Great post - point by point refutation of the "don't get an MBA".

One thing I would like to add - finding and filling the gaps in your knowledge.

Repost from "the don't get an MBA" thread : There might be an education bubble. There might be an anti-education bias - especially here. But even with the best online tools and classes, what you learn with a standard curriculum is just better - that's the sad truth, and it is even truer if you are a self directed learner and don't care about the grades. Case in point - I got interested in economics and started reading books - then followed online courses and videos from prestigious universities and so on. Purchased textbooks, etc. I worked seriously, but I soon realized that the freedom to dig on subjects I thought worth investigating was mitigated by the lack of common knowledge expected for advancing my knowledge further. You can look at that like a multiple dependancies problem - except that you don't know about these dependancies beforehand. With a traditional class, you acquire the same vocabulary, the same comparison basis and so on - and that's priceless. I have started taking classes, and I now realize that. I learn about topics I would have never learnt on my own and I realize 'yes, they could be quite useful'. Please realize I'm not even taking about the network or other benefits you may find in an MBA - just the actual knowledge. I haven't done an MBA (yet?), but I guess most of the commenters here haven't either - and haven't even tried and given up (which would then be interesting to know). So I wonder how they can judge about its pertinence. Before this experience, I was also imbued in delusions of "online learning that made everything possible". But there's a dependency ceiling - I've touched it. Personally, if I can enroll in one, I know I will.

I actually dropped out halfway through a 2-year full time MBA degree from the same school as the author of the blog post, this spring. My experience was a bit different - most of the people in the full-time program were younger and didn't have that much outside industry experience. I met a few people in the executive MBA program (part-time, nights and weekends), and they all seemed to be not only much more experienced and knowledgeable, but having a lot more fun too.

If I were to do this over again (which I won't, this experience really cemented that a classroom is the worst possible learning style for me), I would definitely go with the advice to get into the best possible MBA program I could (I got a 700 on the GMAT on the first try without studying, but chose to go to school in Montreal for the location and tuition). There is only one objective criteria for how good schools are - how wealthy and influential their alumni become. The huge expenses associated with an MBA program are basically a toll fee to keep the poor rabble out of the rich kids' club. It's worth getting in there to become friends with these people.

I don't see how this actually supports the pursuit of an MBA.

For instance, the first point is that you learn a range of subjects, and while acknowledging that you could learn them each through a book, MBA programs let you talk about these subjects with people from unique backgrounds. Why do I need an MBA program to do that? I can quickly find plenty of people from any of the aforementioned industries outside of an MBA program. This is a weak point.

The second point is that it is cheap. I've lived in NYC, worked in finance, and know plenty of MBAs, and the general rule is, if your MBA isn't from a top-tier school, it's hard to justify getting one (more on that in a moment). Just saying you can get a cheap MBA doesn't support the point getting an MBA.

The 5th point probably illustrates best why NOT to get an MBA. MBA programs, historically, have been breeding grounds for large corporations to hire executives from, especially if you come from a top-tier program. However, I don't think entrepreneurship really gives a shit where you went to school or what you studied. Empirically, it doesn't seem to have much impact. Until an MBA program can actually demonstrate that a significant portion of their graduates go on to have a more successful run in startups, I don't think there is a great argument for pursuing an MBA to start a company.

Hmm, so this is coming from a person who only had to pay 10k USD for their MBA. The reality is that most of us face an MBA option of many times that in costs.

Or just use this recipe: Be dumb enough to try but smart enough and dedicated enough to make it happen. Throw in a dash of luck. If you're successful, know when to quit. If you're not successful know when to quit.

I hate to say it but ...

I think an MBA is a waste of time for most people, but especially those who have business degrees for their BAs. I have looked recently, but in the early 2000's it cost me an average of $110k to hire a good programmer and we realized we could hire MBAs for between $55k and $60k to twiddle Microsoft Project. We certainly got a lot more work out of our programmers by letting the dull drudge-work pass to those poor MBAs.

Depends on the person. I headed to SF and learned more over the last 3 months than I've learned during any period of my life. Surround yourself with aspiring people and learn from them. You will get way more than any MBA program.

I spent today reading about Avon because of an article that I found on Linkedin, followed up by a search fueled my own curiosity and drive to learn. I found it really, really interesting.

I just quit a startup because of too many MBAs walking around (as the article puts it) "blindly executing" with nobody actually working on shipping.

Kawasaki was right.

Yikes. I'm a huge proponent of education generally, but this guy isn't exactly making a compelling argument for getting an MBA. (And, in my experience, MBAs haven't been able to offer any better advice than other experienced businesspeople -- nor even as good advice.)

"If you were to listen to some startup types (or worse yet, your early-stage VC investors) you’d skip grad school, stick to ramen in your garage while trying to nail a huge viral coefficient and plastering whiteboards with agile index cards and a huge ass lean canvas."

This is currently the advice that many people in the startup industry are giving because it works. You may choose to ignore the advice of successful people because you feel it doesn't apply to whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, but to simply blow it off as poor advice is pretty stupid.

"You’ll know enough of everything business-y to be dangerous."

Yeah, that's been my observation about MBAs in business, too. </snark>

"An MBA will teach you the fundamental theory that lets you answer each of these questions."

Fundamental theory just doesn't teach the way that experience does, especially when it comes to subjective things like leadership. Hell, I read a ton of psychology, I can "type" most people within a few minutes of conversation or observation, and I've got practice at leadership, and I'm still not nearly as good of a leader as someone who frequently plays a key role in a team sport.

"Think that Avon has nothing to teach you about statup marketing? Think about how they built the ULTIMATE affiliate program and drove millions in revenue through user-acquisition before Zuck was even born."

So what? If you're a startup founder and you want to shortcut this, you can read about it, or, better yet, get peer or mentor advice. That's why startup networks exist. And, is their affiliate program what made them successful? What were the long-term effects on their brand? Is it still driving their business? What if we compare them to other companies in their market that don't do affiliate programs? Let's not just mention a case study without explaining why it applies.

"I’m blessed to have people from Montreal to Mumbai in my MBA network that have built web startups, ran construction firms, brought pharamceuticals to market and kept steel mills running."

And I have the internet.

I win.

"I was lucky that in Quebec we pay the lowest costs for tuition in North America. My entire MBA cost under $10,000 (including books) through massive government subsidization..."

Ha. So, before you even start your business, go into debt first. How many of you could start more than one startup with $10,000? I bet a few. That's two failures, two opportunities at success, two practical real-world life experiences to learn from, before an MBA even gets started.

"To make an educated decision about whether or not the tuition is worth it MBA style, you need to figure out the ROI."

Things an MBA teaches you, number one: don't say "whether it's worth it" when you can say "the ROI" instead.

"Thing is, it’s hard to put a precise dollar amount on the return you’ll get from your degree in the context of your first tech startup."

In other words, literally "not clearly worth it". Might be, might not be. For 10+ grand, that's an even bigger gamble than your first startup.

"MBA programs suck up your time. There’s no escaping it. If you want to do well, you need to work hard, attend a ton of group meetings, and write a heck of a lot of powerpoint decks. However, in a startup, you won’t have it any easier. An MBA is a great way to teach you how to find balance between your work and your personal life."

An MBA does not magically make these things easier, and I disagree that a startup has to be subjected to the same ton of group meetings and powerpoint decks. People who choose to upset their work/life balance do so because they want to hustle, not because they don't have an MBA and don't know any better.

I could start a 9-to-5 schedule tomorrow. So could most of you. My business has made it; it'll be self-sustaining on that schedule. But I want it to get bigger, and I want it to get bigger quickly, so I'm working more hours -- same as I would if I bought an MBA for 10 grand and 4 years' work.

"I quickly learned how to balance it all and launched a startup. By the time I graduated, I had been on TechCrunch, through an accelerator, had a product in market, revenue and was interviewing my first employee."

Good! But, again, he's not presenting anything compelling that says that the MBA got him there.

"That said, how much disruption can you really create when everyone in your circle has the same worldview?"

I think the whole "disruption" thing is a little bit silly, but this is a dumb statement. If you want to disrupt an industry, one of the first questions you'll be asked by startup investors is whether or not you have experience in that industry and whether or not you've talked to your potential customers. An MBA does not magically grant you access to insider information that you can't get from startup networks and customer research.

"MBA’s learn how to do it the traditional way: market studies and business plans (think lean startup but with a 30 page report stuck to it)."

So, not a lean startup.

These reports for most businesses are complete fiction. They're full of numbers that get invented by the author sitting back and imagining things. "My market has X people in it, the demographics are Y, if I target foo percent of channels bar and baz, I should be able to make quux!"

--

I get that he was responding to another guy's blog about the benefits of not getting an MBA, that he feels was bad advice, but he really hasn't presented a strong case in favor of the MBA.

HNer kstenerud called it, in the previous thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4642484

Interesting view and breakdown of the post. But I believe the best advice in general is the same as what parents would say to their child and that's to get an education. This doesn't mean one can't succeed in life without an education, but without experience your odds are always better if you have one.