Outlawed by Amazon DRM

1445 points by paulsilver 13 years ago | 479 comments

cs702 13 years ago |

Could you ever imagine a local retailer in your area breaking and entering into your home, taking away all your books, and then not giving you a straightforward explanation as to why they did so? Me neither. Breaking and entering into someone else's physical property, and talking away their physical possessions without explanation is so obviously wrong and illegal!

Yet that's pretty much what Amazon did to this poor woman, except in the digital realm: Amazon 'broke and entered' into her Kindle, took away all her books, and then did not give her a straightforward explanation as to why they did so.

More alarmingly, Amazon did this with impunity, because this woman never really owned "her" books or, for that matter, anything else she "purchased" on "her" Kindle. In the digital realm, what Amazon did to this woman is perfectly legal.

Legal or not, this looks, smells, and feels so obviously wrong, it ought to be illegal.

pi18n 13 years ago | |

It absolutely should be illegal to delete files from a device that is currently rented or owned by another party unless they give explicit permission.

It should be wire fraud, just like hacking a server and forcing it to act in a way the owner does not desire.

mdasen 13 years ago | | |

The problem is that Kindle users probably did give explicit permission (for some definition of explicit permission). I'm sure there's a clause in the ToS that allows Amazon to delete content that you've purchased.

I'm not the type to sound the drum saying that piracy isn't theft, but here it seems like it's trying to go both ways. It's property if you "steal" it and it isn't property if you've bought it.

Part of the problem is that the law hasn't kept up with the digital age. Lawyers/judges are notably technophobes (as a whole) which I'm sure has kept it back. Plus, generally speaking, technology enjoys a nice balance of good companies, competition, and plenty of release valves (ie, piracy). In general, these events are rare and that keeps the world from addressing the underlying issues - it just rarely comes up as an issue for someone and when it does, they could find a way (like piracy) to make themselves whole again (and I know it isn't equivalent, but piracy is often a lower barrier than legal action). There are a lot of other issues where people are more likely to become un-whole with less easy recourse.

Right now, issues of what a license to digital content offers is a bit in flux. I think a lot of us have a similar idea to what we think it should mean, but that doesn't mean that the legal system does or will acknowledge that. We sometimes get complacent because we're in a pretty positive industry and often times regulation can stifle innovation. However, this might be an area where we want a standard definition of term rental (for things like the Zune music service) and license purchase (like a Kindle Book) that would allow for things like re-selling and such. Otherwise, we'll likely continue to be beholden to the ToS that we all just click "accept" on.

dorfsmay 13 years ago | | |

The issue is not the user permission, the issue is that in the physical world, the retailer would have to go through the court system to take away a right or property.

It's interesting how http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Lessig described this situation back in 2004 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Culture_%28book%29

otakucode 13 years ago | |

Until someone rich enough to fight this to the Supreme Court is screwed by these policies, they will stand, it's as simple as that. These sorts of policies are NOT new. EVERY industry has tried to rob consumers of property rights. And every other industry has a collection of case law establishing that the types of contracts digital content distributors put forward are just illegal. But, since it hasn't been established for digital property yet, we need court cases.

If Apple, Steam, and Amazon decided tomorrow that they wanted you to pay $10/item in your 'library' of things you have 'purchased' in order to be able to access it again, according to their contracts their users agreed to, they would be entirely within the contract to do that.

Expect publishers and digital content providers to wail and gnash their teeth and swear that giving consumers actual property rights will completely destroy their business. Other industries tried the same scare tactics. They're just lies. Being able to transfer your property, sell it 'used', etc actually massively boosts the success of markets and hopefully it is inevitable that this kind of thing will be extended to digital content.

kybernetikos 13 years ago | | |

I wonder what it would take to get the accounts of well known bloggers or Mr Bezos himself 'directly related to another which has been previously closed for abuse of our policies'.

joshnerius 13 years ago | |

I've often wondered about the viability of students purchasing or renting textbooks for the Kindle. Just imagine the panic/terror that would ensue if a student's collection of textbooks just disappeared in the middle of a semester.

If my collection of novels disappears, I'm inconvenienced. If my collection of textbooks disappears, my academic progress is severely jeopardized. Both seem extremely wrong as you mention, but I see potential for situations that are life-ruiningly wrong.

MrMember 13 years ago | | |

When Amazon remotely deleted 1984 from people's Kindles a few years ago a student lost the digital notes he had been creating as he was reading it for a class. He ended up suing Amazon, but I have no idea if it was ever resolved or if it's still ongoing.

donniezazen 13 years ago | | |

First think came to my mind. I am reading textbook for a course I am taking. I am not taking any paper notes as I just highlight and take online note on Kindle Reader Webapp/mobile app. I would be devastated if I lose my bookmarkings and data.

Evbn 13 years ago | | |

This is the thesis of RMS's The Right to Read, written over 30 years ago, and one of the few works to have passed from the genre of science fiction to historical fact, by remaining unchanged while the world changed over time.

mightybyte 13 years ago | |

I completely agree with you, but the consumer here isn't without fault. By purchasing a Kindle and DRM'd books for it, you're agreeing to Amazon's policies. It's true that kindle books don't work like regular books, but being ignorant of that fact isn't an excuse.

This is why I categorically refuse to pay a single penny for any digital media that has DRM attached to it and might prevent me from playing it at any time in the future and that I can't back up to my own media.

cloverich 13 years ago | | |

> It's true that kindle books don't work like regular books, but being ignorant of that fact isn't an excuse.

I very much doubt there's a plain english clause that goes a little something like:

"If we think you have violated (our?) DRM policies, we will delete every book you've ever purchased, and close your current and future accounts. If you think this is done in error, you may not ask us why we closed the account. You may only sue us to get an answer"

To call out a consumer for not being prepared for a no-warning, no explanation ban (and removal of all legally purchased content) seems extreme.

dripton 13 years ago | | |

Good for you. I also categorically refused to buy anything with DRM on it, until I caved and bought a Kindle last year. I figured the DRM on the Kindle was at least easy to crack, so I could make backups of my books to keep Amazon from stealing them from me. But I must confess that I haven't been diligent about backing up my ebooks.

engtech 13 years ago | | |

"It's true that kindle books don't work like regular books, but being ignorant of that fact isn't an excuse."

Have you tried explaining to a non-technical person about remote wipes?

I had a 20 minute discussion on this subject with a 58 year old friend of mine who has a doctorate, presents at conferences, etc.

I spent the first 15 minutes convincing him that the ebook publish had the right to do a remote wipe.

He remained unconvinced that an ebook publisher would ever do a remote wipe because it would be bad for business.

cabalamat 13 years ago | |

> Legal or not, this looks, smells, and feels so obviously wrong, it ought to be illegal.

How many people, if they'd known this could happen, would have bought a Kindle in the first place? I suspect many would not. Digital rights activists need to educate the public that DRM = you have no rights.

greenyouse 13 years ago | |

DRM isn't exactly great for authors or artists either. Here's a Doctorow article on DRM implications for book authors:

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/columns-and-blog...

Why use DRM? Demand an alternative, buy a physical copy, or holdout. Hopefully the ship will begin turning around soon.

brokentone 13 years ago | |

Should it really be illegal? Every time legislators get involved in these Internet legalities, they don't understand what they're doing. While we (technical young folks) understand the similarities to breaking and entering, somehow they end up seeing similarities to trucks and "series of tubes." Big business can be annoying, but they are nothing like big lobbyist groups like RIAA and MPAA, and as soon as legislation comes up, these people end up being primary influencers. Or the legislators push through favorable bills for these people and immediately leave and become their chairmen (Chris Dodd/MPAA anyone?).

beedogs 13 years ago | |

It amazes me how the concept of "non-scarce" goods being a one-for-one substitute for physical items only seems to work in one direction in this brave new world in which we are unfortunately inhabiting, too.

If she'd been caught torrenting those same books in the US or a growing list of other countries, she'd face fines and court fees. Her Internet browser could be diverted to "anti-piracy education" sites; perhaps one day, she could be disconnected altogether.

Yet Amazon is allowed to arbitrarily remove those very same files with no explanation.

Pretty mindblowing how severely copyright has been perverted from its original intent.

smithzvk 13 years ago | | |

The one-way nature is exactly the crux of the matter. In a purely chaotic world where people do whatever was in their best interest in the short term, everybody would infringe on copyright whenever they wanted a book (or whatever "non-scarce" commodity) and the content producers would do whatever nasty tricks they felt would stop this from happening, including distributing your book in a form that can only be accessed via computers that you don't truly control and "reserving the right" to cut you off from what you "purchased".

We, fortunately, do not live in this world. However, from the standpoint of someone that prefers to purchase books, movies, and video games to promote these arts, it seems that the entities "selling" the content to me are more eager to head down that chaotic road than I am. That's not to diminish the fact that there are many rampant copyright infringers that have already happily moved down that road and could care less about long term benefit. It's just that I am not one of those people, and I don't deserve to be hit with the crap-storm that you intend for them, particularly when there is no evidence that they feel any of that storm at all.

So I long ago decided on a solution, just do what feels right. Buy from whatever distributor you like (I tend to stay away from Amazon, competition is always good) and then circumvent whatever DRM they place on it (for instance, go to one of those places of ill repute and get the book in an accessible format). It's not perfect, but it sure as hell is better than playing the game they set up.

pi18n 13 years ago | | |

I'm one of the ones to leap out of the woodwork and shout that copying is not theft, so it's only fair that I point out this; torrenting is a massive copyright violation, as you are basically republishing the content. What Amazon did in this case is not against copyright, and the user had no claim to copyright of that work anyway.

Make no mistake; I disagree with the humongous damages leveled against torrenters and I would be dead set against allowing an ISP to redirect or disconnect a user.

But Amazon doing something they claimed rights to in their ToS and sharing a copyrighted work via torrent are quite different.

techsupporter 13 years ago |

Tangentially related, I am getting very, very tired of "customer service" departments using phrases like:

"While we are unable to provide detailed information on how we link related accounts, please know that we have reviewed your account on the basis of the information provided and regret to inform you that it will not be reopened."

This happens more frequently: Google says this all the time, based on posts here; Amazon now does the same thing; even apartment rental companies will say "you've been turned down on the basis of this report that we don't know the contents of."

If your company can't reveal specific reasons or steps behind why an action was taken, DON'T TAKE THAT ACTION. Even my credit card issuer will tell me exactly why my card was flagged and they deal with ACTUAL MONEY. All these statements do is infuriate customers, create bad press, and drive away other customers. Scammers will just back up, look at their entire operation, and hammer away again with 300 new accounts so all you've accomplished is pissing off customers who want to do business with you.

cletus 13 years ago |

The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?).

Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stories like this on HN where I have had some inside knowledge and I can tell you that there have definitely been cases that vary between being one side of the story to being a distortion of facts and events to being outright lies.

It's a common theme to have a post of "[BigCo] shut down my account for no reason". I describe such stories as "unverifiable stories in which the poster is a victim".

Like I said, this could all be exactly as the poster claims but it might not be as well. It could be as simple as the person having the same name as someone who got blocked in the US. Who knows? Amazon needs to be extremely careful to be right in situations like this or they risk undermining the ecosystem they've spent so long to create.

I don't mind buying Kindle novels because I tend to only ever read them once. And if they were $6 (like the paperbacks often are) I'd view them as a throwaway purchase.

But when it comes to technical books--books I'll often refer back to and that can cost much more--I'll have to make sure I either only buy the PDF version or I buy the PDF+mobi+epub upgrade from the publisher after buying the Kindle book (2 thumbs up to publishers who do this BTW).

pwg 13 years ago |

This post really brings into focus just how right Richard Stallman was when he penned "The Right to Read":

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

wtrk 13 years ago | |

Indeed. But don't expect the sort of person whose battle cry w/re to RS is "But he's so unkempt!" to acknowledge that he tends to be correct.

jbellis 13 years ago | | |

The main reason Stallman isn't mainstream is not his physical appearance, but his refusal to compromise with potential allies on even minor details. Not to mention a truckload of NIH on the part of the FSF, although you could argue this is another side of the same coin.

jiggy2011 13 years ago | | |

Do you think that if stallman cut his hair and put on a suit his message would be better received?

chanux 13 years ago |

I e-mailed amazon using a feedback form[1]. following is what I wrote. I appreciate if other kindle owners can do the same to help Linn and for the greater good.

Dear Amazon,

Your service was really nice to me so far. But I happened to read a news that was not comforting. Following is a link to the story. http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/

This makes me hesitant about making any future purchases. I understand your right to act against any abuse but I also believe that users have a right know what was really going on, especially when they are being totally banished.

This email is to direct your attention towards the problem so you can have another chance of finishing things in a nicer way. I strongly believe DRM sucks but I also believe there are valid reasons for it to be there. The problem is not black or white. I'd like to see a solution that is acceptable for both parties (Amazon and the customer).

Thank you

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/kindle-help.html/r...

andyjohnson0 13 years ago |

Its getting to the point where I am seriously considering closing my Amazon account. I just don't like the way it does business any more. Can anyone recommend a good online bookseller in the UK? Is Waterstones any good?

The Guardian is running a story [1] today about how Amazon forces publishers to cover the cost of 20% VAT (sales tax) on ebook sales, even though it only pays 3% to the Luxembourg government (where it is based for tax purposes). It also insists that if a publisher offers a better price to another retailer then it must offer the same price to Amazon.

They also pay no corporation tax in the UK, despite sales of more than £3.3bn/yr [2], through being based in Luxembourg.

I was going to jump ship to The Book Depository, but Amazon bought them last year. Its hard to understand why this was allowed by the competition regulator, and it doesn't give me much confidence that the UK government has much interest in limiting their control of multiple markets.

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forc...

[2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-brit...

jwr 13 years ago |

I treat all E-books purchased with DRM as rentals.

When making a decision whether to buy or not, I look at the price and consider whether I'm willing to pay this much to rent the book for an indeterminate amount of time, possibly as little as 3 months. Quite often it turns out that the price is too high. But I never delude myself that I actually "own" any of the DRM-restricted content that I paid for.

mysterywhiteboy 13 years ago |

The lack of transparency from Amazon here is worrying.

Because it appears to be Amazon UK dealing with the account holder I'd be interested to know if she would get anywhere by submitting a Subject Information Request [1].

Under the Data Protection Act 1998 an individual can submit a request for personal information held by an organization and they must comply within 40 days.

Whether she would get the information she is interested in, i.e. which account she is linked to, is another question.

[1] http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/personal_information/ho...

rmc 13 years ago | |

Yes I was also thinking of the Data Protection Acts here aswell.

Whether she would get the information she is interested in, i.e. which account she is linked to, is another question.

Well if they don't provide it, they are breaking the law, so you can complain about them again that way.

mysterywhiteboy 13 years ago | | |

Unfortunately there are a number of circumstances where they are within their rights to withhold information. One of these situations is where the information relates to another individual.

If information is withheld she my be able to infer that the offending account to which she is linked is held by someone else - though the identity of the account holder would understandably not be given.

lancewiggs 13 years ago |

I wonder whether this is related to Linn living in Norway, purchasing from Amazon.com and somehow Amazon.co.uk are getting in the middle, perhaps because they run Europe from there.

It's the game that many people play - trying to find the best Amazon (or Apple) store when they live and travel between countries. This means a constant struggle to find a combination of credit card, store with enough content (The US is best) and a local address (virtual and actual) to satisfy arcane internal rules.

Please Amazon - please move to one global store where any credit card from any country can purchase any edition of any book. Please Amazon and Apple, let us combine content from multiple stores into one account, and let us have a global price based on the best market. Yo usell more stuff, we but more as well.

Meanwhile take the chance to collect, and pay to the local authorities, consumption/sales tax based on the location of the IP address, not the credit card or address of the buyer. That way if someone is standing in the UK, buying content from the USA, then they pay UK tax (VAT), making it fairer versus the physical and local virtual alternatives.

oliwarner 13 years ago |

User pays money for something. Company withdraws products without notice and deliberately harms the user's device. Yes this is awful but the solution is as simple as it's always been:

1. Complain. Keep complaining all the way to the top.

2. Sue. If complaining doesn't get you want you've paid for (or your money back, inc the Kindle you now can't use), you've just been robbed and you need to take legal action. You might think you're under a billion and five EULAs but when challenged, courts seem to side with the user when the EULAs attempt to restrict rights that they're not allowed to impinge upon. There are various sales laws that are protected well beyond the words of an EULA.

If you don't do anything about it, you make it worse for everybody else because <<insert horrid company here>> thinks they can get away with it now.

jonno 13 years ago | |

Yep. counter thump your way to the top, then hit whatever small claims will have you. I can't imagine any court will side with a retailer deleting purchases without adequate excuse.

Also, actually writing letters is a great idea, I find it gets much more attention than filling a web form or firing off a hasty email. When you lick that stamp you're showing a company you're willing to put some effort in.

run4yourlives 13 years ago | |

Um: 3. Stop using the service the company provides.

kabdib 13 years ago |

I have a physical library of about 5K books. Should he want to, my son will be able to read those books.

The DRM'd books are a different story. I still want my son to be able to read them, but I have no assurance that the ebooks will be available to him fifteen years from now.

So I yank the DRM from all of my Amazon purchases. These I put on backups. I do not share them.

I would like to see legislation about the ownership of digital content, requiring that purchased content be accessible /at all times/ -- held in escrow, if necessary. Clearly defining a purchase is probably part of this.

lukeschlather 13 years ago | |

Is there support for this kind of legislation?

It seems like a common sense antecedent to the DMCA - if I'm legally prohibited from circumventing DRM, companies should be legally required to provide a means to shift that content to other media - failure to do this on request should void the DMCA's protections against unauthorized copying.

gknoy 13 years ago | | |

I'm sure that any user you asked about it would love that, but support for legislation requires lobbying, and no group of users can match the dollars thrown at congress by media interests who have no such desires.

imgabe 13 years ago | |

I believe that removing copy protection from DVDs for the purposes of making backup copies was found to not be in violation of copyright laws, I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to ebooks.

dendory 13 years ago |

I'm a comic book fan, and a while back I started buying comics digitally from Dark Horse's digital store. Being also a HN reader, I'm very aware of what these companies can do, how accounts are closed without notice, wiping all your previous purchases, etc. So obviously as my spending went up in that one digital store, I became concerned of what could happen, especially reading their FAQ that clearly state all my money gave me nothing other than a right to access their online system. So I did like any good geek and I poked around, used a few web developer tools, and found a way to save those comics to PDF, for backup purposes. Now, whenever I buy a new title, the first thing I do is save it as PDF, before even reading it. So now I'm no longer worried about what this company might do, and I encourage everyone who buys goods digitally to do the same. Of course it sucks that we have to do this, but right now that's the only option. Don't let yourself at the mercy of faceless corporations.

davidw 13 years ago | |

I wonder how difficult it'd be to create an end-user app... User plugs Kindle into the computer, user runs app, app backs up user's books, free from DRM. I guess people could use it to pirate as well, but c'est la vie.

rada 13 years ago | | |

You can download all your Kindle books and store them in a caliber library on your computer: http://calibre-ebook.com/.

pja 13 years ago | | |

It's been done.

DanBC 13 years ago | |

Bypassing a technical copyright protection mechanism is a criminal offence, isn't it?

I agree that it's the sane thing to do. "Back up your documents" is important advice.

tomp 13 years ago | | |

Not in europe. Here, it's fair use.

andrewpi 13 years ago |

Apparently Amazon didn't wipe her Kindle: https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120

mike-cardwell 13 years ago | |

But her account was cancelled and her Kindle is broken, so she can't retrieve any of her books if she gets a new Kindle. Which is practically as bad really.

MattBearman 13 years ago |

I know it's not the best attitude, but if this ever happened to me I would simply pirate all the books I'd purchased from amazon, side load them onto my kindle and keep reading guilt free.

A part of me would like to dump amazon due to stories like this, but at the end of the day the whole set up is just too convenient (I can find, 'buy', and start reading a book in less than a minute directly from my kindle)

The worst part is that attitudes like mine are probably a big part of the reason Amazon will continue to get away with this. The even worse part is that I just don't care enough to do anything about it.

I wonder how many others there are like me who should know better, but enjoy the convenience too much?

MrMember 13 years ago | |

We all make concessions for something (unless you're rms). I refuse to buy DRM laden ebooks, yet I've spent thousands of dollars on Steam games. I don't mind the inconveniences of using paper books but when it comes to PC games Steam is just to convenient for me to ignore. I know I could lose access to hundreds of games suddenly and without warning, yet I continue to give Valve my business.

imgabe 13 years ago | |

I'm in the same boat. My plan is to continue using Amazon, but remove the DRM from everything I buy and keep a backup copy.

nowarninglabel 13 years ago |

I've had some friends caution me over the fact that I have a "license to read" my Amazon purchased books as opposed to "own" them, however that really never hit home until now. I understand this is the way the business model works, but the customer service presented here is terrible, no indication whatsoever as to what the real problem is and no way to find out, which is sad because usually Amazon has pretty good customer service (well in my experience, I've been using Amazon for about a decade now, and customer service sucked until around 2004 or so I think when it seemed to get better).

gknoy 13 years ago | |

The worst part is, that when combating people who really are trying to behave fraudulently, giving them information about what specifically triggered the ban can help them evade future ones -- much like how forum bans don't give a reason why. It must be hard for Amazon (or anyone else) to separate the wheat from the chaff of customers.

Not that this makes the events in this story any less terrible.

pixelcort 13 years ago |

The worst part about this isn't so much the remote wipe of the device, but the eternal banning of the customer without recourse.

It doesn't matter if it's 30 or 50 years from now; this person has been told that for the rest of their life, until they die, that they are never again able to become a customer.

Sounds like a long time to be banned without being told why.

jiggy2011 13 years ago |

So even if we assume that Amazon was correct and that this account was closed because it was linked to another account that was closed because of 'abuse'.

I don't understand how that would justify or require revoking access to stuff that was already bought/licensed? You could simply deny the offending user access to buying new stuff instead.

powertower 13 years ago | |

The "abuse" was probably related to stripping DRM off the titles, and uploading them for anyone to download free-of-charge. Then that would make sense.

donapieppo 13 years ago |

A sentence like "We wish you luck in locating a retailer better able to meet your needs and will not be able to offer any additional insight or action on these matters" is the best explanation of the evil of monopoly.

chris_wot 13 years ago | |

Monopolies tend to die. Sure, there might not be any competition from other companies, but their biggest competition is in the mass distributed and downloaded pirated book market.

As an example, I only buy non-DRM PDFs, but I never distribute them. Ever. And I never will, because those who use non-DRM PDFs get my hard earned money as I will then get to enjoy and profit from their works on any device that I so desire to use.

Now if, for example, I got a DRM encoded book and it was taken away from me due to some ridiculous arbitrary decision, I would be sorely tempted to get a non-DRM encoded copy of the book that I purchased. I think, in fact I know, I would be justified.

But given that I don't buy DRM encoded books, this will never be an ethical dilemna for me. And I'm no dirty hippy :-)

chillax 13 years ago |

Seems the blog is getting hit hard now. Here is the Google Cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.b...

jiggy2011 13 years ago |

Surely this is what a small claims court could be used for?

I haven't read the Amazon TOS but is it really as simple as "you rent this book for as long as we feel like and we can revoke it for no reason"?

In which case I would be somewhat surprised if this really held up in a court, for example what happens if you buy a book and they immediately decide to revoke the license 1 second after purchase?

pja 13 years ago | |

Surely this is what a small claims court could be used for?

In principle, possibly. It's a bit difficult to sue if you live in Norway & have been buying from Amazon US though: your costs will exceed any potential return very quickly!

(I'm assuming that filing a small claims suit remotely is either not possible or not effective here of course.)

SEMW 13 years ago | | |

Nah, you just sue in Norway. Might be expensive for Amazon to defend, but that's their problem.

More specifically: Norway is part of the Brussels regime for determining jurisdiction to sue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime ). So this applies:

A consumer may bring proceedings against the other party to a contract either in the courts of the Contracting State in which that party is domiciled or in the courts of the Contracting State in which he is himself domiciled.

And no, companies can't escape it by putting a jurisdiction clause in a consumer contract. Consumer protection law trump contract terms. If Amazon want to do business in a country, they have to abide by the consumer laws of that country.

(I am not a lawyer).

jiggy2011 13 years ago | | |

That presents a bit of a problem. As digital stuff is being increasingly sold across geopolitical lines you get a situation where you have little practical recourse if you have an issue with anything you have bought.

run4yourlives 13 years ago |

I'm not saying this to be rude, so I apologize in advance if you personally take offence:

In my mind, you're a complete idiot if you are an e-book consumer at this point in time.

You essentially rent the book for a price often higher than owning a physical copy of the exact same material. All this for the slight mobility advantage, and instant purchase ability. You can't share your ebooks with friends. You run the risk that the publisher might decide you're no longer worthy of that purchase.

I question the sanity of any person that has done a pro/con comparison and actually judged e-books to be superior. My guess is that most people don't bother to actually think about these purchases.

e-books can and should be revolutionary, but what is on offer now is essentially nothing more than window dressing - and people are eating it up.

einarfd 13 years ago |

It seems that the Norwegian consumer protection agency have heard about this case and have started looking into it (link in Norwegian http://www.itavisen.no/904648/forbrukerraadet-helt-haarreise... ).

It's going to be interesting to see if they are able to get any traction on this. They actually might since her contact in Amazon seemed to be working for Amazon.co.uk, and Norway is part of the EU's inner market.

SEMW 13 years ago |

> How will she ever find the means to get her books back? By suing a large corporation half-way round the earth?

IANAL. But for anyone in a similar situation, consumer protection law is usually better than you think. Don't assume you can't sue, or have to sue in another country, just because the contract says you do. Consumer protection laws can trump contracts!

In particular, for anyone in EU or EFTA at least (i.e. part of the Brussels regime for determining jurisdiction to sue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime ), who is acting as a consumer, you can sue in your own country: "A consumer may bring proceedings against the other party to a contract either in the courts... in which that party is domiciled or in the courts... in which he is himself domiciled."

If Amazon want to do business in a country, they have to abide by the consumer laws of that country.

I am not a lawyer. Get yourself a lawyer and know your rights!

jnazario 13 years ago |

an increased number of stories like this will make the book pirating underground a lot more attractive to a wider audience. it exists, it's not quite napster-like yet but it's getting there. no DRM, a potentially wider catalog, etc.

this is a risk for publishers and loss-leaders (like amazon) alike.

AngryParsley 13 years ago |

First, it's important to note that we don't have very much information yet. Given what I've read so far, I assume stupidity on the part of Amazon.

Before everyone starts hating on Amazon specifically, remember that this same thing would happen with Apple, Xbox Live, or Barnes & Noble accounts. It's not that all these companies want to have DRM. It's the content owners who dictate the terms of licensing.

mercurial 13 years ago | |

Assuming the story as presented is accurate, it's perfectly legitimate to criticize Amazon's heavy-handedness, arrogance and opacity. AFAIK, the content owners don't mandate specific customer service policies.

rmc 13 years ago | |

I assume stupidity on the part of Amazon.

Oh I'm almost certain that this is stupidity, and not malice. (Why would amazon shut down an account of some regular person?)

However, the big problem is that "all the books you own" should be dependent on a massive company never acting stupid. The problem isn't stupidity/malice, the problem is that stupidity can have such a massive massive effect.

brazzy 13 years ago | | |

Well, the same thing could happen with physical books and a moving company acting stupid - may even be more likely. The difference is that you can sue them for damages in that case

jdbernard 13 years ago | |

Even if Amazon is completely justified in the actions they took, their complete lack of transparency or accountability to the customer is worrying to me.

snitko 13 years ago |

I can absolutely agree that the story is very disturbing, however I also believe that it is an Amazon's right as a private company to do whatever the hell it wants with products an services it provides. The problem is not that it can or cannot legally wipe out the contents of its devices, the problem is that there's not enough competition yet. If Amazon was in a very harsh competition with any another company for ebook market (which I believe it currently isn't) a story like this would undoubtedly drive a substantial amount of customers to competitors. What Amazon currently does, it enjoys a temporary situation in which it is a market leader. Since ebooks is not exactly a very regulated industry, I don't think it's too long before we actually have a serious competition.

cloverich 13 years ago | |

> Since ebooks is not exactly a very regulated industry...

Definitely is a highly regulated (gov't, media co.'s) industry. Without knowing anything else about it - how hard is it to create a web application to serve e-book content? Not very. Yet how many good ones exist? One? Two? That alone should tell you there's a ton of baggage that goes with the market.

bencevans 13 years ago |

If they do that with books, this could happen with AWS?!

Dear Sir/Madam,

We've deleted your EC2, S3... Services and Permanently suspended your AWS account due to it's been linked to another account somewhere on the internet. In other words your companies services/product/startup is offline without notice and we don't care.

dpark 13 years ago | |

Almost certainly. I would be quite shocked if Amazon didn't have the "we can turn you off at any time" clause written into their AWS ToS.

rdl 13 years ago |

I have hundreds of Kindle books, preferentially buy Kindle books, and also have 150+ Audible audiobooks (also owned by Amazon).

I've always been afraid of what might happen to vendor-controlled content (either cloud servers or DRM), so I maintain a local de-DRM'd version of every file. For Audible, I actually had to go through a download, aac playback in iTunes to mp3 compression, mp3 file split workflow to make Audible books work with the RNS-E audio in my audi (it has built-in SD slots to play MP3, but the iPod in interface won't work with Audible due to DRM restrictions in their app).

It's a shame that you have to go through all this trouble just to use things you've legally purchased. It's sort of ok when the system just works (like Steam does now, although it didn't always), but horrible when you don't trust the vendor much and where the software doesn't work very well (EA Origin...).

I don't think I'd buy anything where there wasn't at least a technical workaround to rip to servers and formats under my control.

WA 13 years ago | |

I bought an audiobook via Amazon which was DRM-free. The next audiobook was only available through Audible. So I signed up to give it a try and I have to say that this was the worst buying experience ever.

It starts with the password policy. Passwords require a maximum length(!), which is not only stupid but also a strong indicator that they store the passwords in plaintext (like varchar(16)). I asked them whether they'd do that and they denied, but I don't believe them.

And, well, the whole DRM-nonsense and stupid file formats that don't play on my Android phone without their app. I won't buy via Audible again.

shismijuh 13 years ago |

I own 2 kindles. Got one more for Mum also. I need to get my books out ASAP. Somehow, feel very cheated. Nobody can walk into your house and take away your paperbook. This is theft! And then the arrogance of no explanations.

hobbes 13 years ago | |

You did read the Terms and Conditions before you "bought" the books, didn't you?

If you bought the books, you agreed [in the eyes of the law] to this kind of eventuality..

I'm as guilty of this kind of thing as well. We tend to assume an imaginary T&C that conforms to we think is fair when we buy things online - and we have to learn the hard way that the real T&C's are very much more dubious.

Here's the relevant bit in the T&C's:

"Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times"

"Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement."

The key points is that this is a "license agreement" that grants you rights on the payment of applicable fees.

TL;DR: You don't own any content you licensed to read on your kindle.

josephlord 13 years ago | | |

If you read and actually considered the worst case in every contract/website terms and conditions/software licence that you come across it would probably take about a day a week and you would never actually agree to anything that wasn't a GPL/BSD/MIT... software licence. For one thing most give the party offering the agreement rights to change it which should be an absolute no-way.

For most things such as online purchases I tend to rely on law and reasonableness of people and take the chance without reading expecting the maximum downside to be tens of pounds related to that purchase. I am a little more careful when locked into eco-systems (Kindle/app-stores) but still go a fair bit on taking the risk with the reputation of the provider and the size of the risk and the cost of getting the content another way.

rmc 13 years ago | | |

Laws trump contracts. You cannot sign away what the law says happened. It's just a matter of convincing a judge that you bought the book. They Amazon's T&Cs are irrelevant.

mikecane 13 years ago |

There is new information here:

Rights? You have no right to your eBooks. http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-y...

Edited to add: So this seems to be a case of a used Kindle's UDID being tied to a previously-suspended account and she got caught in the dragnet by buying that device used without knowing of its history. At some point -- if someone can get through to a live human being at Amazon -- this should all be straightened out. This is yet another reason why everyone should be careful buying used electronics with UDIDs (see eBay and Craigslist for all the "clean ESN" mentions for used phones!).

robk 13 years ago |

She should clearly pursue this in small claims court in the UK. She should be able to do this with a foreign address even. Easy and effective. https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online

capisce 13 years ago |

That's very frightening, makes me reconsider buying more e-books from Amazon...

ghshephard 13 years ago | |

It's important to note that you don't actually buy e-books from Amazon, you license the right to read, and when that license is revoked/cancelled, those books are no longer available to you.

Nursie 13 years ago | | |

I wonder if some large organisation (EU?) could force a change in this idea? It does seem like an end-run around so much in the way of consumer rights.

jclos 13 years ago | | |

Makes me wonder. What happens if you just don't connect your kindle to the net? I have a wifi only kindle which I never connect to the internet because I don't have a wifi connection anymore so I usually keep a local repository of my ebooks which I just drop on my kindle when I want to read them. Is the DRM contained in the azw and mobi files eventually going to stop me from opening them unless I connect to a wireless network?

capisce 13 years ago | | |

I guess I never really considered that. Under what terms might that license be revoked/cancelled? It appears Amazon also lets you "rent" e-books for a certain amount of time. I suspect most people would assume that the high cost alternative to "renting" would be "buy to own". Especially considering the fact that the Kindle books typically cost the same (occasionally even a little bit more) than the physical books.

rmc 13 years ago | | |

Well that depends. If a court decides that you own files you purchase online like this, then you own it.

scotty79 13 years ago |

I have a Kindle but I don't want to have to do with Amazon. What is the best open firmware so far I can flash into it?

I'd like to retain ability to send documents from my computer to my Kindle over the internet.

rmc 13 years ago | |

I have a Kindle and never read nor use any DRM books. You don't need to use Amazon's software or service or anything. You can convert files into .mobi format using open source tools and use a programme like Calibre or just put the files in the "documents" folder of the Kindle to load them.

Using a Kindle without DRM is very possible.

If you turn off wireless, then it will never try to do any software updating.

gioele 13 years ago | | |

What is the point of buying a Kindle then? You could have bought one of the many ebook readers available out there. What about a Kobo? Or a stylish Sony PRS? A small Booken? A feature-packed Onyx? An hackable iRiver Story?

Why giving money to Amazon in the first place if you do not agree with their core business practice?

fab13n 13 years ago | |

I keep buying from Amazon, but I compulsively save a DRM-stripped version of every book I buy. If at any point it became impossible to do so, I'd switch to another book provider, be it the pirate bay if necessary.

It's a necessity, not only for ideological reasons, nor only to protect myself against such abuse from Amazon: it keeps me able to move my virtual library to another platform, should I want to.

shrikant 13 years ago | |

I have a Kindle (wi-fi, w/ keyboard so 3rd gen, I think) for a little over two years, read tons on it, use the wireless delivery for Instapaper and such-like and have never bought an e-book from Amazon.

Managing side-loaded content is quite simple with Calibre, but if you don't want to muck around too much with software, you can also just drag and drop books onto the Kindle as a mass storage device (but you would have to take care that they're in 'acceptable' formats..)

What else are you trying to do that would require custom firmware?

scotty79 13 years ago | | |

My usage of kindle is similar to yours.

I just don't like the possibility of being locked out of the own device.

I also like how the publicly developed software improves over time. I haven't seen any improvements for my Kindle (most likely same model as yours, but gsm) from Amazon.

DiabloD3 13 years ago |

This is why you should use a DRM removal tool and use a third party e-book reader on an Android tablet.

AlisdairO 13 years ago | |

I remove DRM from every ebook I buy. I don't redistribute, but I refuse to be put in a situation like the one linked.

buro9 13 years ago | |

Is there a DRM removal tool that works on Kindle books?

I have a lot of unread Kindle books (I buy a lot at once), and would now like enough of a backup in a form that I could use such that I can be sure I could at least read the books.

rane 13 years ago | | |

Yes, easiest way to go around it is using the DeDRM plugin with Calibre.

http://apprenticealf.wordpress.com/2012/09/10/drm-removal-to...

http://www.cultofmac.com/173945/how-to-read-kindle-books-in-...

thedrbrian 13 years ago | |

What's wrong with a drm removal tool and iBooks?

thristian 13 years ago | | |

Replacing Amazon as gatekeeper with Apple is something of a frying-pan-to-fire move. Amazon's device really only does e-books; most people depend on Apple devices for an awful lot more, and consequently losing access to your Apple device would be vastly more painful.

rmc 13 years ago |

Should have pirated. You get a better product.

Arjuna 13 years ago |

I am curious: could a story like this happen in the United States?

According to my reading of the legal case (I am not a lawyer, but it would be interesting if any of you are could comment - grellas, perhaps) regarding Amazon's remote deletion of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm, the settlement involving that case appears to protect what happened in this story from happening to users in the United States.

Of course, it goes without saying that I do not agree with how things went down in this story, where a person has absolutely no recourse with Amazon, with the proverbial door completely shut in their face. However, I find it interesting that, again, according to my interpretation of the aforementioned settlement, it appears that Kindle units that are purchased and used in the United States are afforded special protections by law from what specifically happened in the story (i.e., the settlement outlines very specific cases where remote deletion can occur, but they do not appear to apply with regard to what happened in the story).

Is my reading of this correct? If so, why aren't all Kindle owners afforded this protection?

Here is the citation from the settlement [1]:

"For copies of Works purchased pursuant to TOS granting "the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy" of each purchased Work and to "view, use and display [such Works] an unlimited number of times, solely on the [Devices] . . . and solely for [the purchasers'] personal, non-commercial use," Amazon will not remotely delete or modify such Works from Devices purchased and being used in the United States unless

(a) the user consents to such deletion or modification;

(b) the user requests a refund for the Work or otherwise fails to pay for the Work (e.g., if a credit or debit card issuer declines to remit payment);

(d) deletion or modification is reasonably necessary to protect the consumer or the operation of a Device or network through which the Device communicates (e.g., to remove harmful code embedded within a copy of a Work downloaded to a Device).

This paragraph does not apply to

(a) applications (whether developed or offered by Amazon or by third parties), software or other code;

(b) transient content such as blogs; or

(c) content that the publisher intends to be updated and replaced with newer content as newer content becomes available. With respect to newspaper and magazine subscriptions, nothing in this paragraph prohibits the current operational practice pursuant to which older issues are automatically deleted from the Device to make room for newer issues, absent affirmative action by the Device user to save older issues."

[1] http://assets.bizjournals.com/cms_media/pdf/KindleCase1.pdf?...

akavlie 13 years ago |

Something very similar happened to my seller account late last year. The emails were very similar -- including the cause for the closure (alleged linkage to a previously closed account). Story here:

http://aaron.kavlie.net/2011/12/web/amazon-com-just-closed-m...

My story got to the top spot on Hacker News and, thanks to the exposure there, Amazon reversed its decision. At no point did I get anything that looked like a personalized response -- just terse form emails that didn't divulge any details.

What surprises me the most about this story is that they use the same approach with the consumer end of the business. I figured that the ham-handed treatment I got was due to Amazon's lack of care for that particular piece of their business, and that any issue with buyers would be taken up with more personal attention, and provide ample opportunity for appeal. Guess I was wrong.

sami36 13 years ago |

Am I the only one thinking there is more to this story than what has been leaked so far ? I don't usually step up to the defense of corporate America but in my dealings with Amazon, I haven't encountered anything but stellar customer service. I hope Amazon releases more about the specifics that led them to take such a draconian action. This is either a terrible mistake that'll come with profuse apology & additional scrutiny at their (maybe trigger happy) fraud processes....or a last ditch action to deal with a serious violation. Either way, this will need to be explained, for now conclusions are being drawn on the basis of nothing but speculation.

conradfr 13 years ago |

Is a Kindle usable without an Amazon account ?

merijnv 13 years ago | |

I use my DX exclusively for reading scientific papers and stuff from Project Gutenberg, I just connect it over USB and copy PDFs/epubs/txt/html on there and everything works just fine.

So yes, it works just fine without an Amazon account. Granted I bought mine without any expectation to buy ebooks, so I can imagine this being unsatisfying for people the expect to actually purchase DRM books...

savramescu 13 years ago | |

Very much so. Just use Calibre to load books and your fine.

pi18n 13 years ago | | |

I used to have Calibre, but decided not to install it on my latest system, due to this bug and the cavalier reaction to it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027

glogla 13 years ago | | |

I'm not sure how it works now, but older Kindles were just mass storage devices so you could put books there by hand.

Nursie 13 years ago | |

There are other ways to load books on to a kindle (Calibre, IIRC, is a piece of software that can do this). This allows you to load epubs and other files.

I believe there are legal (non-pirate) ways to buy these, but I've really no idea how good the vendors are or how wide the catalogues are.

curiousdannii 13 years ago | |

Definitely. The Kindle will appear as any USB drive does, and you can just copy your files to it.

bborud 13 years ago |

What did we expect?

When everything works we all ooh and aah over how great Kindle and a thousand other things like it are. When someone tries to bring a more expensive product to market we scoff and criticize and shake our heads.

Well kids, "cheap" has its price, and the price is shitty, impersonal, bullshit customer service. Amazon has been great at customer service for many years in their physical goods-business, but to push cost down for electronic services, this is what you have to expect.

In the future things will be cheap and human interaction will be at a premium.

asgeirn 13 years ago |

The worst part is the blatant arrogance of Mr. Michael Murphy, who does not at all consider the possibility of it all being a misunderstanding or some error on Amazon's behalf, and giving the customer no option to rectify the issue.

These are two options for who Michael Murphy is:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/17/b72/231

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/0/b84/9b5

vilya 13 years ago | |

"Michael Murphy" may actually be a fictional identity though. Companies sometimes do that to give people the feeling of dealing with a real person while in reality it's just whoever is free in the department that deals with it. Certainly if my job was to tell people that we weren't giving them their account of any of their purchases back, I wouldn't want them to have any of my personal details.

mercurial 13 years ago | |

I don't think posting his personal details on the Internet is a very good idea.

Drakim 13 years ago | | |

Michael Murphy posted his personal details on the Internet. asgeirn posted links.

hef19898 13 years ago | | |

Funny, since it is a link to linkedin... :-)

arandomJohn 13 years ago |

First a disclaimer: I think this is outrageous and hope that her account is restored.

Now my questions:

Does her account use her home address? That seems unlikely as she is in Norway but is dealing with Amazon US. What are the rules for purchasing content when you're not resident? Could this be the problem? If so that sucks.

Secondly, it appears that she began her Kindle odyssey with a used Kindle. Could that be what links her account to a fraudulent one? A unique ID from one of her devices has been used by someone else in the past?

adrianscott 13 years ago |

Am I the only one who will take Amazon's action and level of customer service into consideration when deciding on a cloud hosting provider, Amazon Web Services vs. others?

Accounts are accounts on Amazon and will they link a consumer account you or your developers use with an account you use for hosting business web sites on EC2?

Or, reading the blog entry, will they mistakenly link another account with your other Amazon accounts, including the one you use for EC2?...

mark_l_watson 13 years ago |

I have sympathy for the lady (and others) who lost their Kindle books.

However, I am going to take the opposition view here because I feel like people don't understand 'the beast' also known as Amazon.

Amazon optimizes on low margins, and cheap prices for goods (both physical and electronic). Amazon optimizes on the benefit to the mass majority of their customers at the expense of a small minority who do occasionally get "thrown under the bus."

I buy lots of Kindle books, but there are a few things I do to mitigate risk. First, for technical books I try to buy from publishers who have daily 30% to 50% off sales where I get PDF, a MOBI (Kindle format), and a iPub files. Secondly, I buy a physical book if I think that a book will have long term value (for example, I would read it several times during a financial meltdown when electricity is scarce, and we spend most of our time grubbing around for food - this has happened in Argentina, Russia, Iraq, etc., and it may well happen sometime in the USA). Thirdly, I buy "good deals" on the Kindle; for example, I am reading James Joyce's "Ulysses" right now and I only paid about $2 for it - a great bargain.

nasmorn 13 years ago | |

You do know Ulysses is out of Copyright? You paid 2$ for the convenience of not using project gutenbergs version.

qw 13 years ago |

Looks like the database is down. Here's the cached version:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&outpu...

chris_wot 13 years ago |

Interesting link to an Amazon.com Kindle Help discussion by the blog author:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=...

alan_cx 13 years ago | |

Blimey, Amazon also has "fanboys". I suppose its logical.

chris_wot 13 years ago | | |

Fanboys and logical are not two words that you often see together in an argument.

miles 13 years ago |

Update: Simon Phipp sez, "Kindlegate update: Linn says her account was mysteriously re-activated after my article published."

via http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...

brokentone 13 years ago |

Whether the story is completely true, whether it has another side, or if it's a complete farce, we understand this situation could happen under the agreements we make to Amazon and just about every other digital services provider (yes, we've jumped from goods to services). When we understand that, don't take action, and continue purchasing from any of the companies that legalese themselves onto a fortified high ground that disadvantages consumers to this degree, we're part of the problem.

The very fact this story is this popular is because we all understand it could happen to us, think that by upvoting it, commenting on it, and sharing it, we're making a difference, but then we go right back to Amazon and purchase more things. Perpetuating the cycle.

guiambros 13 years ago |

Update: seems her access was just reinstated. No further comments from Amazon, but their PR team did clarify that account status has nothing to do with access to your book's library" -- this is positive news, but still need further clarification. How can I download my books without my account?

"We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help. Thank you for your interest in Kindle."

http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...

frownie 13 years ago |

Damn you all, you're so naive...

1/ Amazon is a private company. 2/ You don't buy books from them, you buy a license to read them.

So by buying a book, you agree with their power. If you don't like to be in such control, then please, apply one of the start up credo : find a better competitor.

But don't complain, please.

(and the same goes with Apple who surely has some super control on your phone, and don't complain about FaceBook when they'll kill your account when you don't behave.)

Welcome to the privacy nightmare you all voted for by buying their shiny stuff.

Another option is : court ! Hey but you don't have enough money ? Hey, but that's what happens when you deal alone with a megacorp : you're just a small insect.

Funny people often forget that...

stF

antihero 13 years ago |

A random idea but perhaps she logged in with her account onto a public computer that had been used by someone for fraud? I don't know, she should use EU law against Amazon - it should apply as they're operating in the EU.

gliese1337 13 years ago |

This is why I will not buy proprietary readers like Kindle, nor access to any digital media for which I do not get my very own copy of a file I can back up on my very own hard-drives. The story doesn't particularly make me hate Amazon- it's just one anecdote, and I've had great experiences with Amazon customer service myself- but it shows what can be done. No matter how much I might like Amazon's other services, I will never trust any company not to do anything that they are technically capable of doing. To keep them from screwing you over, don't give them the power to do so.

engtech 13 years ago |

Here's a fun game to illustrate why we should be interested in protecting consumer rights to maintain their own libraries of digital goods.

Go back through the New York Time Best Seller list in 5 year increments, and see at what point you start reaching books you've never heard of and that are no longer in print.

It's pretty revealing that except for novels that are in school curriculum or transferred to another medium (book, TV) the majority of best sellers are only relevant for 15-20 years.

If you're in your late 30s or old, try to find a new copy of some favourite novels from your adolescence. Good luck.

jordanthoms 13 years ago |

If she has made any recent purchases, doing a chargeback would be an option.

clumsysmurf 13 years ago |

I was recently interested in purchasing eBooks from Morgan Kaufmann. "The UX Book: Process and Guidelines for Ensuring a Quality User Experience" costs $89.95 USD; surely for that insane price your eBook would be DRM-free, right? Wrong. Both ePub and PDF use Adobe Adept (Inept) DRM.

You can try to find the Kindle/iBook version, but as this article points out "its a license to read" ... and very often, the quality of the digital conversion is very poor, especially for literature with illustrations.

DRM-free PDF is the only way for me.

Antiks72 13 years ago | |

Ink and paper is the only way for me.

sbochins 13 years ago |

I don't think I'll ever buy into a closed system like Amazon ebooks. Seems like you can have so much eggs in one basket and they can just smash your eggs w/o giving any reason. I don't read a lot of books for my free time. I have a safari books account at work that I use a lot. It is nice since it is kind of like Netflix. It's just a subscription, so they can't pull anything crazy like Amazon is doing here. I also like the feel of actual books, and they are nice decorations in your house.

NaturalDoc 13 years ago |

Its real simple folks. Refuse to do business with Amazon or any affiliates (sites hosted with AWS, amazon affiliates). It was once said if you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem. The solution is to make Amazon feel your displeasure in their bottom line.

It is pathetic what we have allowed corporations to do to us when we are the one's providing them the power to do it. Maybe we, as a society, have just become too lazy and complacent to worry about being trampled on?

damon 13 years ago |

It would be interesting to hear Amazon's side of the story. It just doesn't seem like something any digital retailer would do.

Assuming Lynn did no wrong and this is entirely a fraud algorithm problem on Amazon's side, you would think there is a higher authority within Amazon to dispute the problem. It's a shame they they didn't offer her anything in terms of dispute resolution or fraud prevention.

I'm going to email Amazon's feedback link as chanux did, I hope the larger HN community does the same.

chanux 13 years ago |

This sounds disturbing to me since I too live far away from Amazon's jurisdiction and I clearly know I would be even more helpless in a case like this.

Amazon's service was so sweet I didn't mind the DRM, the metaphorical diabetes. It seems now is the time to open my eyes and (again) realize 'RMS is always right'. I think I will stop buying any amazon e-book at least until I hear something good regarding this issue.

pleskon 13 years ago |

> The fact that Amazon can do this is

It is detailed in the contract few people bother to read prior to signing!

> The problem? Microsoft has your operating system,

> Google has your email, eBay has your stuff, PayPal

> has your money, Amazon has your books, Facebook has

> your social life, etc.

The problem is YOU GAVE each of those entities information out of hand with misplaced trust.

> We need to push for a universal option for arbitration

Push for less inane contractual terms first. Then change the cultural ethos of wrong-tolerance.

tobyjsullivan 13 years ago |

Regarding the policy violation, is it possible the problem was the fact she lived in Norway and was using amazon.com?

My experience, as a Canadian, is that Amazon encourages use of amazon.ca (your local version of their site) and you have to go through some tricks to use Amazon.com.

Many of my friends did because that was the only way to get a kindle and books for years. Are they all at risk of this?

e12e 13 years ago |

FWIW, I'm from Norway, and this story seems legit - although it hasn't (yet) blown up in dead tree media over here. I think it just might.

On a related note (unfortunately not an alternative to everything Amazon offers):

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/07/torforge-e-books-are-now-dr...

e12e 13 years ago | |

http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&j...

A comment from the Norwegian Government's "Consumer Council" - charged with protecting (private) consumer rights.

tsotha 13 years ago |

I would think this is actionable in the US. Her being in Norway complicates things.

I've spent more than $1k on ebooks for my kindle. If Amazon did this to me they'd definitely have a lawsuit on their hands. Not because I would win in court, but because I could use it as a springboard to do millions of dollars in damage to their reputation.

njharman 13 years ago |

> get her books back?

They aren't her books, they aren't even books in the physical sense. They are the copyright owner's "books". All she had (and paid for) were licenses to display (in limited fashion) "books".

Linn might not like this, she should fight (infinite, broad) copyright which is the root of all this evil, not Amazon.

Karunamon 13 years ago |

I understand the fear expressed here by a number of people that this might happen to them, but honestly? I think the answer here is pretty mundane and deserves a bit of perspective.

Some low level intern screwed up somewhere. While that hardly excuses Amazon for their exceptionally horrendous CS in this case (usually they're know for being good on that front), ask yourself:

  * How many customers does Amazon have?
  * How many instances of this have ever happened?
  * How likely is it to happen again?

The answers there are "a hell of a lot" (>100M), not many, and not very.

One cockup with one customer hasn't shaken my faith in Amazon's ecosystem. They're going to have to try a lot harder in order to achieve that goal.

Look at another platform like Steam. I'd say they have even more issues because they'll actually dismiss people from the service for things like card chargebacks or restrict multiplayer account-wide in case of cheating. They've had errors too. They're rare and statistically insignificant, just like in this case.

And for the love of god if you're going to downvote me, please at least bother to explain why so we can all learn something.

SeanDav 13 years ago |

Which is why I never purchase DRM goods if I can possibly avoid it. Support vendors that don't have DRM.

FiloSottile 13 years ago |

I hate when retailers make piracy tools necessary even if you paid. Head to the Apprentice Alf's Blog.

gbeeson 13 years ago |

This entire situation is the foundation of my reluctance to completely shift to 'online media'. I have always understood that I would be leasing the media and that it could be terminated for cause just as the article related. Rough stuff.

realrocker 13 years ago |

I am really infuriated by this. It's high time one of us build's Kindle's competition. DRM "must" not be handled by the store. If DRM has to exist, it should be the prerogative of the author not the store owner. What the hell man!!

antihero 13 years ago |

This is theft. Yet if someone were to get caught shoplifting, they'd face jailtime.

DenisM 13 years ago |

Apparently, Amazon did not delete the books from her Kindle. See the twit:

http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...

isharabash 13 years ago |

We're only hearing one side, has anyone else questioned how true this story is?

lwat 13 years ago | |

We're only hearing one side because Amazon refuses to say anything.

rawoke 13 years ago |

This sucks big time !! I'd be so pissed if this was me !

I've mailed amazon to hear if this is the norm.

I don't really expect a response, but hopefully a few 1000's emails like that will at least let them give the situation more attention ?

Nursie 13 years ago |

It's almost as if they want to drive people to alernate ways of acquiring content...

I still read a mix of kindle stuff and paper books, but the kindle is invaluable for travelling light. This is disappointing to hear about.

Tooluka 13 years ago |

Never ever buy e-books from Amazon, only physical books and things. Especially because all e-stuff on your Amazon account can be permanently deleted without any option to restore (except to buy it again).

epaga 13 years ago |

Just had the following support chat with an Amazon rep:

Me:I have really enjoyed Kindle on multiple devices so far but I just read the following account of a different Kinde customer and am appalled at Amazon's treatment of this individual: http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/ Is it really true that at any moment, Amazon could delete all my books and not tell me the reason? If so, I strongly request that Amazon revisit its DRM rules & regulations. Thanks! Hi Elakkiya!

Elakkiya:Hello, I'm Elakkiya from Amazon Kindle support.I'll be happy to help you today

Me:awesome Basically it comes down to these terms cited by Amazon Exec Michael Murphy in his letter: "Per our Conditions of Use which state in part: Amazon.co.uk and its affiliates reserve the right to refuse service, terminate accounts, remove or edit content, or cancel orders at their sole discretion." Is this true? Without needing to cite any reasons whatsoever, is Amazon able to delete all my books?

Elakkiya:I'm sorry for the inconvenience you had about this. May I place you on hold for 1 to 2 minutes while I check this for you?

Me:Sure No inconvenience so far for ME just for the person in that article so I'm asking if it is factually correct

Elakkiya:Thanks for waiting.

Me:sure

Elakkiya:It seems there was some problem with the account. This is the reason for the account closure.

Me:obviously. :) the appalling thing is that amazon doesn't want to tell her what problem so my question is: does Amazon not NEED to tell its customers which problem an account has before closing it? obviously amazon needs to have the right to close accounts but i'd say in those cases it also has the responsibility to state why more than a hand-wavy "there were problems"

Elakkiya:May I place you on hold for 1 to 2 minutes while I check this for you?

Me:sure

Elakkiya:Thanks for waiting.

Me:sure

Elakkiya:On further going through this issue, I see that I need to transfer your concern to the appropriate department who handle these kind of issues.

Me:ok please do that. will they respond via email then?

Elakkiya:Yes, you should hear back from them in the next 1-2 business days.

Me:great. i assume you have my email since i'm logged in, right?

Elakkiya:Yes,John.

Me:Thanks, Elakkiya. Have a great day!

Elakkiya:You're welcome. Thank you for visiting Amazon.com. We look forward to seeing you again soon.

tux1968 13 years ago |

We simply must stop signing all power over to corporations in exchange for use of their toys. Until people start voting with their wallet, these types of things will only become more common.

wolfhumble 13 years ago |

Seems like her account has been opened up again for some reason . . . http://goo.gl/MZVzZ (Norwegian website digi.no via google translate)

frobozz 13 years ago |

IANAL, but I believe that the Personopplysningsloven is compliant with Directive 95/46/EC; of which Article 12 has provisions against the behaviour exhibited by Amazon in this exchange.

crististm 13 years ago |

Actually, DRM at its finest. Until enough people get screwed by DRM, the R from DRM will come from Rights instead of Restrictions.

Unfortunately, I see no shortage for stories like this in the future.

jonno 13 years ago |

I've been on the fence about Kindles for me and the kids. Think this has tipped the balance. I had heard rumors about how draconian Amazon was being, seems it was true.

russelluresti 13 years ago |

This is why it's extremely important to use programs like Calibre to back up all your Amazon or Nook or whatever else purchases.

davidw 13 years ago |

I wonder how much this is going to cost them in lost sales.

If everything is as stated - I have no reason to doubt it - it's very disappointing.

lollancf37 13 years ago |

Well my Kindle 3G doesn't work anymore, I was planning on buying the new one... Now I know I won't. Thanks for the reminder

donniezazen 13 years ago |

Stallman becomes more relevant everyday.

olalonde 13 years ago |

This guy sounds like a total jerk. Reminds me of some exchanges I had with Paypal's customer support.

jamesaguilar 13 years ago |

Oof. That would be horrible. I need to crack the DRM on my books and move them to a safe place ASAP.

shmerl 13 years ago |

Breaking DRM and making personal backups should be the first step for those who use such services.

noonespecial 13 years ago |

So now corporations also have no-fly lists? Fantastic.

jksmith 13 years ago |

Need something that hacks Amazon's control of Kindles.

amalag 13 years ago |

Another reason to buy a Kobo instead of a kindle.

atas 13 years ago |

That's why we still need local storage.

cagenut 13 years ago |

This is even more scary for people/startups with their entire business on ec2.

lucian303 13 years ago |

Well, that's the last time I buy a kindle or any books from Amazon. ePub and other non-DRM formats exist. Luckily, I have only bough a few books so far that were not free.

Of course, for the ones willing to search, the truth is out there ... but the truth is copyrighted. That's what they forgot to mention in the X-Files.

celticbadboy 13 years ago |

This is something that's always in the back of mind.

Yes the Kindle is awesome, but how hard is it for a bookstore to come to your house and repossess a book?

js951534 13 years ago |

Pfft only more reason to use "free" websites for ebook downloads such as coinread.com

aw3c2 13 years ago | |

Warning: Neither legalreads.com nor coinread.com are legal free ebook sources, they are standard search engines for illegitimate downloads. js951534 repeatedly links to these sites.

andyjohnson0 13 years ago | |

Its a pity that legalreads doesn't provide a way for me to see what they offer without first giving them access to my google account.

js951534 13 years ago | | |

See the search bar at top of page that says "Search Books" thats a sample of the underlying database, you dont need to login to download books from this site, tho loging in gives more choice, use a disposable account anyways not your primary its a good security precaution anyways

ljf 13 years ago | |

I just checked legalreads and it seems the site has now been closed.

js951534 13 years ago | | |

try coinread.com then or any of the sites linked to on legalreads.com frontpage