How important was the Battle of Hastings?(historytoday.com) |
How important was the Battle of Hastings?(historytoday.com) |
"Hastings was one of those battles which changed the course of history, most directly for England but also, as events turned out, for Britain and for France... In terms of its consequences, Hastings must be the most important battle ever to have been fought in England... the consequences of its outcome changed the course of English history definitively."
Nearly a thousand years of interbreeding insures that the genes have been well and truly intermixed by now. I have no idea if my ancestors were orginally saxon, norman or something else. And I expect that it true of 99% of other people in the UK.
Britain's ownership inequality is probably more a result of the tradition of primogeniture where aristocratic land holdings remained concentrated whereas in France they were subdivided on inheritance.
I blame Britain's tiny homes on our early industrialisation creating terraced houses which have subsequently been difficult to redevelop at higher density. Other countries seem to have skipped that and instead built tenements that eventually turned into flats at a much higher floor area per land area.
This article might exist just for this joke in the sub-headline. Pretty good.
"1066 and all that" is a highly influential satirical history book from 1930, and "[X] and all that" a meme/idiom in UK English.
Embarassingly for me, while the book advertises that it contains '2 genuine dates', 1066 is the only one I can remember.
So in comparison to other places that did not have such a wholesale aristocracy replacement, this really cemented the class divide. No longer was the aristocracy 'like you but richer/more powerful', but quite different - different language, customs etc.
1066 was the last successful invasion of the British mainland, so, aside from the odd civil war, no sweeping 'cataclysm' occurred to shake things up. We didn't even have a revolution like the French, instead a gradual (over centuries!) transition to our current democratic system, with a constitutional monarchy (itself a remnant of the old ruling system).
What if Harold had won?
And given William's subsequent Harrying of the North, I don't think that Harald would be able to hold on to it very long. He was intent on taking over the whole thing, and he had a much stronger force coming over the English Channel than over the North Sea.
Of course we can never really tell. I could spin a million other possible outcomes. But in this case, William really did have an overwhelming force. Godwinson had a home-field advantage, and might have won if he hadn't exhausted his force just getting there. The Vikings weren't going to fare better.
(Hyperbole obviously, before people reply to say they went to Hastings Secondary and have never heard of William the Conqueor.)
If William the Conqueor had been on the English side at the Battle of Hastings then the English would have one because their warning horns would have been top notch, everybody says so.
Ihttps://www.michaellivingston.com/non-fiction/1066-a-guide-t...
You can replace this statement with French language and it's still be true:
French "language" then took root through England and English "language" began to change in various ways.
Fun facts, about one-third of modern English language are actually made up from French words and vocabulary.
I remember reading one posted announcement notice at a French university, and surprisingly understood most of the contents of the notice although it's written in French and I cannot speak French.
However, if I don't read the notice but relies on French to verbally reading the notice to me, I'd not understand the contents.
Apparently most of the working and professional words in English were taken from French (this made up most of the loan words from French to English). Thus the notice is easily understandable by reading it if you know English language since the notice is in professional setting (i.e university).
It is pretty obvious that single battles hardly determine long war outcomes, but it's a pretty attractive idea that a kingdom can be lost for want of a nail and all that.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifteen_Decisive_Battles_o...
Here's an interesting excerpt from the Siege of Orleans though:
the struggle by which the unconscious heroine of France, in the beginning of the fifteenth century, rescued her country from becoming a second Ireland under the yoke of the triumphant English.
That's quite a statement from a 19thC English man.
In WWI, for example, if Germany had won the battle of the Marne, they would have captured Paris in 1914 and likely (eventually) have won the war.
Tom Hastings
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEbAHi3fZpuHgn-UBsGwiSiMI...
The main outcome of a war is loss of lives and infrastructure. Political changes are minor; maybe they will start teaching the language of the invader in schools as an elective... Maybe restaurants will get new foods added to the menu. Maybe taxes will go up a little... A bit more immigration from that country... Money will go to a different set of politicians.
But if you want a modern proof; look at Iraq and Afghanistan... Under US occupation for many years. They have the same people, same language, same culture, same everything as before... It's like they never lost any battles. Look at Germany after they lost WW2; they still speak German. Their cultural identity is still very strong; maybe it affected their foreign policy a little but apart from that, it's hard to tell.
War is truly useless except for those selling weapons and for a couple of big companies that are trying to acquire some mineral resources or securing some trade routes. There's really no other purpose.
My ancestors are from a country which (during the French revolution) had voluntarily changed 'ownership' from France to Britain and later back to France again. They still speak French. Nothing changed, at all, except for the fact that the elites conveniently avoided the Guillotine... Fast forward 300 years and you can't tell any cultural or economic difference at all from the other neighboring nations which remained under France and had experienced the Guillotine; same GDP numbers, same culture, same everything.
Anglo-Saxons like to make fun of the French for surrendering easily but as a regular citizen, it actually makes logical sense. I think it just shows that the government is better aligned with the interests of the people.
Strategic surrender is smart; if you know ahead of time which force is most powerful and can evaluate it objectively, you can save yourself the trouble of dying and you end up with a better outcome than you would have otherwise. It's risk management.
Of course, the Swiss are even smarter for staying neutral but France is too big to take a neutral stance (and they can actually drive outcomes) so they take one stance and then back-peddle if the tide turns.
And France does something else really smart which is; they embrace internal opposition; so if the tides turn, they allow the opposing elite take control without any fighting and it looks like France was always on the winning side.
Almost nobody recalls this, but during WW2, France was actually on the German side; president Philippe Pétain allowed the Germans in. But then later General De Gaulle pushed back when it looked like there was a good chance to turn the war around. And now everyone thinks France was always part of the allied forces.
French people hacked politics. I think now Americans are now also doing something similar. This is why the country is divided IMO and it's smart. Internal division is the cost of guaranteed victory.
It works so long as the population is politically flexible and only focus on what's important to them. If people don't mind changing religion or language or some laws, then it really doesn't matter who wins the war. If the enemy doesn't have clear objectives for a war, then the loser of the war can still control the outcome.
How did Germany's defeat actually negatively affect things for the people in the long run?
One of my ancestors (French side) had to close their business because they made the decision to keep paying for employee wages during the war while their business was forcibly put on hold by the French government... Winning the war didn't mean much to them... Mercedes people who made the German war machines were filling their pockets throughout the entire war. Didn't even negatively affect their reputation!
What happened to normal people is very different.
The people who won are those who looked out only for their own interests! It doesn't matter what side they were on.
There certainly were a lot of minor "elite" wars in Europe where power shifted back and forth across the aristocracy with no real difference to daily life. WW2 was not one of them. Nor, historically, was the Thirty Years War.
OP may be confused by the American colonial wars since Korea. Korea is the last one where you can see the difference in outcomes for the population.
Name a more dramatic overnight cultural shift in all of human history than nazi to post war germany.
I think the Jews in France in 1939 would have wished their government put up a better fight and had better generals who actually used the radio.
Also, the statement that France was on the German side is not true. The Germans conquered most of France in the first part of the war and installed a puppet regime that was loyal to them. This does not mean France was on the side of Germany, it means the Vichy puppet regime was.
You clearly know a decent amount about history, yet your analysis is so starkly wrong it appears you have an agenda.
According to Claude, Petain was installed after France's defeat; that's true, but Vichy France was already considered collaborationist with Nazi Germany at the time. Many public figures were pro-nazi such as Coco Chanel.
It's kind of insane actually that seemingly many of the big companies which supported the Nazis are still in business and actually grew and became synonymous with luxury after the war; Chanel, Hugo Boss, Mercedes Benz...
You'd think it would be bad for reputation; but reputation is the bread and butter of these companies today!
What better way to illustrate just how wrong the masses are when it comes to war? Clearly what we were taught is wrong! It doesn't align with economic reality!
Doesn't this corroborate my point that who wins the war doesn't matter?
This is a trick of definition. There were a few places that spoke German before the war and don't now, but they aren't part of Germany today.
What a comically bad take. I am looking at Germany and it is very easy to tell. Then go back a generation and look at what WWI did to Germany.
>Strategic surrender is smart; if you know ahead of time which force is most powerful and can evaluate it objectively, you can save yourself the trouble of dying and you end up with a better outcome than you would have otherwise. It's risk management.
France didn't particularly surrender early. WW2 France surrendered because they were fucked and didn't have a choice; if they hadn't surrendered when they did, they would have been slaughtered and then their replacements would surrender just the same.
Russia would have done the same (and in fact, Ukraine tried to switch sides, especially with the Holomodor in such recent memory), but the Nazis were not pragmatic about permitting 'subhumans' to live.
What a rubbish point you're pushing. Millions and millions died or were exterminated. Countless fled or were forcefully displaced. The country was occupied and then split apart, the effects of the DDR can be felt to this day. The collective shame will outlast any generation alive today.
Many institutions survived, yes, as they often do. But everything else was a nightmare that echoes to this day.
Do you not believe the holocaust happened?
I seriously can't comprehend how anybody can say that the outcome of WWII didn't matter. For some wars, especially European wars before Napoleon, this is true. For WWII, I think there's a case to be made that no war in history has been more influential.
Your metric for what constitutes change is flawed. You can't say just because companies still exist and people still speak German that WWII doesn't matter. Seriously, take as step back and look at Germany before and after the war at all points. It's a completely different country that has fostered a people with completely different values.
Do you think Angela Merkel would have allowed so many refugees in if WWII never happened?
Do you and the GP really not know anything about how William/Guillame's victory tranformed England, for everyone? The very language we're writing in at this very moment is a direct consequence of that victory.
Most people lives were unaffected; most people kept their language, their traditions etc. For contrast, compare with: the third Punic war, setting foot on America in 1493, the industrial revolutions...
Some of us have just decided that's where we draw the line: An event that is important enough to wipe out and replace the whole ruling class but that does not change, one way or another, the way people live, is not "important".
It is true that in the immediate aftermath of Hastings, life for most folks continued on largely as it had before.
But in the longer term both the administrative structure of the country (which very much affected individual folks' lives) and the language were significantly changed.
I don't see a reason to privilege one of these over the other. You could make the case, for example, that WWII was of little consequence because Germans today live much the same sort of life that they'd have been living if there had been no WWII. That's not clearly a false claim about people's lives, but it doesn't really serve the purpose of understanding the consequences of war very well.