How to talk to anyone and why you should(theguardian.com) |
How to talk to anyone and why you should(theguardian.com) |
If after reading it you decide it’s not for you then that’s fine, it is as they say bean soup.
They don’t. If they did they wouldn’t have an issue striking up a conversation with strangers, but they clearly do.
> I have not read the article and never am going to.
If you don’t know what it says, it might be wise to not be negative about it.
> I do not, ever, want to talk you as a standard and you should never force that to me.
The article isn’t suggesting anyone force anything. Quite the contrary, it advocates for respecting boundaries and even suggests how to communicate your own.
His anger brewed for a few minutes and he decided he wanted to fight me, so he menacingly stood up. I remained seated and told him to sit down. He ended up grabbing me by the throat, while no-one around did a thing to stop him.
It’s made me think twice about interacting with random people, tits or no tits. But I doubt I’ll learn anything from it and continue with reckless abandon, because life is mundane otherwise.
Despite illusions and every misguided attempt, when in public, you’re not actually in an impenetrable little bubble. And when your bubble bursts, you can laugh, or get angry. I recommend choosing laughter because it’s easier on the eyes.
I'm glad for people who don't struggle with this, I just wish they would be more empathetic.
I wonder if anyone who did this had to start from a baseline of feeling this is straight up weird (I'm pretty sure it is weird in my culture).
Most random encounters have a pretext, from smoking a cigarette to talking to the shopkeeper, or being in a queue for a long time.
Talking to a woman ( esp given that many of them are harassed from what I understand from my female friends ) without any reason to is much harder
I was someone who was raised home schooled and it really altered my ability to communicate with my peers, which was something I had to really work on later in life. It surprises most people who know me when I tell them this, as I'm a pretty outgoing / gregarious person these days. It was a deliberate choice on my part, and I likely overindexed on it, leading to me now being highly social.
For those looking to do the same, I'll offer my own advice: how you engage socially depends on how large the audience is.
Small audiences (1-2 people):
If you don't know them: your goal should be to get them to smile without feeling threatened. A lot of people fail at that last part. Don't give someone a compliment like, "I like your pants" out of the blue - it may threaten them that you have alterior motives ("Are they attracted to me?", "Do they just like how my butt looks in these pants?"). Reframe compliments in a way that isn't threatening - ask them something instead like, "Hey weird question, but can I ask what brand those pants are? I want to get my sibling a birthday present and I think they'd really like those". It shows you see them as positive without it being a threatening interaction.
If you do know them: your goal should be to be interested in what they are saying. Find the topic that will stimulate your mind / get you excited to hear them talk more about it. Don't just gamify it and try to get them to talk more than you talk; that's an easy way to make yourself not look genuine. Dig and find gold - everyone has somethinig cool to say, it's your job to find that.
Medium audiences (3-8 people):
Be the facilitator. Don't butt in to get your own voice heard, butt in to segue to others who haven't had their voice heard. "Omg thats crazy X, hey Y you recently had something similar happen right?". Keep the flow going. Your goal should be to make everyone else feel like they've found gold in the conversation with new and interesting nuggest on a regular basis.
Large audiences (9-30 people):
These are basically meetings, and are the worst possible social interaction. Your goal should be to make these as smooth as possible and end them quickly so you can break to smaller sizes. Present facts clearly without emotion, keep things on topic so you can move past them.
Presentations (30+ people):
With this size you do the reverse of the prior size - the facts don't matter at all. Your goal should be to present emotions, not facts. Don't tell people what the % YoY growth is. Control how they should feel about the % YoY growth. This is the biggest #1 failure I see from inexperienced presenters - they aim to just present the info. People can read the info later - convey to them the emotion they should take away from the data. On every slide you have you should have a goal emotion, and you should reflect that emotion in your presentation. Look at any great presenter and you'll notice the same - they have the audience's emotions in their hands.
The non-verbal cues are wher things get difficult.
TLDR: Small talk seems to be of trivial importance and to require minimal effort. Neither of this is true. Therefore, there is no shame in cultivating one's smalltalk muscle and being more prepared for it
Do I lean over and say, "Hi, how are you guys doing? Really good coffee they have here, huh?"
I'm at the gym. It's a big-box gym. It's full of dudes wearing Airpods Max, a few couples in skintight athletic outfits, a few teens with phones on tripods filming themselves for Tiktok.
Do I come over, gesture for them to take off their headphones, and say, "Hi, how are you guys doing? That's really good form, on that lift, really good form. Keep it up!"
I'm waiting to cross a road. On the other side of the road is a Caltrain crossing. The traffic light cycle takes forever, and then the train comes and preempts it. And then preempts it again when people finish getting on. A crowd of parents with strollers are waiting to cross. People are returning from the farmer's market with bags of vegetables. People on bikes.
Do I lean over and say, "Hey, how are you guys all doing? It sure takes a while to cross. Wow!"
It gives me anxiety lmao you will have better time with hobbies.
However, I guess it depends on the goal? Like in medium audiences, WHY be the facilitator for others? I mean it's a good thing to do if there's such a person or maybe if you're the host, etc. But in my opinion in most cases the point is to contribute to the conversation.
For large/presentations- fact versus emotion thing seems arbitrary. In most "social" situations emotions triumph regardless of size. But again there are factors other than size that would factor more into this. I don't disagree with anything- more like all of it could go either way and it's fine.
> He ended up grabbing me by the throat, while no-one around did a thing to stop him.
The bystander effect is real, but you should also take this opportunity for self-reflection, because in this case, you were the person behaving badly who instigated the situation.
> But I doubt I’ll learn anything from it
Yes, unfortunately it seems unlikely you will.
I’m afraid to say, that if you want a boundary, go home. Otherwise, accept that you’re in public, and people can and will speak to you.
Also, you’ve just justified being violent in response to someone making sounds with their mouth. I bet you’re a calm person to be around, when everyone does what you want.
> In what world do you live?
In what bubble do you live? Go out into the world and behave like the GP. Your apparent mental model of society will collapse quickly.
Shamefully my tourist-shields were at maximum after experiences in Morocco/Ethiopia and similar, and many people I ignored and kept walking as fast as I could.
Eventually I found myself in a conversation I couldn't easily escape from and I realised... they're just being friendly. They were all just being friendly. I spoke to dozens afterwards and had nice little chats, with no motives, no scams, no sales, no brothers-uncle's shop that I must visit.
(I did get scammed in the taxi though, by someone who didn't make conversation :) )
When I asked about him, he mentioned he’s Irish but moved on to tell me about his plans. How he was saving to have a farm, planned what to grow, animals - 15m of quite precise description. His story was his future.
This was striking for me - when asked most people tell you about their past, where they’re coming from. It was the first time I realised that where we’re going should be a bigger part of our story and identity.
I try to keep that conversation in mind.
Sadly, nothing. Stuck on 2 part time jobs, I see more layoffs than job posts, I'm about to be soft evicted from my current dwelling, and my country decided to start yet another needless war.
That question works in good times in a high trust society. Now it just reminds you how little there is to look forward to.
It's reasonably possible at events. Cars and Coffee works great, since everybody wants to talk about their car. I doubt it will work at the dentist, since nobody really wants to be there in the first place. Maybe if they're wearing a shirt or something you can compliment or ask about and then can use that as a springboard?
If you're the dictionary definition of an extrovert you can probably still make it work, but you'll really stand out, and you'll be rejected a lot.
It doesn't seems...fair...and, again, says a lot about society.
Most people are in headphones and give weird looks if you try doing small talks. I find it's easier to talk with older people.
Most important line in this article. People will always find an excuse (and i'm including myself in this at times) but that is all it is, an excuse. Talking to people is what makes us human and its innate. You might not be the best conversationalist or whatever but you can still talk to people, no need to put any pressure on it.
Not everyone wants to talk but you can pick up on that pretty quickly.
Respect people's boundaries please. Don't force yourself on people unless they're obviously willing participants.
People put extroversion/introversion as like this binary, permanent thing that cannot be changed. In reality I think it is a spectrum that changes throughout the day and the situation. Someone might be introverted at 8am on their commute, but a wild extrovert at 9pm in the bar. Don't assume, don't try to "help" people you know nothing about.
In your ideal world, how would someone even signal they are a "willing participant" without talking to someone?
It's supreme arrogance. Read the body language and just leave people alone.
If someone is up for talking they'll show the obvious signs - facing you, eye contact, smiling, that sort of waiting-for-something look/expression. I've had e-fucking-nough of people thinking they can "fix" me when I am trying to get some time to myself waiting for a train or whatever after a stressful day at work or being woken up endlessly by kids/neighbours/whatever.
Otherwise it should be "talk to anyone who is obviously open to and willing to have a conversation with you", at which point it's a total tautology anyway and you don't need a guide, it's just natural chat that you don't need to force on someone to make it happen.
Something I learned from being around a few outgoing friends over the years, the easiest way to start a conversation is to ask questions. Even if you already know the answer, it breaks the ice and let's them do the talking. Don't know what to say next? Ask another question.
Because of this I do nicotine. Is this healthy? Probably not.
says a lot about society
Although, the good part, is that the personality doesn't seems to be genetic and doesn't come from your parents either, otherwise we would be extinct (literally).
Unfortunately, this situation makes me think about genre issues in an different way, not only sort of understanding why they happen, but surprised that it's not more common. I've met very horrid persons, that have achieve what I haven't, just because women doesn't seem to try to see past them. Is like they gave up...
before 1990s there was very little international travel, small town everyone know each other, speak english. very little drugs and tattoos etc. stranger on the street most likely grew up less than a few hundred miles away. very little gun violence between strangers. most importantly no stupid pick up artist culture.
most blue collar people were only friends with blue collar people (not even drink wine), rich people only hang out with rich people (beer is for the plebs, only wine for us), and class was obvious by your clothes. they judge whether to talk to you by haircut , makeup., etc. remember this time many people dont even know what an ivy league school is. no internet.
now we have open society without judgement or visible hierarchies, it is not possible for a stranger to judge you so they they will totally avoid you. now you must install apps. these are merely a computer algorithm for women to judge men (salary, height, SATs, postcode, wealth) and filter
the best way is to join local community groups and form friendships over time. but now even these are being used aggressively to findd women, like running clubs and climbing clubs, so people will be very apprehensive of you. you must choose an interest which you genuinely enjoy but requires enough specific effort it doesnt end up full of normoids.
Maybe I've had bad luck, maybe I need to search more, but still...the situation seems to be similar everywhere.
eg videogaming subculture was good during 00s LAN era because it was local. you would be seeing people from your town and surrounds. now gaming is just online random anons
pottery classes, painting, hiking trails, wine bars, farmers markets .
> Go out into the world and behave like the GP. Your apparent mental model of society will collapse quickly.
The problem you’ve got is that I will win. If you permit escalating mouth words to physical violence, I’ll have stabbed you in the face for your mouth words before you’ve gotten very far. Subduing your propensity for physical escalation is in your favour.
Of course you would. What an infantile response divorced from reality.
I don't fathom what kind of trauma would lead you to take this positive, light-hearted advice to connect to fellow human beings, and to spin this into such a vile, evil, anti-social narrative.
How does that help?
Don't assume people want to talk. Respect boundaries, leave people alone.
Have you? You're dripping with condescension for everyone who's replied to you so far, in addition to the guy in your anecdote. You've asked one person to "fuck off" when they were polite. Do you think closewith or pingou have enjoyed their interaction with you?
Or is your art of talking to people just meant to amuse you and ignore the feelings of others?
By the way, there is a social convention that we refrain from commenting on what's on people's phones even though we can see it. It's considered an invasion of privacy if we do.
Someone doesn't understand an example when they see one.
> You're dripping with condescension for everyone who's replied to you so far,
Yes
> Or is your art of talking to people just meant to amuse you and ignore the feelings of others?
Every one of you has failed to see what's wrong with expecting people to act the way _you_ want when in public, and been compelled to tell me how _you_ think I should act to make _you_ happy. I can act the way I want, just like the gorilla on the train can act how he wants, and hark: this is the world. One can laugh at it, or one can get angry. I am laughing. You are, what? Being moved by symbols appearing on a screen, which evoked emotions attached to your lack of control over the way _I_ behave, which makes you feel afraid because I could "invade your privacy" -- what does that even mean? Like seriously, what does that matter what my eyes see? Why am I responsible for averting my eyes from shit you're presenting in public? Why should I not pass comment? Did I hurt your feelings? Because you forgot you're in public and didn't keep your shit private enough? Or did you hurt your own feelings through your own unrealistic expectations and your own failure to keep private what you just bandied around in public?
Because I can explain why you shouldn't turn into an ape and physically attack someone. Because physical violence leads to injuries which cannot be undone.
I am so sorry that I saw your phone in public, and that your feelings were so hurt by what my eyes saw - as a failure to stare firmly at the ground. And I'm sorry that my mouth vibrated some air particles that tickled your eardrum in a way that revealed a truth that made you feel uncomfortable. Beat me, I deserve everything you have for me.
What a troubled world you're trying to enforce.
> By the way, there is a social convention that we refrain from commenting on what's on people's phones even though we can see it.
There's a social convention that you don't go around displaying tits on screens that other people might see. So what? Did I turn into an ape and start fighting him? No.
>It's considered an invasion of privacy if we do.
"Invasion"? I barely moved a muscle. On this basis, his pornography invaded my consciousness. Did I turn into an ape and start fighting him? No.
Forgive me for speaking to all of you, for a brief moment, from a place of condescension, but y'all have a fragile expectation of privacy in public, if y'all are gonna turn into gorillas the moment you become aware of your own failure to conceal what you wish you kept private. Privacy is not in harmony with the properties of the physical world when in close proximity to other human beings - and it's not anyone's job to turn their eyes off, or keep their mouth shut, for your pleasure, just as the sky has no job ensuring the weather is in keeping with your desires. You can either fight or allow the world around you. I'm suggesting to you, that you allow it. The world rains on me all the time, and I play with every drop. If you're fighting, you're choosing to fight, and it's not a good look. If you're being "invaded", you're choosing to have something to defend.
I'm declining your invitation to close my eyes, and I'm letting you know my door is open, so come on in, but please, if you wouldn't mind - take your shoes off.
<3
Well, mastering the art of talking to anyone involves being able to initiate a conversation with people of many cultures, in many mental states, in many circumstances.
A master of talking to anyone won't begin with a condescending and invasive comment, as they will recognise that beginning a conversation disrespectfully is unlikely to be received warmly.
Am I doing it right?
No. That’s responding with aggression, to an otherwise placid comment.
I posit that you would be better off practicing being less offended and stuck up your own arse, and learning to live a little.
It can be delightful to be surprised, but if you are surprised all the time then I would say something may be wrong in the way you see the world.
Nowhere did I say that people should mind their own business at all time. You cannot imagine a situation where you shouldn't talk to a person? You feel entitled to look at their phone? Is there no social boundary you respect? You are free to not respect them, but you can't hardly be surprised to experience pushback. Again, I like that people like you exist, I hope I don't come as too aggressive.
I’m sure you’ve encountered the phenomenon of noticing something unusual within your line of sight.
If you’re going to engage with such content in public with such disregard that others’ gaze may be drawn to it, then you deserve to receive whatever wisdom or drivel may spill from those onlookers lips.
And you’re right, there is nothing stopping anyone from talking to me. I accept their intrusion into my space as a peril of being in public. If you climb through my window to speak to me, that is a different matter.
I think this should be a key point here, for people motivated by curiosity. I don't seek out conversations with strangers, but when they happen I lean heavily into this aspect.
My pro-tip for talking to strangers is to talk about them; ask where they're from, what they do, how their job works, and so on... They are usually more than happy to carry the conversation, they feel like they're being appreciated for being interesting, and you learn so much.
As a throwaway example, I found out from someone at a bar that composing music specifically for movie trailers is a business in itself, and the creators do not even know what movie or what trailer their music will be used for. They get direction, they deliver the music, and usually only find out when the trailer is released. Isn't that interesting?
And if they ask about you, even easier, you get to feel interesting instead!
I was always very uncomfortable socializing growing up and still am, but just like with anything, it gets easier with practice. (Alcohol helps too, if that's an option!)
It's a valuable skill, so I do sometimes practice trying to adopt the work persona at home, but it really doesn't come naturally.
I never practiced "idle conversation with a complete stranger" like that because I was lazy. But I did practice making normal, non-sexual, conversation with women on dating sites and dates so that I could go from "isolated in school, then after going online, low response rate and never more than 1 or 2 dates" to someone in a long-term relationship. And recognizing that sort of "ok there's just not any interest here, move along" signal was definitely relevant there too.
Skills take investment.
My parents didn't give me nearly as many opportunities to practice these skills as they had when they grew up, and pop culture actively encouraged me not to talk to strangers as a kid, so I had to work harder at them as an adult. But it was worth it.
It doesn't. It just helps the speaker.
Some people are not into that, don't suspect it or don't know how to handle that. Like half of this comment section, I really read some cringe comments here about how people don't want to be talked to. To them I can only say: don't worry, I see/feel from miles away that you don't want to be talked to. And even then, I might say 'hi' to you, just to gauge what happens. ;)
For me, it's okay if people don't say anything back. That's not even the point. I want to share a little positivity with the world (when I'm in the mood) and 90% of reactions are either a big smile back, a little nod or even a small conversation. There's nothing for me to 'win' (as a lot of commenters seem to think is the point); thinking in these terms makes it a business transaction.
I found out that especially elderly people are way more open to these things. Also, people who don't seem open to it (probably going through a bad time) might actually surprise you with a warm and welcome smile. These little interactions taught me to not judge a book by it's cover, give a little without expecting anything in return, and just knowing that you made somebody smile who needed that.
So if you think this article is something you want to try, but you're a little afraid thinking about whole conversations and stuff, just start with greeting random people. Don't see it as a transaction, just see it as age old human behavior (which it is). If you have a hard time reading social clues, this also might be a good way to practice that a bit.
I hope more and more people do not continue to believe that, there is so much good out there in the world and we all have to engage it or we're just letting the low trust side win and life becomes a lot less because of that. Everyone already into chatting for chatting sake now and then, please continue to do so. You're doing a world a huge service. The rest not, come join us, the water feels great!
Some of the best conversations I've had started by me asking or telling someone something in a awkward or overly simplified way at first. It takes the pressure off of both of you and a more natural conversation takes place as you both work to get on the same page, which takes time and leads to more conversation.
In the past I'd think of the perfect sentence with little nuances and edge cases covered in that sentence to what I was trying to convey, which would result in no real conversation to even take place.
Of course you will run into people who are unfriendly and won't receive this well but overall it's lead to more pleasant and natural conversations.
my story is me and my wife moved to another country a few years ago for my study. after 4 months moving there, she already know and conversed with the people working the apartment and some neighbors. while i mostly just exchanged cursories and nods and glances. then one day we just walked out together and the same people i passed earlier just says hello and converse and stuff with my wife and me. yes she's very much an extrovert but i can see people are way 'more open' and my wife has that too. me on the other hand do have 'i don't want to bother you so please don't bother me' vibe.
One thing I love about socials at conferences is that it's a self selecting group of people who want to talk to other people, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Even if people are shy and awkward they are in that room because they want to be social, even if they aren't able to start the conversation themselves. There's also usually a code of conduct for the conference so you have a better chance of people behaving in an acceptable way towards you, which makes the whole thing feel less risky. Over the last 10 years I've gotten much better at talking to people at these events and now quite enjoy them.
That being said I still find it really hard to walk up to a group of strangers and say hi, but in this setting it's way more socially acceptable, so I force myself to do it. I much prefer to be invited into conversation by another person, which does happen occasionally. But sometimes you have to be the one to start.
The only time I've found it go negatively is when you chat with a group of people who all work together, especially if they are remote, because they may be using the conference social to bond with their colleagues and not some random person. But that's their problem, and you should just watch for that scenario and move on to another group.
Learn a few words in a variety of languages. They are great conversation starters / expanders – I made a lot of actual friendships by talking to people (after taking their orders), asking them where they’re from, and then knowing a few words in their language. Nothing makes people happier than hearing someone speak their native language, no matter how poorly.
This was in a university town, so knowing a couple words in Chinese, Arabic, Hindi, etc. was useful.
joke or not (actually not) but read some women spaces and it's obviously a lot of people, especially women, just want to be let alone. Don't start talking with random people unless they start talking to you and it's consensual, simple as that.
Later I realized this is wrong on my part, talking is all about talking, let the vibe continue and don't let it die.
Also let the other person do most of the talking.
Even when people seem nice I generally keep a distance as I have to analyse them slowly instead of relying on social cues. I do pick up cues but processing them is not subconscious. My subconscious is not as generative and acts more like a buffer for conversation, so all the talking I do subconsciously has to be placed there beforehand instead of generating it with subconscious heuristics.
Growing up in a conservative, religious household outside the US, there was no support for slow processors, and those who didn't fit the dogma were simply told to 'shut up.' The more you were forced to shut up, the more you closed off. Since this was before the internet, self-help tools were non-existent. I really wish the coaching tools and protocols we have today had been available back then. It wouldn't have changed everything, but it would have given me the tools to manage many situations that I simply couldn't handle at the time.
And yes, I agree with the headline... talk to people, anyone, everyone. Maybe you’ll get help, or maybe you just go for it—because regardless of any embarrassment you face now, you may find yourself proud of that courage decades later.
PS: Improved with AI
Once this is done, everything feels easy. The trick is to have a rough idea of what you'll say and just take the plunge. And practice.
We all fear rejection. Once you get past that fear, you realise most people are reasonable human beings just like you.
If you're curious about the topic, I recommend the book Rejection Proof, by Jia Jiang.
I know the article's advice is to take a chance, and if I scare someone else so be it. But something about that feels wrong to me.
Or perhaps alternately I've learnt over the years to be more genuinely friendly.
I've seen men and women attempting to start a friendly conversation and have it backfire - because others can tell if someone is needy. Sometimes people are desperate for a conversation, but they sadly frighten away everyone.
I've also really leant into starting conversations with other guys. The stereotype is a bunch of old men yacking about "boring" stuff, and you can totally just accept that and have fun talking about anything. It's only boring if you lack the wit to discern something interesting within a conversation.
There's also an art to looking approachable, so that others can initiate a conversation with you. I am not skilled at it, but I recognize it. Or alternatively recognizing when someone is open to having a conversation started.
I've had three long and very memorable conversations on internaltional plane flights in the past, with three extremely interesting and intelligent people. I don't tend to take those flights anymore, they were for work and the novelty of international travel for work wore off. Now I get out of it whenever I can.
But those three conversations have stayed with me.
> We are losing a basic human skill. The ability to speak to others and understand them is being compromised.
I fail to see how these two ideas are connected. How is my ability to speak and listen to the people I care about—my parrnts, my friends, my spouse and kids—hindered by my unwillingness to talk to a complete stranger in a supermarket line? I don't hate or hold any ill feelings towards them, it's just that I'm more comfortable being to myself and I have only so much capacity to talk and too many people in the city I live in. I would understand if the article was focused on the reluctancy to bond with people in more or less stable groups (at work or at school) but I don't buy the "strangers" argument.
I remember going to a motel (they actually had cabins) to reserve a place for relatives coming into town. The owner was a nice guy, and he ran the whole place himself.
I took the girlfriend with me, drove over and we walked over to talk to him. As I started the conversation, you could see he took pride in his place and he was a garrulous guy with sort of a twinkle in his eye.
"How much will this cost?!" the girlfriend blurted out.
All of a sudden the blossoming conversation ground to a halt, as he put his hand on the back of his neck and started thinking about what a cheap room would go for.
We talked about it later, sort of like "I think we were all starting to form a relationship at the start of the conversation, and we lost an opportunity"
I think all of us have these opportunities to form a relationship with lots of people we interact with every day, and we can allow it or deny it.
I don’t know about others but a big reason I went into software development (whether I want to admit it or not) is because I am “naturally” not very skilled in talking to, or dealing with , people.
While I’ve done very well in tech, the truth is, lacking this skill has only been a detriment.
The problem at this point is I truly don’t like random people, and I have no idea how to fix that. Often people are rude, inconsiderate, selfish, etc. the canonical example is being in a row at the grocery store, walking down the row, someone’s cart is just way out in the center blocking your path, and as you approach, they do nothing.
Anyways “people skills” are definitely a SKILL and one I’ve avoided to my detriment over the years. Need to work on that.
Northerner terrifies Londoners by saying "Hello": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT0ay9u1gg4
I like the sentiment behind what you've said, and I think you're especially right about elderly people (probably because they don't get much social interaction). I actually had an elderly woman come up to me this week to tell me I was standing in the wrong place for the bus stop - but it was sad that she had to begin by saying "Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, and you can tell me if this is none of my business and that you want me to go rack off... but I don't think the bus will stop here." I tried to be very kind and thankful with my response, because that's obviously someone who has been burned by trying to be social & helpful, and met with aggression in response before.
The dangers of daily life, while real in some way, have been over-represented in the media, and now we're given the tools to completely avoid them. Whether on purpose or not (bad news sell much better than good news, after all), these are the consequences we're just seeing.
Exactly. YMMV but that is 100% true in many urban areas. Too many people leads to less meaningful connections. I imagine much of this community lies in those urban hotspots.
>I hope more and more people do not continue to believe that
it's going to continue. Low trust societies are a structural issue, and I see little initiative to fix it. People constantly need to move around due to rising costs of living, there's no commmunity hubs, third places, frequently meeting clubs, etc. to build such community. Work hours are creeping up while compensation and stability is going down. Where would you find the time to meet up?
It's all an economic issue at the end of the day. There's a part of the equation where we don't "need" to work with as many people anymore to get by. But for he most part, it's very similar to the walk-ability issue in the US. There won't be some mass change all at once, but people take cues and change heir habits around heir environment.
For my environment, I'm a night owl and everything in my town is closed by 8pm or so. I don't like the loud environments of bars. So there's nowhere for me to really go.
A very particular case is London, which if you live on the internet you would think is some sort of hellscape where everyone is going to stab you or steal your phone on a bike if you dont run between safe spot to safe spot with eyes on your bike. But I've lived there for many years, still have friends there and visit regularly and that is so far from daily life that it is bizarrely amusing that people think that
well, yes. mission accomplished.
> The key is to just not be creepy.
Sadly, the ones who are creepy never realize they are creepy.
If you’re a man and go into it with the mindset of only talking to women, especially attractive ones, then of course that would get you labeled as a creep because it is creep behaviour. That’s not striking up a conversation with strangers, it’s hitting on women. You have to approach anyone equally. Address the attractive woman the same way you approach the old man on the bus stop.
And noone knows if you are talking to people "equally" they only know the conversation they are currently in.
I guess you could just hit on everyone. Old, ugly, whatever! Then you won't be a creep.
But in all seriousness, the difference between courting someone and creeping someone out is how attractive you are to them, not the other way around.
So which is it?
Nobody would talk with anybody if both sides thought like that
As everybody knows that's still often not enough, but why shoot yourself in the foot when you're trying to put your best foot forward?
I'll never forget the day some sophisticated gentlemen came to my school and introduced one of their big hit songs that night.
How there's 5 little words so many single women love to hear, "Hey Girl, What's Your Name?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09w6_q0Chxk
If you look at the lyrics it is a bit straightforward for the 21st century, I think the best approach now is to compress it to only 4 words, "Hi, What's Your Name?".
Even that can be a bit much in the wrong situation, so it can be good to seek out the opposite type of situation :)
You might keep that on your mind but from there let things try to imply the rest of the lyrics, especially the part that goes "Can I Be Your Friend?"
How would that work exactly? Someone needs to go first.
Don't bother people obviously and if they don't want to talk they don't want to talk, that should always be respected. It's just that the idea that "you should never talk to anyone" is massively fueling a loneliness epidemic.
As for interaction with men and women: Everyone seems to agree that dating apps suck and that people should just "go out and meet people". Good luck with that if you're not allowed to talk to anyone.
There's a number of people how are going to be creeps and disrespectful, but they also don't give a shit about your "don't talk to me rule", so now ALL your interactions are going be with creeps.
Talk to as many people as you can, but be respectful, learn to read who'd rather be left alone and stop if the person clearly doesn't want to talk to you.
Once you have shown that you are interested in someone by listening to them and thereby learning about them, you might sometimes find that they might also be interested in something you can share with them. The easiest way to get someone interested in you is to first get interested in them.
It's a pretty simple principle, but since people like to talk about themselves they often do not follow it.
Because the best food forward of a creep is still a creep.
Yeah, some people are only up to no good :\
If you can't differentiate yourself from that, it would be something to work on well before you try and be as socially acceptable as the average joe.
For everyone else who's not a creep, maybe you just have to "accept" that everyone in the world just doesn't want to be socially acceptable anyway.
Like, do random men you talk to think you're a creep? If they do, then maybe it's time to get some life coaching. If not, maybe, just maybe, there's some subtle differences in how you approach people you see as sex toys vs. people you see as, you know, people.
But the point of this exercise isn't to make a deep friendship. It's practice. Is this article inherently creepy?
>Like, do random men you talk to think you're a creep? If they do, then maybe it's time to get some life coaching.
If they do, they're a lot better at hiding it. The big difference is in threat level. I don't see men nor women approach me and think "are they trying to hurt me/hit on me" as a default.
Personally, that wasn't my takeaway. I thought it was more that you and the other person would get some joy out of the interaction. As in, conversations with strangers will be fun, even if you don't end up being friends.
You can hit on someone and connect with them.
Be nice, connect, open up, share, listen, love. All that shit.
Then you'll get a wife, like myself. Good luck.
Or just make friends, or enemies, whatever floats your boat.
I do that now and it brings me a lot of joy. Recently while leaving a botanical garden I spoke to a man who was excitedly looking for a few specific plants. He is a botanist (amateur? professional? unclear) and I enjoyed sharing in his passion for a moment. Then I saw a maintenance guy moving with great intention who took a moment to ask me and my family if we had a nice time. We did, and I asked him about the papers in his hand. “Gotta get approval for this purchase request asap.” He said. We talked a bit about how nice it is to work at such a beautiful place.
I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
They're basically making fun of people for trying to connect.
I'm in a spot where I don't really bump into strangers much but, as a recovering introvert I've tried to talk to people like this and it feels AMAZING.
Like... irrational levels of amazing vibes.
It's so frustrating seeing my own kids be horrified by it and be hyper-introverted and disdainful of connecting with strangers.
Lessons you learn the hard way -- then fail to pass onto the next generation -- hurt.
I had the same thought. The clueless people turning into their parents are charming and genuine. The life coach guy is kind of a dick.
Reminds me of Apple's "I'm a PC, And I'm a Mac" ads from Apple. I always understood the point they were trying to make, but the PC character was so much more likable than the Mac.
I find it much nicer than talking to friends of friends or the absolute worst for me... the boyfriends of my girlfriends friends. You are getting shoved together into a forced interaction that you know will be asked about in the near future.
But saying "they really need to make these doors automatic, I dropped my coffee here last week!" and helping out if they want it has the EXACT opposite effect. Suddenly, it's not embarrassing any more, and you might have a little convo commiserating about what sucks. It's just a little bit of connection to make someone's day a bit better which is definitely a win-win and good way of breaking the seal on talking to folks.
There's also another more neutral option. Just give them the answer they need without the fluff. If they then want to thank you and chat it's their choice, but completely optional.
This is probably not the right approach most of the time, but it works well on the types of people who seem "serious" (not anxious or upset).
This is a really hard one to pull off. You have to determine that they really are that type of person and then just magically know what they want. It's really satisfying when it works though.
I've met some of the most interesting people I've ever known that way.
Which country are you in?
I'm from a latin country and the norm is that you end up chatting about life the universe and everything with any random people you share a space with for more than one minute.
But in the USA that doesn't really fly. Talking is transactional, either a business deal is going on or shut up. I've been in the USA for a long time and as an introverted person I'm mostly ok with that, but whenever I'm back home I realize how much I miss talking to random people.
I remember a random guy was chatting to me in the subway, then I got out, waiting at a crosswalk for the green, in those 15 seconds another guy starts another random conversation. In the first 2 hours of the trip I already had maybe 10 random circumstantial conversations. The whole trip I felt like if I wanted I could always be talking!
This is regional within the US and obviously differs by person even then. Just remember that the people you are talking to may be the kind of people that need articles like the above to teach them how to talk to people. Their defenses go up when someone approaches them and while they are well practiced at appearing relaxed, they are not. Conversations are short because its emotionally difficult to stay in a heightened awareness state while someone is trying to pull you out of it. But you can certainly provide offramps
In the Midwest, if someone starts up a conversation and you don't engage, YOU are the weirdo.
One of their articles though was about “talking to women” but it also emphasized just talking to _anyone_. It had suggestions like “if you’re out at the bar, just ask to sit with a random group, introduce yourself, and have a conversation.”
Many years later in college, I did indeed try this at a bar and was pleasantly surprised. I didn’t make any long term friends, or find a new partner, but I did really start honing the skill of being social with anyone. It’s hard, and especially for me and my social anxiety, it has also really helped me feel more comfortable in places unfamiliar and people unknown.
People need to feel like it's safe to develop relations with you, rather than like you're trying to manipulate them into doing so, which is what happens when you learn only from very hard failures.
The conversation almost always went smoothly and I got the sense my interlocutor was pleasantly surprised to be engaged and had a great time chatting.
But for me it became a chore, rather than a joy. It was “work” like guiding/teaching somebody. The juice was rarely worth the squeeze.
You don't need to do it, but everyone should probably be at least comfortable/confident striking up conversations with people they don't know.
It would be interesting to actually talk to hundreds of people a week for years, you would probably get really good at categorizing people and predicting where they are in life and what their current concerns are.
Well, they're not really tricks, just things I do anyway.
One is that I wear an aloha shirt every day, and I shop at Trader Joe's.
Quite often someone thinks I work there and asks me where to find something. I usually know where things are, and if I don't, I find them someone who actually does work there.
One time the guy restocking the freezer said, "Nice aloha shirt! I bet people sometimes ask you where to find things."
30 seconds later, a lady walked up to me and asked if we carry organic bread. So I walked her over to the bread section and pointed out some organic options. Then back to the freezer section: "You were right!"
Another trick is to take my cat Oakey for a walk in his cat stroller. People see the stroller and expect to see a baby in it, and are surprised to see a cat! Children walking with their parents especially love to see Oakey, and he enjoys the attention.
Sometimes you just have to seize the moment. Last year I was at a friend's company summer picnic. One of her colleagues brought her ten year old son. He was wearing an astronomy T-shirt. They were sitting at another table, and as they got up I asked him, "Are you into astronomy?"
"Yes."
"I have a very important question for you. Pluto is still a planet, right?"
"Yes it is!"
We high-fived and I said, "Welcome to Team Pluto!"
We've seen each other at subsequent company events. It is always fun to hang out with a fellow astronomy enthusiast of any age.
I’ve been here since 2009 and this is one of the loveliest comments I’ve read.
At face value, it may seem ‘duh!’.. but there’s a distinct aesthetic to it that resonated with me.
Perhaps the best analogy I can think of is Asimov’s philosophy about writing.
‘I want the reader to forget they are reading as if my thoughts are being transmitted directly from my brain into theirs’ [sic]
Recently, a research publication demonstrated that an LLM.. nah, not today. Sometimes knowing the underlying theory and deciding to disengage from it and just appreciate the moment is fine.
Because I can go outside my apartment here in Tokyo right now and try it. I already do, but each of us has our own unique loveliness. So I’ll keep trying. Just because.
The exception would be at a bar or similar but outside of that... Yeesh I get terrified even considering it.
It was a much bigger struggle with conversations where I was putting extra pressure on myself. Being able to have those other conversations was helpful though. Eventually, I found a therapist and am in a better place with this.
One antipattern I've encountered with this approach tho is that sometimes anxious people will exhaust their conversation partners with a battery of questions. Even if thoughtful, this can sometimes have the effect of exhausting your partner, and tends to keep the conversation steered away from actual connection. YMMV, but either way be mindful and make it a point to share yourself
How do you deal with that?
> How do you deal with that?
You teach yourself to say no, to the things you don't want to do.
I considered leaving just that pithy reply, because that's really it. But some of the extra context; It's not a bother to ask someone to hold the door they're already going through because your hands are full. Starting a conversation is about as intrusive as that. The vast majority of people don't mind making some small talk, and ontop of that, the majority can make an excuse if they don't have time. You only assume they can't politely decline, because you can't. Once you learn to say no thanks, politely, but explicitly and directly. You'll actually understand and expect others to return the favor.
That's a much more fair way to interact with people too.
As he put it, it’s a coin toss. Maybe you’re bothering them or maybe they’re grateful to have someone to distract them. Each is equally true before you start the conversation.
The key is being able to read social cues. If you can, you can stop bothering them.
On the contrary, they’re usually very happy to tell you about what they do.
This is a common mistake many make - please don't be a "mind reader" and make assumptions. Seek clarification. Treat people like adults, and act like adults - you have the right to talk to anyone or ask someone for help. They have the right to be dismissive towards you or say no for whatever personal reason. People have different personalities. Sometimes, even nice people people act differently depending on the day they had and their moods. The point is, if they are strangers, you don't need to attribute any meaning or malice to this. However, always be mindful of social conventions and cultural practices.
My spouse had a hard time acclimating to rural Midwest life after living in a mega city on the East Coast. She complained that everything takes an extra half hour for time spent standing around talking about nothing.
It never dawned on me that if you're from a place, like a large city, where interacting with strangers or very distant acquaintances isn't encouraged, that this would not be a natural part of life.
I find this interesting but don't know what to do with that.
This is in big part due to being born and raised in a large European capital. There’s unwritten barriers you respect as a social rule, and if someone breaks the rule you assume they’re trying to sell something or scam you. To me talking to a stranger unprompted feels as out of place as pulling my pants down in public.
It’s natural for these barriers to exist to make dense spaces liveable, but they do constrain you.
And also, I really hated the religious mindset with all the little rules they have, the hatred for lgbt people, single parents, foreigners etc. There were good people too but you always had to watch who was around to have a chat. I'm very progressive and atheist. And very alternative.
My ex who was from this community even got in trouble with some parents because she told the kids she was minding that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Apparently it's normal to deny all the progress we have made as a society.
I just couldn't deal with it, it just made me so depressed. And this wasn't even in the US but just in Europe.
In the city it's much easier to find open-minded people. And the ones who aren't don't control public life. I don't ever want to live in a rural area again after that (though in fairness I do have some ptsd from it).
Or other people who are really busy right now, but in general yes, most people enjoy random interactions and talks. And most people do have interesting things to share. You have to have genuine interest, though. Don't force it - but be open for it. Make eye contact first and then you might connect. It is astonishing how many grim looking people suddenly start to smile and act friendly, if you just start a friendly conversation with them. Even if it is just a exchange of a simple comments.
I hope this is not an inappropriate question, but are you by any chance fit and/or attractive? I've heard that and being well dressed affects your experience with people a lot.
For me it's a mix, the majority at least try to be decent and pleasant, no argument there. But as with many other things, the minority who aren't tend to have a much bigger impact. Honestly, I'd take just being safe from violence from people is good enough for me, even that isn't a given.
I'd take just being safe from violence from people
I've had to spend week and a half battling Gmail daily email account limits sending batches of 500 emails just to notify people in her address book, receiving hundreds of responses. Her memorial was attended by hundreds of people.
It served her very well in her chosen career of real estate sales, although I think she'd might have done really well in community organizing or even politics where those skills are also very useful.
On the flip side, it was sometimes difficult to be there as family wanting some attention, since her bright light was always shining in many directions.
I've inherited just some of that talent, and I think it is a talent, but trainable.
I miss her already.
A few shopkeepers waved through their windows as I went past, the greengrocer came out of his shop to have a quick chat, the dry cleaner asked after my dog, and the guy from the household shop told me they have more of the cleaning paste I use. We bumped into a couple of folk I see every couple of weeks, then got a coffee and I paid the “special” rate rather than the rate on the sign that they charge people they don’t know.
My colleague said - half jokingly - “I didn’t realise you were mayor”, and tried to convince me that I should go into local politics. She couldn’t understand when I said that would take all the pleasure out of it, because talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous.
I can’t imagine not talking to people. A while back I changed the route I take when I walk my dogs each day, and the guy who runs the local fish stall started asking people if I had left the area or died. I don’t buy fish from him each week- but every time I see him stop and we have a chat.
I feel incredibly lucky to be missed by my fishmonger just because I started walking my dogs a different route.
I grew up in a tiny village in the country. The building I live in has hundreds of people living in it, compared to the few dozen houses where I grew up. I think talking to people makes a huge city feel smaller.
The main ingredient, at least for me, was being determined enough to push through the discomfort. A lot of the early interactions were awkward, sometimes overtly uncomfortable, but that's an unavoidable part of the learning process (and I took a key lesson from it - it's okay to look like a dork, usually it's only our inner critic that turns it into an immortal sin).
Nowadays I feel a pang of sympathy when I see someone feeling shy or speaking in self-deprecating terms. I remember how that felt, and I remember how easy it would have been to have stayed inside that box for the rest of my life.
Glad I didn't.
Thing is, if normal people don't talk to strangers anymore, then only the weirdos are left, reinforcing the idea that only weirdos talk to strangers...
When I’m speaking to someone in a service role, like a waiter, a cashier, or a salesperson, I remind myself that I’m just one of hundreds of people they interact with that day. To them, I’m simply another brief interaction. So if I say something awkward or if the conversation doesn’t flow perfectly, it’s not a big deal. It’s probably just one small, forgettable moment in a long series of conversations they will have that day.
Thinking about it that way helps me relax and not put so much pressure on myself. At the same time, some of the most meaningful or unexpected opportunities can come from simple conversations with strangers. You never really know what a small interaction might lead to, whether it is a new connection, a new perspective, or even an open door you did not see before.
When the service worker and you do the back and forth of "How are you doing today" - "Fine, you?" - "Fine"
Yeah don't do that, try out this phrase "It's my Monday" [0] instead of "Fine, you?"
You'll typically have them telling you what day of their work week they are in which is not usually the actual day of the week! Because managers schedule people in service positions in wacky ways.
That little bit of human connection around labor and work, man it does wonders. They know you know what it's like, that you see them as a person, and you care a little bit. Really gets the conversation going if there isn't too much of a line.
[0] Use any day of the week, but do use a weekday. Monday or Friday works best though.
I just love it, it’s easy and I get a lot in return - from perks to incredible encounters. At work it’s been very helpful.
I developed that skill while traveling alone for a year , and it boils down to practicing and reading whether the person you’re talking to is ok with your talking or not.
In any case, it makes me immensely happy.
And now because I know them I go there because I can buy my stuff but also spend five minutes chatting and that makes going grocery shopping a real joy. And because I go there and chat they do nice things like give me a couple of tomatoes or “you’ve got to try this cake” or the wine shop where I automatically get a 15% discount, or the butcher where they let me in when are already closed but they know I’ve come over specially.
And some of those people have become real friends, like go and have dinner together friends. We have very different lives but we get on because we get on. I think everyone benefits from reaching out of their bubble a bit.
If I’m feeling a bit glum I’ll go out to buy bread or something because I know just seeing the people I see regularly will lift me up.
It's good to have, but don't let not having it (yet) stop you!
I won't say I have conversations with strangers like that all the time, but it is 100% possible, and a lot of people really do appreciate it if you bother to talk to them. People often like being asked about themselves (I used to do cultural anthropology research so I have had quite a bit of practice too...).
There are of course reasons why it doesn't always work or becomes awkward. For example, gender is a factor - a significant part of the population is much more comfortable having same-sex conversations with strangers - not to mention other sociological factors around race, class, nationality, all the obvious things.
The most positive effect it has had on me is to make me enjoy even more deep conversations with my friends.
When I asked about him, he mentioned he’s Irish but moved on to tell me about his plans. How he was saving to have a farm, planned what to grow, animals - 15m of quite precise description. His story was his future.
This was striking for me - when asked most people tell you about their past, where they’re coming from. It was the first time I realised that where we’re going should be a bigger part of our story and identity.
I try to keep that conversation in mind as a lesson, and as a reminder to talk to people around.
My 13 year old is the opposite. He is always telling me that I talk too much to "strangers" and that "people don't to that". I'm assuming he means his peers.
People, in most part, are good. Some are really quite lovely such that it reminds me of Bilbo's birthday speech:
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"
We are in a public forum afterall and we are all strangers here. I'm always happy when random person sends me an email.
It's all nice to imagine everyone talking to each other, but the reality is that in (western?) society, we have kinda collectively decided that socialisation is to be avoided. Either it's too weird, too boring, or too unsafe. I mean have you tried randomly talking to people? Most don't seem very open to it.
Also it doesn't help that the little "pretext" scenarios that can lead to socialising are being systematically eliminated from our lives.
And finally, if you're neurodivergent or otherwise aren't perfectly typical, enjoy people thinking you're weird anyway.
I agree re the pretext scenarios disappearing and re neurodivergence adding extra challenges.
RE the former: there are lots more of these pretext scenarios than you might realize
RE the latter, I realize it's not your point but for what it's worth, you won't really be able to tell in most cases that someone on the street or wherever is or isn't nd. Meaning: there's a good chance that the person you are talking to is nd themselves. Lots of us are pros at masking
In general though i would say to be careful when generalizing about human behavior in a way that causes you to implement and enforce rules / limitations on your own behavior in response. This is unavoidable, right? And yes, there's often an nd component to this. But especially as you get older, these can start to calcify and limit you in increasingly destructive ways
Unsure of what a lot of people in this thread are talking about, they have been misled into believing some very antisocial things and do not seem pleasant. Perhaps it is best they stay inside and do not talk to anyone.
I am not an old british lady or a 7ft tall underwear model / pro athlete, I'm just some dude. The closest thing to a change I've experienced is having to be more proactive about smiling or demonstrating that I am not what others have very legitimate cause to fear as of recent. That sucks a lot and makes me quite sad.
Not saying bad things don't happen, but I've certainly never worried about violence up until recently. Unspoken social contracts are being broken by people who have not considered the consequences, my heart breaks for them and what will have to happen next.
The world is much smaller than you realize. If 90% of everyone was crooks or criminals, you would not be posting that shit right now, because you would not be alive. They don't do that because it's bad for business. A lot of what is happening right now is predicated on the concept of there being some amount of business that is okay to lose in exchange for... problematic ideals. Business will win
Didn't catch on, though. Setting up events turned out to be too prohibitive. If this interests anyone feel free to contact me at contact [at] eventful [dot] is
Are there people still using the app? If so how are they making money?
Talking to your fellow humans in all sorts of situations is how you can form actual knowledge within yourself derived from direct observation. Everything else is a filter and synthesis. How can you know "reality" if you don't interact with it directly?
Most of them are unbearably boring, and they need to resort to alcohol and professional sports just to have anything to talk about in the first place.
Bring up ECDSA and suddenly you may as well have just beamed down from a spaceship.
But outside of these parameters? It's very slim picking.
I know what ECDSA is and if you brought it up in a random conversation unprompted I'd try to find your spaceship so I could escape the conversation on it.
I did this a few times and it surprisingly worked. I was able to make small talk about an article I was reading. Did it matter that I didn't come off with the confidence of Tony Robbins? No.
Obviously this works only if you are an extrovert. Introverts would find this kind of interaction a wasteful use of limited social energy available to them.
Categorizing yourself in a way that may purposefully stunt your growth and reduce opportunity for growth is a wasteful use of life.
I’ve done what OP describes but I’m heavily introverted and likely HSP too. I’m pretty good at it but it’s incredibly exhausting. My father is exactly the same way.
As I get older, the more I consider self care and prioritising my own needs over others to be happy. To that end, I much prefer to keep to myself and so I do.
However it doesn’t stop me from engaging in impromptu conversations. I just don’t go out of my way to talk to literally everyone.
I don't want or need to talk to everyone, and I generally don't appreciate people I don't know or won't know in five minutes to engage me in idle chatter. Just leave me be.
I'm not a grouch, I'm not a grump, I'll be friendly but why do you have to harass me?
I'm perfectly comfortable in my own skin, doing my own thing, by myself. I don't have social anxiety, I'm not a misanthrope. Just let me be.
Introverts aren't broken. You don't have to impose yourself on everyone else.
Now, you occasionally end up talking to someone who confesses to you that their post-nuclear dream life is to be a mother figure to a band of semi-aware ghouls. Goofy in the moment, but makes for a great story to share over a beer!
Now traveling with my own family is just exhausting chore and I couldn't care less about stranger sitting next to me, I heard enough stories for whole my life since I traveled a lot.
Recently I traveled with my mother to China and she was excited to talk with some girl next to her on long flight, I didn't find any value gained from such conversation and would rather watch a movie (or outside window is that was an option) and find it harder and harder older I get to see the added value.
Sorry but I couldn't help imagining you as the fake health inspector from Fawlty Towers while reading your comment.
I do agree with you though, talking is great, we are social animals even though modern life allows us to forget this, to our own detriment.
I have a note at the beginning of my journal that says: 'Stand up straight, eye contact, smile', because I constantly need to remember that or I will look down, slouch and move through the world barely interacting with anyone.
That just hasn't been my experience.
They really are not.
I ask him what he thought of the population crisis Japan is facing. He said said that was bullshit and that 8 billion people in the world are way too many.
And that was when I stopped talking to him.
This could have been an opportunity for both of you to understand each other's perspective. That's why you asked their thoughts on the matter right? It's a shame you let that pass you by.
That's a pretty extreme change!
Yesterday I got stuck with this kind of stranger for 3 hours for work stuff. It was just me and him driving. When he started telling racist jokes and expressed his dissatisfaction with human rights I thought here we go again and went for the unauthentic route. As the conversation rolled he became more easy and personal. Told me about his family, his immigration and less nice parts of his life. I felt compassion and it really feels like we ended up being more connected than the beginning.
I love this story, because I had the same experience. When my dad passed, I had the same 500 email limitation, and had to send out multiple waves of emails through Gmail. He was loved by so many people!
It is fascinating to be around such social people. I still remember my great-uncle as a kid. He lived a very simple live as a rural farmer in Germany. He did not have a wife, and he didn‘t have kids, but he had a deep tie to his family and everyone around him. When he passed away during my teens, there were hundreds of people attending his funeral. I was amazed by the impact he must have had on all their lives given they‘ve taken time out of their day to give him a last farewell.
I also notice the generational gap the author of this article highlights. My parents are in their 50s, my brother and I are in our mid 20s.
My parents still have their friends from school, from their apprenticeships and different times of their lives. We can‘t go anywhere in a 100km radius without my dad knowing someone. In school I literally had bus drivers ask me if I am <dad‘s name> son, not because they heard my name, but because we look so much alike.
When looking into my brothers and my life, most of our friends from school left for far away. Things my parents considered normal back in their days, are now considered weird. While my parents still experience an incredibly supportive circle of friends, I would not know who to invite to my hypothetical wedding tomorrow.
Granted, I may be an extreme example. But even when looking more generalized among my peers, most of the friendships we have seem to be significantly more superficial and also fewer than our parents.
How do you know what to say? How do you make the conversation flow and not end awkwardly?
Think of it this way. Everyone's favorite topic is themselves. Give someone an opportunity to talk about themselves and most people will take it. The nuance that takes practice is not peppering the person with questions. Ask, give them time to respond, and then maybe say something from your own day and ask a follow up to something they said. That way you keep them doing most of the talking, but it's not an interrogation.
As for the awkward part, embrace it! I can be super awkward so I just run towards it. "Ending a random convo is always awkward for me, so I'll just say it was nice to chat and maybe chat again sometime." Usually there's a chuckle and done.
If I'm getting a coffee if the barista says "How are you?" Rather than just saying something non-committal I'll say "I'm good thanks, it looks like you're having a busy day/quiet day - has it been like this all day?" or I'll ask a question about the beans (if it's the sort of place they regularly rotate through different beans) or I'll ask what the music that's playing is, or something like that. You can immediately tell if someone wants to continue the conversation. And obviously, if it's busy I won't try to engage them in a longer conversation unless they seem to want to.
If I'm waiting for a bus or a train asking someone "Do you know if this one goes to....{destination}?" is an easy start - obviously, even if you know it does, and you want to talk to someone, it's a good start. And then you can say "Thanks, that's really helpful, I'm going to {destination} so that I can {do a thing}. How about you - are you going anywhere nice today?"
The key thing is knowing whether someone is open to a longer conversation. That's something you can only learn by pushing through the awkwardness of people shutting you down and turning away, or making it clear they don't want to talk.
But when they do, it's almost always very enjoyable, even if it's only a few minutes.
It's amazing the difference you'll find if you go to the same shops/places regularly and make the effort to exchange a genuine human interaction with the people you meet - they remember you, and they make an effort to do things to please you. That's not why I do it, it's a positive consequence.
I think the biggest thing is to have the conversations with people with no agenda. You're not trying to achieve something, you're just exchanging a pleasant interaction with someone, and hopefully you both leave feeling a little more connected to the world.
And always ending by saying something like "Well, it was nice talking to you! See you around!/have a lovely day/something".
If you can leave people feeling like you liked the interaction, you'll gradually feel like the interactions are pleasant.
You don't need something big to say.
And having dogs helps a LOT.
Only if you let it! I am guessing you would do well, because people can absolutely tell when you are being a smarmy politician and when you're actually a legitimately friendly, decent person.
It doesn't have to and I suspect that's why your colleague suggested it. Politicians act that way because that's what people want except they don't want someone who is acting.
You have what politicians pretend to have because it makes people like them.
You might be a terrible politician for other reasons but I don't think what you've said is true.
It doesn't take the pleasure out of it, it doesn't make it transactional. It just gives them incredible job fulfillment, at least in that part of it.
Bill Clinton was famous for this. It was incredibly frustrating to his staff because he was constantly late for his next event, because he always wanted to keep talking to the people he'd just met. They'd have to build in buffer time to plan around it, because otherwise it wound up disrupting his schedule and logistics too much.
I’m trying to picture the random people I encounter while walking my dog, for example. Neighbors who I don’t know. That’d be a great place to start up a convo as I walk by but I draw a complete blank.
0 skill in this.
"oh it's such a nice day innit? It's a shame the lizard people won bingo but we'll get them next time eh?"
Be silly, get a laugh, and hopefully things unfold from there. Give a compliment! Or share something you're excited about. Imo Self-disclosure is the simplest route towards spurring conversation.
Think of conversation as a medium through which gifts are given. Through giving gifts, bonds are forged.
1. Talk about them. Start by paying attention to them. Then when you notice something that was clearly an intentional choice on their part, say something nice about it. Listen carefully to what they say, and follow up in response without filtering yourself.
2. Talk about us. Notice some aspect of experience that you are both sharing. The weather is the most popular and safest topic.
Honestly, in the least combative & confrontational possible, your thoughts there are just an excuse to not reach out and engage with the rest of your world. It's a little sad (not you, the situation itself) because if more people had that same thought, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with no one talking to each other and those people you allude to being an afraid to talk too for whatever reason become the only people out there talking. We're certainly not there yet and I hope we never get there
In my typical day at work (teacher), I spend hours talking with dozens of people. A large part of why I chose this work was to escape the isolation that I felt previously when I was doing remote software work. I attend weekly religious services and make an effort to stay for the social hour afterwards. When I go to parties, I don't feel like I have an unusually hard time talking with people. I'm not always as engaged with the world as I'd like, but I don't feel that I'm avoiding it either.
But this article isn't broadly about having conversations with new people: it's about approaching strangers in public settings one-on-one (the article mentions a bus stop, the street, and a mostly empty train carriage), where there's no expectation of social interaction. This is a different situation with its own set of pitfalls. Nobody is going to assume that I'm trying to rob them when I introduce myself at Quaker meeting. No one is going to think I'm a creep for asking a student about their hobbies while I'm at school. We don't see articles about people getting shot for starting up a conversation at a party.
But all of that goes out the window in the settings that the author describes. It's funny, the author mentions feeling like it was "rude and unsafe" to start a chat during the pandemic. I felt like talking to strangers in public got much easier during the pandemic, when people were desperate for any sort of in-person conversation. It's the normal times when this sort of interaction feels rude and unsafe.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic, maybe it would be fine for me to let my guard down a little. I think that loneliness is a huge issue these days and I'm grateful for the efforts people are making (including the author of the article) to address it. But approaching strangers in public in the way the author describes is a special case that is *much* more fraught than other types of social interaction, and is a lot harder for certain people to do successfully. I wish it weren't that way, and maybe it's worth pushing back against, but that doesn't change the current reality. Some people might not feel this way, but they're probably the people for whom it's not true.
My thoughts are formed from personal experience. You get a few experiences and you get the hint.
When I dye my hair all kinds of colors, random people talk to me (and the specific colors even dictate who talks). When I dress up in a suit, people treat me more seriously. When I dress like a contractor and drive my truck, regular dudes talk to me at gas stations. And when I dress queer, women (and some dudes) smile at me.
I'm not even outgoing personality-wise, which would help more. Personality's the mental equivalent of physical appearance. Think of it like acting: actors pretend to be a certain way, and if it feels genuine, it makes us love or hate them, intrigued or bored. It's a lot more work than changing clothes, but it works no matter what you wear.
It makes sense: people love dogs. It gives us something in common and is a starting point for conversation. And people with cute dogs seem much less threatening.
But I also kind of resent it. I wish people would want to talk to me when I'm just me.
I see what you're getting at, but also this take kinda annoys me because it falls into the bucket of implying a personal fault. If people don't socialise with you then it must be because you do or don't do X, Y, Z. "Just do X" and you'll become a social butterfly.
Based on my personal experience, I don't know if I buy it. I guess I'm a regular enough guy, but seriously almost never, across my whole life, does someone invoke random socialisation with me. Yet I know people who can't even take the bus without strangers striking up conversations and hassling them, while they are actively trying to be antisocial. What magic trick are these people performing? Can I learn the same trick? What if I don't want to perform it? I think the reality is that for some (many?) people, it just doesn't work out and it's not necessarily due to any particular flaw.
That's why I gotta pick my venues. But those venues are shrinking and growing farther apart.
How do you know what to say?, usually I can start the conversation but I don’t know where to take it after. How are you able to shift to the next stage when you have both agreed that the weather today is nice.
How do you get over the feeling that you are wasting their time?
Finally, how do you end the conversation when you're still going in the same direction or waiting at the same place?
>How do you get over the feeling that you are wasting their time? First, hold up a mirror: do you feel your time is wasted when someone talks to you? Second, everyone benefits from bonds and talking enables trust. Even if the relationship is temporary, it brings comfort. Think of two people at an airport going out on different planes. Even a short conversation with someone makes them trust enough to let the other watch their heavy luggage while they go to the bathroom.
>Finally, how do you end the conversation when you're still going in the same direction or waiting at the same place? Yeah, this is always a little awkward. You can just say something like “It’s been nice talking to you. I’m going to go back to reading my book.” Sometimes I’ll make a polite fib like saying I’ve got to think about an important presentation or have some pressing emails that I need to read.
You don't know what to say. That's fine.
You might be wasting their time. That's fine.
You might not know how to end the conversation. That's fine.
It's ok to be awkward. It's ok to be honest. It's ok to bother people as long as you take their feedback appropriately. It's ok to walk away without saying anything.
The more often that you talk to people and actively reflect on the REAL outcomes of it, the sooner you'll realize those concerns aren't shared by most other people.
That gives them a chance to take a break and think. If they say three, you put yourself in their shoes. "Hey, that sucks. what's going on?" just lending a warm comforting subtle "I'm around right now if you want to talk"
If they give you a higher number, inquire why. "Wow, a 7? That's great. How come?" Both results in giving them option to speak. You compliment in both situations, a win win. If they return with a single closing statement acknowledge it and move on, "all the best".
If you need to end, a simple of "hey, it was great talking. I've got my coffee it was a pleasure talking to you while I waited, I've got to take off but it was a pleasure to talk".
You cater it to the situation you're in. If they want to talk then they will, if they don't then they won't.
Note, rather, how friends converse and how little scripting is involved. When two good friends meet they don’t say their profession, or academic rank, or ask interrogatory questions. They exchange enthusiasm for each others presence and the conversation tends towards exchanges of perspective/experience and reflection thereof. Statement, vibes, counter-statement(?), more vibes.
That kind of familiar, friendly, approach to conversation is always available and short circuits the scripts. It efficiently probes for people who want to talk and what they want to talk about. It also tends to involve a lot of dumb-yet-charming assertions about the current situation, which takes awareness not planning. A ‘sense’ of humour, not a tight 5 locked and loaded. “Fuck, now that’s a lineup…” isn’t a refined piece of social engineering, but it’s a serviceable conversation starter and the least important part if you’re still talking three hours later.
If they are open to small talk, they will drop some tidbits that you can spring off on. Conversation is a two way street. If they don't seem interested in keeping the conversation going, tell them to have a nice day and carry on with yours.
So if you don't know what to say, the basic answer is to keep practicing. Your subconscious will eventually figure it out. (Edit: by practice I mean live practice with real people in the world - not on your own in your own head)
As for myself, here's the place I came to: I be myself and I say what I want to say, and for social calibration I rely on my subconscious.
I also let go of trying to control the outcome. The questions you're asking rest atop of wanting the social encounter to go a certain way - you want it to be "successful". Let go of that expectation and just let it organically be whatever it is - that is, take your hands off the driving wheel a bit.
The final bit is a confidence thing - feeling good about yourself, feeling that you have value (your bit about wasting other people's time hints that you somehow feel low on yourself). For that it's the Mike Tyson quote - "success begets confidence and confidence begets success". For me there was a feedback loop where the practice started to feed into social success - people enjoying my company, successful dates with women, and so on.
That final part's a very important ingredient as your subconscious needs the markers of success to latch onto as positive feedback signals on "what works". So basically you have to keep pushing and practicing until you reach the point where you get dividends. As for how long it takes to get there, it varies by individual - some are quick learners, some are slow, some have less handicaps, some have more.
But in principle I believe that most people can learn to be charming and good company.
Nobody wants randos coming up to them and asking for something.
Most people would be less lonely if everyone had more practice at making non-transactional conversation.
Actively avoiding conversation still qualifies as "weirdo" behavior to most people.
Are you willfully ignoring people at bars, night clubs, supermarkets, etc?
It's obvious 99% of the time whether or not the conversation is in the wrong place and wrong time.
I still can’t understand the point of this. Do you get a charge telling social anxious people they’ll be weird if they do their homework? That’s precisely what you did. Why?
If someone on the street tries to talk to me, I try to avoid even looking at them or acknowledging them. They'll use that as an opening. Just keep walking.
But I feel I'm better off now for doing what the article suggested, over the last 5-6 years. Doing so improved my knowledge, my empathy, grew my revenue, built larger professional networks, introduced me to hobby networks, and helped with better financial planning.
I even changed to the extent of actually looking forward to outreach activities that involve a lot of conversations. I find them very satisfying because they help me understand social realities and people better than social media and books and help me develop empathy.
I wouldn't say I'm now an extrovert. My personality still prefers a lot of alone time. There are times when I still don't feel like talking to anyone. But they're now for positive reasons like books to finish rather than negative reasons like social anxiety.
I now tend to see things like introversion and social anxiety as obstacles. One can rationalize them in many ways but they'll remain objective obstacles IMO.
Perhaps more unsurprisingly, at the mere suggestion that socializing is good for you (it demonstrably is https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11403199/), you went and wrote a comment that I can only imagine someone who is deeply unhappy would write.
We've completely normalized being a shut-in to the point where your take, that it's authoritarian to push people out into the world and engage others, is quite common. What now passes for 'extroverted' used to be known as the human condition. Even extroverts today probably have fewer friends, smaller families and spend more time isolated and on screens than 99% of humanity.
"Reduce human contact to bare minimum" is standard now, at least in America.
I love this honestly. I talked to people that insurance that talks about their customer, retired prostitute that have reached financial freedom, NEETs, right wingers, and many other curious people. The reality is that most people are sane, and with a little bit of compassion and empathy, it is possible to "see how they get there".
I suppose these extremes are only available online because people won't open these up in physical meetings.
Everyone here should note that The Guardian (I'm old enough to remember when it was The Manchester Guardian) is a UK newspaper, and adjust your understanding of its advice, or its necessity, accordingly.
I'm an introvert and I'm always surprised when a stranger talks to me, no matter where I am. But I make a point of always being pleasant back, no matter how I feel about it at the moment.
Sometimes it's just a couple sentences, and sometimes it's more of a conversation. It'd probably be more if I was better at conversations.
The only exception is if I feel the other person wants something from me, or they seem crazy or dangerous. I don't engage with those types.
I live in tourist Prague, pretty much never talking with someone other than when I see someone clearly struggling with directions in public transport and I see they go out of the tourist city center I just confirm whether they know it, most of the time* it's not what they intend to do.
*Germans being the exemption, seems they like to do whole team line grim the end to end to see the city even when it's not touristy, for these I have recommendation of some rare above the ground subway sections
It’s a good app, I’m not saying the people that run it are good lol.
And the best part is that I never talk to those folks again ;) I found out that I actually really like making fast friends, I just hate the obligation of long-term close-knit friendships.
But I got some good consulting gigs from the ones that did go somewhere.
The problem with extroverts is they assume everyone is like them. And they are pretty loud and push their opinions on others without the ability to listen and reflect. They would ignore that you are not like them, and would come up with all the arguments about "trying", "limiting growth", "training the muscles".
You can't accept that I know what's good for me? You want to change me? You think you know me better than I do? Then fuck you, I'll just stop talking to you without even telling you why.
And that's the exact reason why, in the real world, I just stop any communication with them. If they cannot adjust their communication so it can be enjoyable to me, I'm not going to pretend I enjoy communicating with them.
I was once decently intoxicated on a subway ride home and I saw a man looking at the floor who seemed upset. I asked him how he was doing and he said “alright.” We chatted a little and he randomly asked me, “do you have a brother?” I told him I did and he asked me, “is there anything your brother could do that would be unforgivable?” I said, “I’m sure there are things he could do that would be beyond forgiveness, but I would have to think long and hard about given how permanent that decision could be. Cutting someone out of your life can be a good thing, but make sure it’s what you think is right because you may never have the opportunity to undo it.”
He seemed to really appreciate the advice and went on his way. I’m not sure what his brother did, but I hope they are able to figure it out. Those types of interactions are (IMO) one of life’s little pleasures.
There are many reasons why people are introverts. Some of them are "broken" and could use a fix, some are healthy and should not be touched.
If the source is a lack of confidence, it should be dealt with. Sometimes the fix involves pushing oneself to talk beyond their comfort level, sometimes not.
If the source is a form of ASD or Autism spectrum, then it depends very much on what the "introvertness" is costing them. If the person is either suffering or is living out of touch with reality, that's broken. Sometimes talking is absolutely required to create a fix. (Over here, even more-so, getting guidance is a must. Which is a shame since the more a person on the spectrum needs guidance the less he is likely to accept it)
If the source is an understanding of one's relative position (eg. at a meeting of seniors) then that's fine, but too much of that can be unhealthy.
If it's from depression, than please don't introvert. Get professional help.
If you are so into your phone that you've forgotten the joy of interaction with humans, that's broken. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this category, and social media and AI are making things worse. (Nothing new though - 30 years ago I helped a kid who was watching 18+ hours of video, on a CRT! He was mighty introverted, and wanted nothing to do with us humans for weeks after starting treatment.)
If you are just a confident guy/gal that just happens to enjoy your own space, than all the power to you! From what I have heard there are a LOT of people that fall into this category, and I have even meet two or three of you!
But let me stress, even if things are broken, the advice in this article can often make things worse. And if it's not a problem for you, enjoy!
Your baristas must be particularly nice ones, bc I've never been asked that by any over here.
I often ask people when I first see them, “ hey how’s it goin’? “
And 99.9% of the time it’s a short “good, u?”
Very much just a hi/hi type oft thing.
I would say that sometimes you have to make a distinction between truths about the world and beliefs that can be helpful to you personally; sometimes these are in contradiction with each other, so you may find that you have to prefer to fiction to the truth in order to achieve better results.
This seems to be very common and accepted wisdom in the world of sports: a weaker opponent going against a stronger opponent may have virtually no chance of success, but they can marginally improve those chances via "belief."
Scamming crools frequently do have good social skills, but of course there is that risk of being scammed if you talk to them.
But I'm not an extrovert and not supportive of a dictatorship of extroverts. For example, I'm not a fan of imposed socializing of office coworkers outside the office in order to fit in.
Regarding "for some reason," it's quite obvious - you made a mistaken assumption and that's the only reason I came here to gave a counter example and a counter view to your wrong assumption. I wouldn't have written any of this as a top comment.
Supermarkets are a toss up. Most people are there to get their food and get out.
As I understand, GP is recommending that folks take a risk that their drumming up a conversation might be unwelcome if they are unsure. They're not advocating for folks to harass people who are in no position to chat or who have stated as much.
People can't read minds, so I think we owe grace to the folks around us if they misread a situation and respect your wishes when you let them know that it's you're unwilling or unable to chat at the moment.
While it's great to learn social cues, it's often impossible to know whether someone is in the mood to chat.
I was a foreigner in that country too and there's been so many times that people were bitching about foreigners with me present, only to realise and go like 'present company excepted of course' as if that makes it ok.
In my experience it just made me the exception to their prejudices but did nothing to actually remove them.
And I was not in the US either by the way.
Well if I don't know what to say, I either don't start a conversation or I can use some opener like "How are you?" and then end the conversation (because I don't know what to say). But then what is the point?
:)
And if you think they'y aren't ending, you need to go look at the numbers and then look at the double speak on solutions. There are no known solutions. Every solution requires a miracle that has never happened.
I share the same sentiments as you, it'd be a tragic loss. But saying they'd "end" is well, unlikely. The countries will shrink. Japan population could reach 60M by 2100 if nothing is done. That's still a lot of people and by then other factors will dominate and fertility may rise again.
Humans are adaptive and a lot can change in half a century, so I would not overly index on what projections say. Everything would need to stay static for the projections to matter, which given the rate of technological changes and geopolitical tension, sounds likely.
Kindly, I think this is where you went wrong
There's only so mach a person can take being on the other side of someone like that. We drifted apart...
I want to change that too, but that involves time for hobbies instead of job searching and worrying about debt.
I think the trick to converse on a more engaging level is to introduce conversation that invites deeper thought. Somehow you need to intrigue the other person. Compel them through curiosity to leave their comfort zone and join you where you'd prefer to be.
IMO, even disagreement can be agreeable if it's not confrontational, if you genuinely express curiosity to learn what they think, what they care about.
Applies to almost any situation, really.
"I guess the bus is just never on time here, huh"
(Stuck in line at the grocers) "Friday evening rush-hour"
Same kind of thing with whatever you are observing, at the Doctor, in the gym, waiting for the light to turn, etc, etc.
It's all shit jokes if you can even call them that. But the purpose isn't to start a standup routine, it's to share a situation with a stranger and open up the floor to conversation. You are basically just indicating to a stranger: "Hey, I'm open for conversation", they can then choose to respond or just ignore the remark. Then you go from there.
I'd add also that learning to hear someone tell you no and not taking it to heart and getting on with your life. So many people walk through life being afraid of hearing someone reply "no" to them, like its some existential rejection of them and that stops them from doing many things.
I'll make chit chat with anyone, and people who dont want to chat with are generally pretty explicit about saying they dont want to chat or don't have time, or pretty obviously implicit about it by not engaging or looking for ways out.
I live in an apartment (condo). I’ve been practicing making small talk with people in the elevator. The conversations aren’t all winners. Lots of people are closed off or don’t want to chat. But no matter. Elevator conversations are disposable. And most people are genuinely lovely. It’s a fun challenge trying to brighten the days of strangers.
I feel that line of thinking can have some very grave consequences. My mind is swimming with intrusive thoughts half the time.
If it is just about saying 'no', read this book, it's helped a lot of people:
When I say no, I feel guilty Book by Manuel J. Smith
In other cultures, you signal respecting someone's time by making small-talk with them.
Advice about making small talk vs. not making small talk is not really useful unless it acknowledges this cultural divide and the percentage chance a stranger falls into one culture or another.
I do appreciate how direct people in the northeast tend to be, and sometimes miss that aspect of the culture.
That's not saying you should not try, but learn to recognize early signs of folks not being interested and don't push it.
Strong words. I'd like to understand your choice of words here.
> Categorizing yourself
Also known as knowing yourself, your strengths, and your weaknesses.
> purposefully stunt your growth
A wild assumption that talking to everyone will magically let you grow. Some people just prefer to focus on people that matter to them.
> ... reduce opportunity for growth
By choosing to compete in an area that is your weakness, you already limited your growth potential.
> ... wasteful use of life
So refusing to talk to everyone is a wasteful use of life. Again, I find it more wasteful to talk to anyone instead of people who matter to me. Unless it's fun, of course.
Learning about who you are helps you know your limits and boundaries, which means you can learn to do more within your comfort zone and how far you can stretch it, which means your comfort zone expands and you can do more. That's the kind of growth I think comes with categorising oneself.
Knowing who you are and what your boundaries are is important. Being an introvert is not a weakness, as much as being an extrovert is not a strength. It's only that extroverts are louder and more assertive, and that way they convinced the majority of people in between that everyone should be an extrovert.
An alternative is to do things which allow you to become more comfortable with a reasonable degree of personal risk. Which can include things like rock climbing which you do on your own.
Having the kind of network and connections you do connects you with the actual needs of your community
At which point, it's not necessarily Transactional, but fostering connection and collaboration in order to create win-win situations for everyone in your community.
That's what politicking Should be.
If you are naturally a distrusting person people will pick up on it, just how people will pick up if you're naturallly an open person. (The true trick is realizing that "naturally" can be changed)
Also, what about neurodivergent people who may express their openness/closedness somewhat differently? Are they screwed no matter what?
I won't say you can't do anything to influence your approachability, but I really do think there is a very large component which is essentially fixed, and people rarely acknowledge this (which is annoying).
> …you’re arguing against someone who believes they are.
when actually it says
> …you’re arguing against who someone believes they are.
(meaning “you're arguing with someone against who they believe themselves to be” or something like that.)
My brain on a Monday in a crap mood driving on the highway: that jerk that just cut me off has ruined my entire day.
My brain on Friday after good sleep and a relaxing morning: heh look at the guy, he's definitely in a hurry. Hope he gets where he's going, back to my jams!
I try to train myself to remember to be Friday brain, but sometimes Monday brain comes out and I'm in a funk that makes me forget I actually have a choice about NOT reacting a specific way. I like to think I'm getting better at consistently not sweating the small stuff and just letting those instances go without giving them an appreciable amount of mental space better suited to relaxing and listening to good music.
Agreeable comments will draw comparatively fewer replies, while disagreeable ones achieve the opposite.
But this then results in a "false experience" for the individual, where unlike in real life, the bad exchanges do not end up outweighed by the good ones, as you simply don't go on to have those. You just upvote and move on (often to avoid redundancy).
Maybe if the two were tied together (voting either up / down & sending a reply), communities would work healthier? I don't know. Not like it's easy to have this tried out.
I could definitely see challenges to this though, the aforementioned redundancy being one. I have some countermeasure ideas, but then I wonder if that would make the UX complicated enough to drive people away instead, which is a lose-lose.
(okay, that joke was tasteless, but admit it - you probably giggled before you remembered to be horrified)
One thing though is why you see new people as any different than strangers? I'm not a Quaker or ever attended a quaker meeting (but have always liked the ethos of the vibe) so don't know how that goes. But i've spent time in christian churches in my younger days and even though we were all there for the same reason, those people were still also strangers. Some already had their cliques they'd speak to and catch up with and I'm sure if someone outside that spoke to them the same double take that initially occurs talking to any new person or stranger would still occur there. Some people would want to continue chatting, some people would rather just talk to whoever they were talking to before. But its still fundamentally the same thing as talking to (or attempting to talk to and being shutdown by) someone doing the same thing you are currently doing, whether that's being on a train or sitting at a cafe etc.
There are settings where I'm much more likely to engage in conversation with a random stranger than others, because I know it's far less likely that they will react unpredictably and/or try to scam/hurt me.
Lightly adapted from [1], which is actually the best article online about how to find love and date.
[1] https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2018/05/25/models-a-summ...
It's not like I don't give people a chance, but I'm pretty quick in identifying and cutting off people who are draining my energy, even if they are otherwise quite nice and enjoyable company for others.
Even if talking to people is beneficial (I can accept that), you're also shaming people for being introverts. Nobody should be faulted for enjoying me-time. It isn't even harmful. No, it's not like eating too many sweets.
I know I can eventually beat it, and I'm so happy for you and everyone who beats social anxiety. You are my idols!
That said, I don't like it when someone says "yeah just do it, it's possible". It's not possible to just do it. Yeah only doing the thing is doing the thing and preparing to do it is not doing the thing, I get it. On the other hand, you can also jump off a cliff without checking your parachute, just saying.
Look at a flyer on the wall, or your beverage if you’re in a bar, and they’ll follow up if they want to talk and appreciate the reduced pressure either way.
And yeah, never open a conversation with something like “can I ask you a question?” which is usually a trick of a salesperson or beggar to make you acknowledge them and start saying yes.
New Yorkers have a reputation for being stone cold with strangers, but the truth is that anytime somebody approaches you out of the blue, there's an assumption that they're about to ask for money or try to get in your pants. Once you demonstrate you're not looking for either (or, if the second I suppose, that you're at least smooth enough for it not to be immediately evident), people are generally really kind. With some exceptions, I've usually found that the coldest looking person will stop to give a lost tourist directions if it's clear they're in need.
But unfortunately it's in America so I'm not going there until you have some sane leaders again :(
>Just don’t make things a big deal
That sadly doesn't stop the runmors from flowing. That's the real damning thing about such social faux pas. Your reputation can be ruined without having a single person say it to your face. That's both unsettling and morbid for how you look to humanity.
I would assume that before that happens your natural death would come first.
I mentioned attractiveness because when I dress up nice and lose weight, it's a wildly different world. When that isn't the case I'd say at least 60% of my interactions with people is negative. Out of that I'd say maybe 2% is extreme enough to be considered violence in my view.
I'll say this though, I didn't mean we should avoid interaction or being nice to each other in the off chance people are unpleasant or unkind. I'm just saying, don't go into it with that expectation unless you're pleasant to look at yourself.
Some people, especially as they grow old (and especially women unfortunately), see a remarkable decline in how they're treated, and that in turn causes them to be jaded towards people. If you don't tie how people respond to you to how you treat them to begin with (It's huge struggle for me, not preaching here), it's less of a bitter pill.
The fear of crime is more socially harmful than crime itself, net.
A hundred years ago, folks in the US trusted their neighbors more, despite violent crime being more likely than today. The US is objectively safer now, but, ironically, people are more afraid than ever of talking with strangers, and more distrustful of their neighbors.
If folks back then could chat with a stranger without being gripped by paranoia, I think we can do it today. Don’t let the media scare you from living life. Have chit-chat. Have fun!
The solution is not to pretend people's experiences are invalid, or that somehow reducing the risk of harm is wrong, but to find ways to adapt, and be prepared to handle or dismiss negative interactions, as well as value the benefits of positive ones.
I think the default is sociability too, but for reasons it does seem to be on the retreat.
> Would you be bothered
>basically anywhere there are other people,
Seems like a perfectly legitimate prerogative to me anyway. Actually more "popular" than ever from some of the comments.
>They just can't understand that people wouldn't want to talk to them.
This however does not follow completely logically.
More like "They just can't realize that of all the people who would want to talk to them, you aren't one of them."
No harm done regardless.
I’m also never going to be rude about it — unless you are first. Just pick up on the obvious hints that I’m not super into talking.
Yes. If I am basically anywhere there are other people, I am there for a specific reason, and anyone trying to talk to me for anything else is bothering me. I've found that most people that try to start conversations with strangers are really poor at reading signals that their actions are unwanted and they only stop when you say something so out of their comfort zone they have no idea how to handle it. They just can't understand that people wouldn't want to talk to them.
And after this article and thread, we can add I don't want to be your practice dummy to the reasons you're bothering me.
You are bothering me trying to talk to me when I am out, because I am only out to do things specifically. Just because I am currently doing something (waiting) that you deem unimportant or an indicator I am free does not make it so.
and leans to more liberal views
somehow reducing the risk of harm is wrong
I won't comment further.
The reality is that most people are too busy thinking about themselves to spend any time thinking about you or a random little interaction that didn’t land
I was fortunate to come to this realization in my 20s and wish I had realized it so much sooner. The vast majority of people are only thinking about themselves the vast majority of the time. This means the anxiousness we feel about what we think other people think about us is mostly made up in our heads.
There's probably something to be said about this world being largely built for extroverts and needing to be able to be at least somewhat like that to succeed. Sometimes good opportunities are just a matter of showing up and being sociable, and being good at it.
If you're gonna have to do it, might as well get better at it and get at least somewhat used/desensitized to it. A part of it is also about picking up on social cues, making others comfortable around you and establishing relationships - like those anecdotes about someone who has a really good CV not being able to compete to someone who knows someone at the company, but obviously not just in the professional world.
I don't necessarily like that it's the way it is and have missed out on A LOT of opportunities due to being quite introverted but oh well.
Having grown up in Germany i was surprised how many people in the US would strike up a conversation randomly in the street with me - I thought it’s a normal thing and never really experienced it in Germany - there I would always be suspicious that people try to scam me or get money or something.
I do agree with GP that in Latin America it’s super common and normal to chat with everyone.
But there are many levels to this - it’s for example less common in Nordic countries at least in my experience but you can speak to people in every place on earth, it’s something universal.
Not as much as in some other places in the world, but it is not at all rare.
we push away chatty strangers in the United States
Seattle is the worst. They call it the "seattle freeze." The San Francisco Bay Area became almost as bad in covid.
The south is still friendly. Austin is incredibly friendly with strangers. Miami has strong stranger vibe. NYC is still alive, too.
If nothing else, the nerves and flashbulb memories overwrite old nerves and flashbulb memories.
I've experienced a lot of cultures, countries, and environments. The United States is KNOWN for being a friendly country of people who will talk to you and smile at you for "no reason" other than because Americans are friendly.
Go to many countries in Europe or even Russia, you'll experience the exact oppositive. If you smile at people or talk to a stranger, you will essentially be treated as if something is wrong with you.
Everyone knows this is true about the US. Your comment is clearly trying to portray the United States in a negative light with something that is entirely not true.
And then there's my experience: someone who has lived in the US for over 30+ years.
On the guy side, they usually seem too preoccupied to talk, or are moving with friends/family where interjecting as a stranger would be weird (because you either need to address the group or else you seem like you're attempting to break them off into a conversation away from that group). Though I'll give that the "too preoccupied" is sometimes merely an affect hiding, "This loser has nothing to offer me."
On the bus/train, even when it breaks down and we have to wait nearly an hour for it to start moving again, I've seen carriages full of people not speaking a word to each other (except people now think it's ok to speak on their phones, to my great annoyance).
When someone occasionally engages, I extremely quickly dismiss them in the most polite, but firm, way possible. I also intentionally keep a demeanor that generally signals I’m not open to random conversations (I avoid eye contact etc.), but that often doesn’t work. At the gym it is particularly problematic, I’m focusing on gathering strength for my next set and sometimes people bother you even if I am wearing headphones.
I truly do not have a problem with who I am, I’m comfortable in my shoes.
As such, never in a million years I would approach a stranger to strike up a conversation, it would seem an incredibly rude thing to do towards them, on top of clearly not having any desire to engage from my side.
I’ll talk for hours straight to my wife, close family and the very few friends I have though!
And I think that's the answer; people who don't want to talk will simply tell you! And everyone carries on.
Obviously you should not bother people, but even in random encounters many people absolutely loves to talk. In many you can see their eyes light up if you talk to them of ask them a question. The internet has us so conditioned to believing that people just want to be left alone that we miss out on a ton of wonderful human interaction.
We honestly can't keep both talking about a loneliness epidemic and at the same time push the narrative "don't talk to me ever". We should absolutely respect e.g. people on the autism spectre or anxiety and their issues with talking to strangers, but I feel like we're allowing them to dictate a mode of interaction, or avoidance thereof, which isn't healthy for the rest of us.
It's one thing to not want it and to be comfortable not wanting it, but viewing it as rude goes way beyond that and is not rational.
I am bothered by random people wanting to talk to me -> Randomly talking to other people would bother them -> Bothering people is rude -> Randomly talking to people is rude.
Hence why the platinum rule is better. Once you know that other people (apparently!) aren't bothered by randomly striking up a conversation, you can adjust your actions accordingly.
No, that rule does not say "it is rude for others to do unto you differently from how you would do unto them"--it's about how you should behave toward others, not a justification for your negative judgment of how others behave toward you.
I agree that the platinum rule is better, but that difference is not the problem here.
If I didn't have that information (and people used the golden rule consistently and weren't just knobheads), then I would be consistently annoyed at people not following the golden rule. As long as my theory of mind doesn't include 'other people generally enjoy random conversations', my perception would be that the golden rule is consistently broken by people striking up random conversations.