Show HN: Holy Mess – Israeli–Palestinian conflict from an atheist angle

Show HN: Holy Mess – Israeli–Palestinian conflict from an atheist angle(amircanaan.com)

3 points by whyage 116 days ago | 25 comments

Hi HN — This book is free to read or listen. I’m genuinely interested in critique on this attempt to analyze the Israeli–Palestinian conflict through an atheist lens. If you’re familiar with the region or with how ideology and identity shape long-running conflicts, I’d love your toughest feedback.

throw310822 116 days ago |

I find the religious side as naive as it is pointless. Of course there are two populations that differ in religion and ethnicity- although Judaism is a culture as well as a religion, Jews are at the same time an ethno-religious group, accepting almost no converts, and mix of multiple ethnicities bound by a common cultural heritage. Many (Israeli) Jews are atheists. On the other hand, Palestinians include also a Christian minority and even large familial tribes of well-known Jewish origin. But let’s clear the field from confounding factors. Someone comes to your home, chases you out and claims it exclusively for himself and his family. This is what happened, metaphorically with the whole land, and literally with Palestinians’ homes. The religious factor here is secondary- there is a nationalistic factor at play, a tribal factor, where one group invades some land (to which it claims a tenuous historical/ religious connection) and chases out its current inhabitants to have complete control over it.

How do we explain the ongoing conflict? First of all, as I’ve just shown, it’s all very simple: western immigrants come to a foreign land and decide to take it for themselves and those who they deem to belong their group (which they also decide it includes middle-eastern Jews, which they call in from yet other countries). Violent reaction ensues, but the superior forces of the colonisers, backed by western powers, is overwhelming. Every outburst of violence provides the excuse for new land grabs, so the violent resistance of the colonised becomes the necessary fuel for further colonisation. Provocations need to be kept at the right level.

Israel is a small country, in good part arid or desert. Every few sq. kms of expansion do provide substantial increase in the total land available. Just think of the real estate value of square kilometres of land becoming open for development in such a small country. Imagine the real estate value of 40 kms of mediterranean coastline. Not to mention the natural resources, the gas fields outside the coast that fall in part into Palestinian borders. The reason for fuelling the tensions that provide the excuses for more land grab is obvious.

As for the price of this constant tension and the terrorism, nations have sent entire generations to die for much less. The price that Israel is paying for what it’s getting, for what it will eventually get, is frankly a bargain one. A good part of its military is subsidised by the US anyway.

Ok, then what’s the way out? The simplest one. Just. Set. A. Fucking. Border. Forever. The 1967 border. Make sure Israel understands that the border will never change and that anything that is built or brought beyond that border is on foreign land and will be given to Palestinians. Sanction every violation, shoot on any vehicle that crosses the border without authorisation in either direction. Give money to Palestinians to rebuild and organise their own country. Make sure both Palestinians and Israelis feel safe inside their respective borders. End of the story. With safety and the end of the occupation hatred and fanaticism will eventually subside.

The astute reader might ask: if it’s so simple, why nobody proposes it? Then please re-read paragraph 3.

mhb 115 days ago | |

> if it’s so simple, why nobody proposes it? please re-read paragraph 3

Please re-read Hamas's charter.

throw310822 114 days ago | | |

I know I shouldn't, but let's try to have a dialogue. Do you think that if Hamas disappeared and Palestinians became friendly and peaceful, Israel would forever stop expanding its colonies? Can you answer succinctly with a yes or a no avoiding introducing new elements, if possible?

skissane 115 days ago | |

> accepting almost no converts

This isn't true. Most Jewish communities do accept converts (the Syrians Jews are a notable exception). They don't make it as easy as Christians or Muslims do, but I'm not aware of any cases of someone who was seriously committed and motivated and willing to give the process time being rejected – and if that ever happened, they could surely find some other Rabbi willing to give them a different answer. I think the bigger reason why relatively few people convert is relatively few people are drawn to it.

Well-known converts to Judaism include Sammy Davis Jr, Elizabeth Taylor, Zooey Deschanel, Isla Fisher, Walter Kaufmann (the Nietzsche scholar), Ivanka Trump.

And Israel accepts converts for immigration under the Law of Return. The rapper Nissim Black converted to Orthodox Judaism, joined the Breslov Hasidim, made aliyah and now lives in Jerusalem. Due to a Supreme Court of Israel ruling, it also accepts converts to non-Orthodox Judaism (such as Conservative and Reform), even though Israel does not legally consider them Jewish for purposes of family law; but not converts to groups whose claims to Jewish identity are not generally recognised, such as the Christian-derived "Messianic Judaism", or Black Hebrew Israelite groups. (Some of the latter of which have been allowed to settle in Israel, but not under the Law of Return, under an ad hoc arrangement.)

throw310822 115 days ago | | |

> not aware of any cases of someone who was seriously committed and motivated and willing to give the process time being rejected

Making it possible but requiring really strong motivation and time is a good way to discourage it. Facts speak by themselves: Jews are an ethnoreligious group, not a religion (you can be Jewish and atheist); they claim a genetic continuity with the Jews of the ancient Israel. This requires a mostly closed community that doesn't easily include converts, though a path exists. The few examples that you cite are exactly this: a few examples.

alighter 116 days ago | |

In your vision, can Jews live on the other side of the border?

throw310822 115 days ago | | |

As long as they accept to live under a Palestinian state. (Normally immigration should have a path to citizenship and voting rights, but both Israel and Palestine would want to preserve the national nature of their states, as Israel already does).