to something with a split for better shoulder/arm positioning.

bee_rider 230 days ago | | |

Cherry apparently has scissor switches. I wonder if it’s possible to buy them individually and make a keyboard like the mechanical keyboard fans do.

iamunr 230 days ago |

I tried the Ergodox (not the Moonlander) for ages, couldn't get into their thumb cluster.

I have been a die hard fan of Keyboardio and their Model 01/100 since their first kickstarter.

Similar benefits, better quality, and personally an improved layout. The fun-key being on my palm is incredible.

https://shop.keyboard.io/products/model-100

bmar 230 days ago |

I've had a Moonlander for a few years now and it's been incredible. The tenting and split layout completely fixed my hand and wrist pain.

I can't say I've had the same problems with quality as the author. The tenting can wobble if it's not tightened in a balanced position, but once it is, I haven't had it loosen. And the palm rests seem fine to me, but I've learned to put less pressure on my palms. The only issue I've had is the keyboard sliding away from you due to low friction when tented.

My board also came with Cherry MX Browns, which used for a couple of years. I recently switched to low profile key caps and Akko switches for a nicer tactile feel. With tenting, I felt like the cap height and travel distance was too large.

npstr 233 days ago |

I had some RSI at the start of corona from too much home office + gaming, what actually helped was getting a trackball (Kensington Slimblade Pro) for $work tasks.

Tried a Moonlander and hated it. My hands don't work with ortholinear. And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc. I think most of what is told and sold in ergonomics is snake oil. I don't believe ortholinear is any good for it, and minimizing movement also seems really questionable to me. I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs.

I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard. I have to accommodate Linux ($work), Windows (gaming), Mac (personal projects, open uni). That's already challenging enough to get these have similar shortcuts. I use a keychron K5 pro that supports all OSs. I can work efficiently in all situations, with all OSs, with just a single screen. Having a more specialized keyboard (or otherwise setup, like relying too heavily on multi-monitors), wouid overall surely be detrimental, during the times I could not use it.

What I've learned to avoid pain: Wrists should be straight. For me, a slim keyboard helps to achieve that, flat on the table. Hands should have some room apart, open chest. Small keyboards are bad for that, you'll want a 100% one, or a split. Do some lifting, have some muscles. Try a trackball, you might love it. Switch how you are sitting. The best sitting position is the next one. Get up to think, go for breaks. Don't overly specialize into some local/global optimum that is a moving target over your lifetime. Use defaults. Mostly boring setup with some minor personal tweaks can go a long way.

miladyincontrol 233 days ago |

I too have a moonlander but imo the biggest gain from most mechs isnt how they can tent but being ortholinear in nature reducing some of the more awkward directional movements of a staggered keyboard. Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many keys, a 40% is more than enough, less can be more in many ways.

My datahand is probably my favorite keyboard though for reducing movement while avoiding too much repetition. If it ever bites the dust beyond repair I'd absolutely move to a diy svalboard build or whatever similar alternative is it's contemporary.

hosteur 233 days ago | |

> Honestly my biggest gripe with the moonlander is its too many keys

Can't you just program it such that you do not use the keys you find unnecessary? Perhaps even remove the switches?

Jcampuzano2 232 days ago | | |

Don't have a moonlander but I actually did this with my advantage 360 pro. I did not remove the switches but I made them no-ops. The whole left-most and right-most columns of the keyboard are completely unused for me.

If you travel with the keyboard a lot maybe its an issue since its extra weight/space, but if not I don't see it really hurting much.

dotancohen 233 days ago |

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug.

The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

wulfstan 233 days ago |

OPs experience working their way up the keyboard stack is very similar to my own. I settled on the Dygma Raise. I now own one of the Raise and Raise 2.

Yes, they are a lot of money. I don’t have time to game any more, and they clearly focus mainly on gamers. But if you’re a software / IT person your wrists are your livelihood, so for goodness sakes invest in them. There is no silver bullet and you will probably have to try a number of possible solutions if you suffer from wrist and forearm pain when working, but do not ignore it and take your workplace ergonomics seriously.

For younger engineers, learn to minimise your “travel” and learning editor shortcuts, terminal shortcuts and similar so that you can be smoothly productive with constantly shifting from mouse to keyboard and back again. And take regular breaks! Get up and walk around. If you are WFH get out for walk at lunch.

In general, care for your body so that you may write code into your 80s.

lrem 233 days ago | |

If only this had the F key row. Why is "fewer keys" the first decision that every fancy keyboard designer starts with :/

2716057 233 days ago | | |

Because the fancy keyboards all support layers, and one key ergonomic principle is to avoid unnecessary finger travel ;)

Default layers on the Dygma Raise 2: https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2

wry_discontent 230 days ago |

The only ergo keyboard I've ever enjoyed is the ZSA Voyager.

I tried the Kinesis, the Ergodox, and the Moonlander, but something about them didn't quite suit me. I think they all had similarly oversized thumb clusters, which I found very uncomfortable.

My current setup is the Voyager with homerow mods, which is super comfortable and I manage to mostly avoid typos.

edit: I should also say I'm an avid Emacs user.

jamesbvaughan 230 days ago | |

+1 to the Voyager. I switched to it a few years ago from the Moonlander and have been really happy with it. I like the smaller footprint, and the fact that it has fewer keys. Having fewer keys has forced me to create layers that keep everything within a closer reach so I'm stretching my fingers out to the edge keys less than I did with the Moonlander.

I split my time about 50/50 between the Voyager and my macbook's keyboard and mostly have no problem with the difference in layouts, but I wish I could set up layers on the macbook keyboard the same way I can with the Voyager.

wry_discontent 229 days ago | | |

You can do some of it with Karabiner Elements and/or Kanata, but I don't think it's quite as good. I couldn't get the timing working as well with those so the layers were more trouble than they were worth.

kayson 233 days ago |

I love my moonlander so much, I bought a second one for work. Both were secondhand, so the sticker shock wasn't quite so bad. Though, I did end up spending some of that savings on custom, coiled cables. A coworker, after seeing my setup, also ended buying two.

I agree with the author. It's a tool, and if your job requires a lot of computer use, it is worth it to invest in a tool that can not only help prevent RSI, but also make you much more productive.

I switched to a Colemak-dh layout at the same time, and it was a huge adjustment. I'm not sure it was really worth it yet. It is hard to catch up to 30+ years of QWERTY muscle memory, though. Key layout aside, the ortholinear arrangement has absolutely been worth it. It feels much more comfortable, especially with the tenting set up.

ZSA's layout editor and customer support also deserve a shoutout. Can't recommend it enough.

jasonlotito 230 days ago |

My biggest issues with these type keyboards are the non-standard layouts. Kinesis gives you a standard layout. These other ones do not. I will NOT always be using the same keyboard everywhere I go, and muscle memory is something I have and want to benefit from. I see no benefit to me in learning a unique, one-off, non-standard layout that is effectively vendor lockin. Even ZSA can't keep a consistent layout.

walthamstow 230 days ago | |

I've been using a Keychron split that has almost exactly the same layout as my MacBook. It's not as flash as the Moonlander or others, it doesn't have tenting or an ortholinear layout, but just by being split it sorted my shoulder/centre-back pain out, and I can switch between that and an Apple keyboard no problem.

anotherevan 232 days ago |

Long time MS Natural Ergonomic 4000 user. My search continues for an 80% split keyboard, where the important programming keys haven't been repositioned or worse, moved to a secondary layer (like braces/parenthesis, pipe/backslash, question mark/slash).

I do like the idea of thumb keys, but would probably need them as duplicates to the more traditional positions. I got a Keyboardio 100 which is absolutely beautiful, but 60% with layers for those above important keys just was too freaking hard.

sagarm 232 days ago | |

I'm very confused about an 80% that allegedly moves ANY keys other than navigation, numpad, or f-keys. Any 65% will meet your requirements.

As for <60%: use that neuroplasticity. Stave off dementia. You can do it.

anotherevan 232 days ago | | |

You're right regarding 65%. The extra 15% is the arrow keys, Page up/down, home, end and delete keys. Found I often hit these one handed while the other hand is on the mouse, so a secondary layer that would require two hands to activate would be problematic.

There's neuroplasticity and there's picking your battles. :-)

wahnfrieden 233 days ago |

I love my Glove80 with Pro Red chocs. Kinesis Advantage for 15 years before that one.

Another commenter complained that it feels insubstantial. However its light weight is much preferred for travel. It's fine.

microtonal 233 days ago | |

100% agree. I have almost never travelled with my Advantage2 or 360 when I still had them. But the Glove80 is so light that it’s easy to carry with me.

The Advantage helped me a lot, but the Glove80 is the only keyboard I’ve truly loved using. The key well is insanely well-designed and even though the tenting is a bit of work to set up, it is really tailored to my preferred angle.

MoErgo is also expanding the Choc keyboard space with really nice silent switches (Cherry/Plum Blossom) and keycaps.

Jcampuzano2 232 days ago | | |

I mentioned in my comment not liking how flimsy is felt. It is very light and that can be a plus but when I tried traveling with it with tenting setup, often the rods became loose, it formed an awkward shape so didn't fit in the carrying case they provided in the first place, would not sit well in my backpack, and often times I'm not sure why but keys would pop out.

Resetting the tenting up everytime I travel/go somewhere with it is not really convenient at all, so its not really a decent option.

I don't often travel with the 360, but when I do, I just lower it to the lowest level and its never had an issue except for the obvious bulkiness.

Another issue is because its so light, it would often shift around on my desk while typing, and I've seen others complain about this as well. Maybe its just an issue of how hard you type, or how much friction your desk provides.

If I could get a mix between a 360 with the shape of the glove 80's keywell and key setup, but with the sturdiness of the 360 I'd buy it no questions asked.

wahnfrieden 233 days ago | | |

I dislike the tenting and often lose them so I just put something under the keyboard halves to tilt them. Later I want to get their mounting kit and just use these tiny pocket tripods I have (can't find the name but they have no rod), or find a good way to put magsafe rings on them to use with other sturdy mini tripods I have.

1121redblackgo 233 days ago | |

Glove80++

molteanu 233 days ago |

Oh, there's even an Emacs' package to configure your programmable keyboard with elisp! [1]

Full disclosure: I've made that!

[1] https://github.com/mihaiolteanu/mugur

danpalmer 233 days ago |

> here are my thoughts on ... you should literally buy any mechanical keyboard ... with programmable firmware

Funnily enough, the Moonlander was not this for me. It's programmable, but the round-trip time for programming meant that I didn't modify it often, and only modified it in significant ways, which meant I'd then forget key combinations immediately. This was particularly prevalent for anything where you have to tune responsiveness/movement/timing.

I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for me.

So yes, get a keyboard with programmable keys, but not all are created equal, find one that lets you have a very tight feedback loop and you'll be so much happier.

mickeyp 233 days ago | |

> I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for me.

Actually I point out you can use webusb to flash it (if you use Chrome) further down ...

danpalmer 233 days ago | | |

That must be a new feature? This didn't exist when I got my UHK, and was why I ended up selling my Moonlander.

How long does the flash take? Having it in Chrome is a great step forward, but if it still takes 10-20s to flash that would still prevent the sort of feedback loop that I found so transformational.

squigz 233 days ago | |

Yeah, unfortunately I have to agree with you. It's just enough friction in flashing that I rarely do it.

blamestross 230 days ago |

The moonlander's firmware approach is the critical feature for me.

Its a customizable ergonomic keyboard that requires zero special software on the host machine. It enables me to use the full features of the keyboard on highly restricted work machines.

I also bounce operating systems a lot, so I programmed multiple layers (and light color pallets) to unify all the different os keymaps. If I am on a mac, hit the useless red button until the keyboard turns green. On windows, until it turns blue. On debian, until it turns red. Then just go.

Its a lot of work to setup initially, but then it works everywhere forever.

babblingfish 230 days ago | |

I've considered doing this with my Moonlander, but it always seemed like too much effort. Do you have basically use a separate layer for each OS?

landr0id 233 days ago |

I like my Moonlander, but if you want to see a real scam of a keyboard try buying (please don't) one of "WORK LOUDER"'s keyboards like the Nomad E. $350-500, gimmicks you'll never use, non-open-source firmware, cheap build quality, no refunds.

dangerface 230 days ago |

ZSA Moonlander is an easy avoid. They have a defect on their thumb cluster, the plastic that holds them to the main board is thin and breaks after a few years of use. Good thing they sell spares so they can be easily repaired but bad thing is trying to order them. They don't want just any one buying parts and even sending a photo proof you own a broken Moonlander is not acceptable, they want a receipt of the original purchase or they refuse to sell them.

fleekonpoint 233 days ago |

Not sure if the author is reading these comments but if you like the Moonlander but don’t like how the thumb cluster is tied to the tenting angle, I strongly recommend their ZSA tenting solution. It makes the whole thing a lot sturdier but more importantly it lets you adjust the tenting angle independently from the thumb cluster angle. You can also probably find used ones online.

I know you mention it already in the article but it is really worth trying out. You even get more tenting angles that would previously be impossible without it. And it just makes the whole thing a lot sturdier.

marcusb 233 days ago | |

For anyone curious about this, the tenting solution is available here[0].

I wrote about it in my review of the Moonlander[1]. In short, in addition to much more stable angle adjustment, you get an additional 46 degrees of adjustment (11 degrees with the tent legs vs 57 degrees with the platform kit.)

It does tend to slide around a bit on a smooth desk, but I solved that with some rubber matting glued to the bottom.

0 - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform

1 - https://marcusb.org/posts/2025/08/two-years-with-the-zsa-moo...

mickeyp 233 days ago | |

Good to know, thanks! Now that I 3d print (apropos hobbies with infinite depth...) I would probably just CAD design and print my own instead, but I've come to accept the limitations, such as it is, of the moonlander's tenting design.

pacha3000 230 days ago |

I bought the Moonlander a year ago, and I completely regret it for the reason you mention: the horrible palm rest. It's wobbly, and when I contacted them, they told me that in the "ideal setup", my wrists aren't support to rest on them. Palm rests where you can't rest your palms.

I'm really frustrated, because I love everything else from this keyboard. But those wobbles really do make it unusable.

exitb 230 days ago | |

What they probably meant was that your wrists shouldn't be supported WHILE typing. You should only rest them while they're actually resting. Usually wrist trouble signals that you should be sitting higher/move the desk lower.

oerdier 233 days ago |

After getting shoulder bursitis two years ago--although the direct cause was sports, not desk habits--I dove into the world of split ergo keyboards. I did get one (a Kyria v3) and learned to type on it at an acceptable speed--although still significantly slower than my speed on a regular keyboard.

Wanting to optimize my layout, I did research into my typing behavior and logged my keystrokes (and storing these logs as securely as I would a password). Analysis did give me notable insights (e.g. by far my most used keys are arrow keys, for selecting text), but my main conclusion was that even during a regular full day of programming preferring my keyboard over my mouse (tiling window manager, hotkeys, browser extension to virtually click on elements using keys), I don't actually type that much, and if I do, it is in bursts, never more than 20 seconds or so.

Although I find typing on a split fun and comfortable, I went back to a regular keyboard because the hit in productivity is not worth it for me. The experiment did teach me how to improve my ergonomics. I optimized my desk height and bought a very flat and less wide keyboard, with the completely unused numpad section chopped off ("TKL") so if I do grab my mouse there is less travel.

precompute 233 days ago |

I've been using a 42-key corne for 5 years and I can't imagine using a regular keyboard. The way I sit is now different: my arms are spread apart instead of crowding in front of me. This alone helps me pay more attention to the work I'm doing because I'm not hunching over. It took a few months for the layout to sink in, but the ability to customize the layout was insanely helpful and now the way I interface with a computer is exactly how I think it ought to be. The entire thing was $90 with a 3d printed case that's still holding strong. I tented it with some jenga blocks and it's flawless. I almost never look at the thing.

The Moonlander is way too large IMO. A 42 key layout is about perfect and requires ~zero wrist movement.

The corne has three thumb buttons on each side, but it's effectively five thumb buttons on each side because two can be pressed at the same time. So your layout can be [Mod1] [Layer] [Mod2] and you can easily use [Mod1]/[Mod2] with anything on [Layer]. And when you press [Mod1], a thumb key on the other hand becomes [Mod2]. So you basically get to use every possible combo. I have five mod keys this way: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Super and Hyper. And multiple layer keys.

kixiQu 233 days ago |

I love my Ergodox EZ except that I haven't flashed it for years and I'm not totally sure what all the keys did on all the layers. Still worth it, somehow!!

patel011393 233 days ago |

I solved my RSI with rest, a vertical mouse, and ZSA Moonlanders. I eventually bought one for home use and one for work use with great performance for the past four years. I can’t imagine going back, especially after replacing the key switches to quieter variants.

The split keyboard opens up the middle of my desk to fit an adjustable stand (Parblo and ElevationLab work well). So I can write and draw by hand if I want.

knlb 233 days ago |

Another vote for the Glove 80: I used the Kinesis Advantage 2 for 10 years (after a few initial signs of finger pain developing), then tried the new 360; and recently got the glove 80 so I could easily travel with it and fell in love with the keyboard.

It definitely doesn't feel as solid as the Kinesis or ergodox (which I used intermittently as well) but is the most comfortable keyboard I've used, the LEDs are actually useful (for showing battery life and bluetooth connections), and there are enough keys (including function keys); I don't like having to reason about layers at all, I want to be able to smoothly transition to my laptop's keyboard in a pinch).

egypturnash 233 days ago |

There are still key combos that I could tap out with lightning speed on my old keyboard that I still struggle to type as fast: C-M-- (negative argument) followed by another key, such as C-M-k, is one such example.

I wish I had more keys, yet ironically I have empty keys I do not use at all on the keyboard.

Stick those sequences on those empty keys as macros. Or assign one of those empty keys to control-meta.

lotophage 233 days ago |

I struggled with the Moonlander although it is a wonderful keyboard.

I mapped it to a Colemak layout varient when I first got it. I was constantly discovering key combos that didn't quite work for whatever reason and made tweaks to the layout or the shortcuts in various editors. Forever tying my brain in knots learning and relearning mappings and combos. Then I'd frequently jump on other peoples computers/laptops to help out with small things and have to switch back to the old mode of thinking.

It ended up being a productivity sink rather than a boon. I don't know whether I would have crossed some inflection point if I had persevered, but there was always this fixed cost of tweaking shortcuts when using new software that was more burdensome than with a plain qwerty keyboard.

Maybe I was too ambitious and should have avoided the Colemak-esque layout, but I haven't managed to summon the stamina to give it a fair go again. I still use one half of it for gaming though. It's really sweet for that.

tpmoney 233 days ago | |

I found I couldn't get colemak to work for me. Like you said, too many key combos that just felt awkward. I wound up using a layout[1] called "middlemak" that feels much more comfortable to me, and preserves a lot of qwerty hand if not actual key positions, which helped in the initial switch. Took me a few months to get up to a relatively normal typing speed and a year in (of maybe 2-4 days of use a week depending on whether I'm working from the road or not) and I still have to look at my keys about 50% of the time, but it's improving and since I only customized this one keyboard, it doesn't seem to have broken my muscle memory for a standard qwerty keyboard.

[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...

martythemaniak 233 days ago | |

I'd say it's definitely the colemak change. They keyboard by itself takes some getting used to, a new layout on top would be overwhelming.

I kept mine pretty close to a standard qwerty - the only customizations are where I put the "\|", backspace, dash and a few other keys, along with what to do with all the thumb keys. Even with these relatively minor changes, it still took me about a week to recover my WPM, and I had to use their touch typing software to practice for an hour or two. Making only a few changes also makes it seamless to switch to laptop keyboards, etc.

gundmc 233 days ago | | |

This matches my experience exactly. I use a standard QWERTY setup on the moonlander, with only changes being the thumb clusters and changing caps lock to backspace. After a few days of practicing, it feels natural and seamless to switch back and forth.

Svoka 233 days ago |

I love my moonlander. I bought it on release and it is best computer accessory I know of. I extensively customized the software. My favourite is controlling cursor with keyboard, I have one hand mode, etc.

One note — when I purchased the Moonlander their "The Platform" wasn't available. I bought it couple month ago and it improved experience even more.

sleepybrett 230 days ago |

IMO the moonlander and other ergodox type boards are nothing but worse kinesis advantage / dacyl keyboards.

By flattening the keywells the board requires more reach and worse outcomes though the thumbpads will probably help with most peoples wrist issues.

clippy99 230 days ago |

Lengthy article but not even one image of the Moonlander. OP, why do you make me Google it?

roxolotl 233 days ago |

Had been looking at these for some time. A few days of pain where I couldn’t type much and the threat tariffs turning on at the end of the month, this was early August, caused me to pull the trigger on a Voyager, ZSA’s low profile keyboard.

Couldn’t be happier. I’ve used QMK, even writing some C for a board, and limited key keyboards before and their software really does make it a lot simpler to configure. It’s also really nice to have leds indexable per key so you can color code things when you’re learning.

They cost a lot more now for those in the US[0] but I’d still recommend them. My pain hasn’t come back and honestly even at +20% that’s worth it.

0: https://www.reddit.com/r/zsaVoyager/comments/1n9en4b/us_tari...

redelbee 230 days ago |

First off, I appreciate the thorough explanation and review of the ZSA Moonlander. That said, I’m here to discuss the “visual ergonomics” of this post.

Why is justified text so bad on the web? And why do people still use it, despite how terrible it looks? When I was in journalism school I learned how to properly justify text with line breaks, tracking, and other techniques to make sure we didn’t have “rivers” of blank space through the text or other hard-to-read layouts. Is there no way to achieve the same readable outcome today with CSS, or otherwise?

If not, I beg of you: Please don’t use justified text on the web!

nickzelei 232 days ago |

I bought a moonlander in 2020 after work gave us a work from home credit when we transitioned to remote for Covid. I tried it but couldn’t get into it and it sat collecting dust for years. In 2024 I dove back into splits with a kinesis freestyle 2. I loved it as it felt more natural as it’s a basic keyboard just split.

After I got used to that I was able to migrate to the moonlander pretty easily. I just had to spend the time to sent it up properly for programming.

Now I own 2, each with the platform addon, which solves many of the issues with tenting as you no longer have to pivot the thumb cluster. It is expensive though.

Both keyboards also have shrimp switches to make typing pretty quiet.

This combined with a ball mouse have solved my RSI that developed a few years ago entirely.

tcmart14 233 days ago |

Just got the ZSA Voyager a couple months ago and love it. It goes with me to and from work. For me, the biggest draw is just the more natural sitting position, I've found that I love having my trackball mouse in the center between the two halves along with a cup of coffee.

marvin-hansen 233 days ago |

I got a moonlander for programming. The defaulting tenting is indeed a lame joke, so I got the platform, which is made out of steel(!). It's heavy, but rock solid and stable. I mapped commonly used Fn-key combos on the number rows as long press i.e. cmd-Fn-4 is a long press on 4. The web UI makes this dead simple to setup and customize. That said, I read from the guy who build the Svalboard to put the keyboard on a tray below the desk. I actually did that and, man, that was a revelation. I have one of those motorized desks with adjustable height, and with the tray the Moonlander is now roughly on the same level as the arm rest from the chair. It reduced the tension in my shoulders noticeably. It's a vastly improved typing experience.

wodenokoto 232 days ago |

I dipped my toes in mechanical keyboards by going from an Apple keyboard to the low profile keyChron. I really like the idea of custom keycaps and tinkering with different clickers but in the end I just type better on the Apple keyboard.

Got the flat Logitech for work where we use windows.

I’m not saying this is the right choice for everyone but low profile and low travel is nice on the wrists and nice to type on, and it just might also be the right choice for you.

It’s a lot more boring though.

As for ergonomics, just stay away from the home row. I don’t know why that’s a recommended position, but I can see why you’d get wrist pain if you are placing your fingers on the home row most of the time.

a1o 233 days ago |

There’s too much filler in this writing. And can’t find a photo of the specific mentioned keyboard?

ARandomerDude 230 days ago |

I've had a Moonlander and a few other ergo mechanical keyboards. I never liked them and they didn't seem to help my forearm pain as much as I hoped.

After a lot of time and well over $1,000, the 2 things that solved it for me were: (1) get a soft, membrane-style wireless keyboard and put it in my lap when I type. I've found the Logitech MX Keys to be the most comfortable. (2) Use compression arm bands when typing. They're cheap.

All-in, you're looking at about $150 for a high-comfort solution. YMMV.

larrry 232 days ago |

I have had bad cubital tunnel in the past, enough so that I was learning to become ambidextrous to stop using my left hand. A surgery helped tremendously in my case, but I’m still prone to flare ups if I overuse my pinky.

An Ergodox EZ has been a lifesaver, I’ve reprogrammed it so I don’t need to use my left pinky anything other than letter keys (goodbye left shift, you’ve pained me for too long). I fully agree with the articles advice; pair a good programmable keyboard with physical activity to keep the hands working long term.

Be warned though: the more customized your keyboard the harder it is type when using a laptop or friends keyboard.

sesm 232 days ago | |

I'm using Ergodox for 9 years and still can touch type fluently on laptop keyboard. However, I never do heavy programming tasks on the laptop, only messaging, notes and small fixes.

I think the more customized your Ergodox layout is the easier it is for the brain to treat 2 different keyboards as 2 different input devices.

jweather 230 days ago |

My daily driver is an Allium58 not too different from the Moonlander. I love having modifier keys to set up macro functions and layers. My favorites from an ergonomics standpoint are Mod1+WASD for arrow keys (Q=home, E=end), Mod1+Capslock for double-click, and Mod1+Tab for middle click (my trackball doesn't have one). It didn't take too long to get to a faster WPM than I had on my previous 101-key mechanical, and I can go back to normal keyboards when I have to.

Cyphus 230 days ago |

In regards to the tenting not staying in place, put some threadlocker on the bolts. It does wonders. I got some threadlocker to stop my adjustable bar stool feet from slowly unscrewing themselves and getting wobbly every week and it's easily the best purchase I've made all year. Anytime I see a loose door knob, chair leg, tripod mount, or adjustment screw, I throw some threadlocker on there and never have to tighten it again.

sph 233 days ago |

I bought a ZSA Moonlander a few years ago and it went a bit like this:

1. Unpack and immediately set up a Colemak-DH layout. Customize the layout twice a day for 4 months. This is PAINFUL, slow and unproductive.

2. Got comfortable with Colemak and stopped doing any typing exercises. Still tweaking my layout.

3. Didn’t know where to position my mouse, so I got an Apple Trackpad 2 that sits beautifully between the two halves. Works great on Linux. Keep the mouse around for gaming.

4. Finally productive. I make minor changes to my layout every 6 months. Colemak is ingrained in my muscle memory. It’s just so comfortable.

And don’t worry about forgetting how to type QWERTY; the secret to retain muscle memory is that an ortholinear split keyboard is sufficiently different from a regular one that it’s like learning a completely new instrument. Hard at first, but it would be hard even if the layout was familiar; might as well then switch to something better than QWERTY.

I love my split keyboard now. Games are a bit annoying but I can easily switch to my gaming-QWERTY-hybrid layout (QWERTY on the left hand, colemak w/ tweaks on the right). Specialist tools like Blender might need minor rebinding to find comfort.

When I type on a regular laptop, I find shift+numbers for symbols to be hilariously unergonomic compared to my symbol layer, I don’t know how the hell people cope doing Rust or Haskell or even Lisp.

rswail 233 days ago |

So I have a WASD ISO full keyboard with Cherry Blue keys that I did custom MacOS keytops for that is starting to lose both keytop prints and the keys are starting to occasionally misfire.

How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/option/fn) and the appropriate MacOS function key tops?

All of the ISO that I could find have one or another of the EU layouts, which I don't need or want.

bostik 233 days ago | |

Keychron? I realise their prebuilt variants may have ISO layouts only for the various EU market segments, but they all run QMK so you could reflash with en-US keymap. They come with a set of replacement Mac/Win keycaps already, and have a physical switch to flip between the two variants.

Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout.

(Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11. Both require a wrist support, they are thick.)

rswail 233 days ago | | |

The keychron K10 max seems closest to what I want and has the keytops I want (with a bit of rearranging). The UK keytops are the closest to what I want,

I already use Karabiner to swap a few things, so that's probably the closest.

Just need to be able to get blue switches, I WFH and there's no one around to be bothered by the clicking.

Considering I started "typing" on an ASR-33, and then an original IBM PC, I want the clicks :)

nine_k 233 days ago | |

That might be hard to find, but pretty easy to configure. Take any ISO keyboard you like, buy custom keycaps for the keys you want to look different.

YVoyiatzis 233 days ago |

Switched early to a left-handed 65% keyboard setup—Keychron K7 Max QM7 on the left, Trackpad Pro and MX Master 3S on the right. Feels quick, natural, and fixes what Apple’s keyboards never did.

lanfeust6 230 days ago |

My intuition is that being a split keyboard provides a good part of the benefit, informed by my experience with a no-frills split keyboard.

rajman187 233 days ago |

My main keyboard has been a 34-key split Ferris. I usually have either a trackpad between the halves if I’m using a Mac or an ergonomic Logitech if on my Linux desktop. Not having to move my hands at all while being able to reach any keys/characters I need has been a welcomed change, worth remapping my brain.

https://arjtala.github.io/2022/09/17/ferris-compact.html

Eji1700 233 days ago | |

Agreed. It quickly becomes "awkward" to go back to using a numpad once you get used to ALWAYS being one key hold/press away from it. I can type numbers as easily as I can type capitals, ditto with every symbol, and my function keys.

Hell I've even worked on a couple of revision on "gaming" layers. Namely for FPS or older roguelikes.

I hate how hard it is to find a split space(feels mandatory now that i'm used to it) 40% with wireless and QMK/Zia/etc. The EPOMAKER-TH40 SHOULD be perfect, but turns out they put out a breaking patch or something and it's not ACTUALLY programmable anymore. I need something like this for 2 setups at homes.

I went around on a couple of things and landed on the split 4x5 Chiri CE for my everyday workhorse since it's easy to carry.

https://keeb.io/products/chiri-ce-keyboard-kit?variant=41088...

Of note, while that board seems to be out of stock and isn't for everyone i cannot recommend keeb.io enough. They've done a fantastic job of keeping my board running after I had some ESD ruin it once or twice, and have never charged me as it was still under warranty.

With how hit or miss a lot of this niche keyboard stuff is, it's really really nice to find people who stand by their product and can turn things around. I get its got to be a miserable market so I don't demand it, and I'm extremely happy when I do see it.

Symbiote 233 days ago |

I put together https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ a while ago to help decide between ergonomic keyboards.

However, it's not become a hobby, and I'm satisfied with the keyboards I bought in 2019 and have no plans to replace them.

If anyone is interested in taking over the site, I'm willing to transfer the repository, which should mean GitHub make an HTTP redirect.

zamalek 233 days ago |

This may or may not change your perspective on keyboards. Assuming Covid never happened:

- How many hours a day do you spend driving?

- How much do you/did you spend on your car?

- Did you purchase the cheapest car that just filled the need you had (aesthetics, comfort, etc. are therefore off the table, "gets N people to N places")? If not, why not?

- How many hours a day do you spend typing?

- How much did you spend on your keyboard?

If you haven't tried a good mechanical keyboard see if you know someone who has one and spend some time using it.

CarVac 230 days ago |

My opinion on column stagger ergo keyboards: everyone's hands differ, and there is no one-size-fits-all.

The amount of pinky stagger and the thumb cluster position are critically important for comfort.

Personally I use a handwired Mitosis (the original Mitosis was unreliable for me but the layout perfect).

Ergodox is awful for me, particularly the reaching needed to use the thumb cluster.

lawn 230 days ago | |

I wholeheartedly agree. The Ergodox is god-damned horrible for me and I've struggled a lot to find a good thumb cluster.

The Ferris comes close but in the end I configured and 3D printed my own keyboard, tailored specifically for me:

https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/building_my_ulti...

floren 233 days ago |

Oddly, switching to a custom Lisp Machine-inspired keyboard has been better for hand/wrist pain than my Ergodox or the Kinesis Advantage I used before. It's a staggered key, non-split, flat QWERTY keyboard. I think maybe they're just good keyswitches? Here's the keyboard: https://jfloren.net/b/2024/10/23/0

fooker 232 days ago |

Here’s a reminder to everyone that you don’t have to spend 300$ to use a great mechanical keyboard.

Get a decent cheap one (ideally with switchable switches!) for 50, use it for a while, then figure out if you want better switches (20-30$ for the best ones).

If you want to make keyboards your hobby, sure, go nuts. But also consider using the keyboard, you know—as an input device to a computer, to build something great!

peterdstallion 232 days ago |

It's my go-to keyboard. I can't recommend it enough. My only regret is I didn't buy it earlier.

It's definitely way more ergonomic - I believe that's incredibly important if you're going to be spending decades in front of a screen. At the very least don't make it easy to be hunched over.

Last but not least - coming from a non-mechanical keyboard before - the switch is super satisfying.

ryangibb 233 days ago |

Given the website, is worth noting that keyboards like this can avoid the infamous Emacs pinky. I've got the keys two rows below the homerow bound to the modifiers right alt, super, alt, control, and shift. And reversed on the other hand. This makes any modifier shortcuts very ergonomic -- one hand 'chords' the modifiers and the other hits the non-modifier key.

andrewjf 233 days ago |

I have two moonlanders but wound up giving up because I just couldn't adapt to it. And when writing code, finding the symbols like {, =, }, and other common coding ones was just too difficult to retain muscle memory. I tried many layouts, I tried to make my own, and at the end of the day it was just too different. I wish I had a better experience.

Any recommendations?

alfiedotwtf 230 days ago |

There’s nothing more fitting than a completely customisable keyboard for an Emacs enthusiast!

Thinking now though, it would be cool to have Emacs layers on a keyboard to cover C-x etc.

Side note: in 2025 it would have been nice if ZSA would make a wireless version :(

JSR_FDED 233 days ago |

I had rapidly worsening RSI, thought my career as a developer was ending. Switching to VIM completely solved it. Not to take away from what fancy keyboards can do for you, but if you were already contemplating VIM then this would be a great (additional) reason to try it.

daft_pink 233 days ago |

The thing I don’t like about keyboards this is that I still have to use a mouse and these keyboards don’t really address that. If I mounted on the arms of my desk, it’s even harder to get to the mouse. Maybe a few people can get away with just them all day, but I can’t.

epiccoleman 233 days ago | |

It's a pretty big departure from traditional keyboards, but there are a bunch of dactyl variants which have a trackball in the thumb cluster. I'm not sure how practical this really is, having never used one, but it's conceptually nifty.

benhurmarcel 232 days ago | |

There’s this as well: https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/

danpalmer 233 days ago | |

I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and I have the trackball module for it. Life changing. I don't use a mouse anymore and instead have a trackball right under my thumb.

daft_pink 233 days ago | | |

Wow. UHK has Trackball, Trackpoint or Trackpad options and you can click with the left thumb while moving with the right. That’s incredible! Thanks!

Maybe someday I can afford this, but I miss the IBM Thinkpad Trackpoint.

quantummagic 233 days ago |

I use a $20 keyboard/mousepad combo. But with the open source Kanata keyboard software, it's more powerful and configurable than QMK. It's brilliant. Not for everybody, but even the author in the article said 80% of the value add, is QMK.

jjcm 230 days ago |

If you're looking for a split keyboard that still has a more standard row-staggered layout, I'd highly rec the Dygma Raise.

Far less of a learning curve and the build quality is quite good.

moron4hire 233 days ago |

I've found just switching between differently shaped keyboards regularly was enough to cure my RSI. I don't have anything fancy: a Unicomp Model M at work and a Microsoft Natural at home.

RS-232 230 days ago |

If you like the 7-row ThinkPad keyboard, the Tex Shinobi is awesome.

It even comes with an OEM red trackpoint nipple but I swapped mine out for a blue one.

thorncorona 233 days ago |

I owned a Moonlander before and found that the keyboard layout didn’t matter much to my productivity.

I have a Microsoft sculpt at work, and a macbook. The macbook keyboard has been great IME.

ChoGGi 232 days ago |

Kinda off topic for this discussion, but has anyone found a 8 key macro keyboard that doesn't wear out after a few months?

It seems to be the usb plug failing that does it.

dataangel 233 days ago |

If you have serious RSI I strongly suggest Svalboard.

https://svalboard.com/

still 232 days ago | |

Having gone down the rabbit hole of concave keyboards from Kinesis advantage to iterations of self printed dactyl manifolds I ended up at Svalboard too.

Combined with adjustable carrier arms it has enabled me to continue working even post recent shoulder surgery.

Yes it’s an obscene amount of money but it works and enables me to continue earning a living in front of a screen.

ivanb 233 days ago |

The whole area is full of contradictions:

- mechanical keys - reduced movement;

- buy a custom build - have industrial build quality;

- barely any movement - good blood flow;

- avoid rolling - type fast;

- concave keyboards - tenting;

- fewer keys - minimal;

- uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback;

- keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely;

- custom layout - conventional shortcuts.

This is ridiculous. I no longer take this field seriously. I get it, we get bored and need a new toy sometimes. Some indeed acquired a medical condition and need medical equipment to type now.

I noticed when I exercise I can sit comfortably on a firm basic stool, and when I don't I become a princess on a pea.

How about we start with the basics? Good posture, correct hand positions, monitor at the right level, exercise, nutrition. Then an IBM Model M would suffice.

waynesonfire 233 days ago |

Those thumbs are doing a lot of work. Can't imagine that being ergonomic.

kgc 233 days ago |

Have a Glove80 on the way.

spit2wind 232 days ago |

Steno is 100% the way to go to avoid and heal RSI. Infinitely more ergonomic. It also erases much of the difference between Emacs and VIM (assuming you use repeat and 1up). Yes, it has to be learned. But you already learned Emacs or VIM, so clearly you're not afraid to invest a little now for a big return later (e.g. no RSI). It's also fun.