Hypothesis, Antithesis, synthesis(antithesis.com) |
Hypothesis, Antithesis, synthesis(antithesis.com) |
I spent a little time looking at Hegel last week and it wasn't quite clear to me how I'd go about having something like a canonical generator for a type (similar to proptest's Arbitrary). I've found that to be very helpful while generating large structures to test something like serialization roundtripping against — in particular, the test-strategy library has derive macros that work very well for business logic types with, say, 10-15 enum variants each of which may have 0-10 subfields. I'm curious if that is supported today, or if you have plans to support this kind of composition in the future.
edit: oh I completely missed the macro to derive DefaultGenerator! Whoops
This is one of the areas we've dogfooded the least, so we'd definitely be happy to get feedback on any sharp corners here!
I think `from_type` is one of Hypothesis's most powerful and ergonomic strategies, and that while we probably can't get quite to that level in rust, we can still get something that's pretty great.
Otherwise: Congratulations on the QuickCheck-style testing in Rust. At work, I’m always surprised that property-based testing is so little known and so rarely used outside of functional programming.
Looks like the mods deleted the last long thread about this, so best not to relitigate, but short version: Yes, we know. We liked the name and thought it was funny so we kept it.
> Otherwise: Congratulations on the QuickCheck-style testing in Rust. At work, I’m always surprised that property-based testing is so little known and so rarely used outside of functional programming.
Actually, it's Hypothesis-style testing in Rust. There was already QuickCheck style.
Property-based testing is in fact far more widely used in Python than in functional programming (probably not as a percentage of users, but in terms of raw numbers), which I'm always surprised that the functional programming community seems mostly unaware of.
It is funny, and I really like the reference.
> ... , which I'm always surprised that the functional programming community seems mostly unaware of.
Oh, I should have clicked on the Hypothesis link in the first paragraph. Thanks for pointing that out!
Edit: And it makes me smile that there was a long thread about it.
There's no doubt, I think, testing will remain important and possibly become more important with more AI use, and so better testing is helpful, PBT included. But the problem remains verifying that the tests actually test what they're supposed to. Mutation tests can allow agents to get good coverage with little human intervention, and PBT can make tests better and more readable. But still, people have to read them and understand them, and I suspect that many people who claim to generate thousands of LOC per day don't.
And even if the tests were great and people carefully reviewed them, that's not enough to make sure things don't go terribly wrong. Anthropic's C compiler experiment didn't fail because of bad testing. Not only were the tests good, it took humans years to write the tests by hand, and the agents still failed to converge.
I think good tests are a necessary condition for AI not generating terrible software, but we're clearly not yet at a point where they're a sufficient one. So "a huge part" - possibly, but there are other huge parts still missing.
If you run your Hegel tests in Antithesis, you get this for free (along with various sorts of “non-local” assertions, perfect reproducibility even for concurrent or distributed code, etc.).
But yeah, not hard to hack together basic coverage guidance outside Antithesis. That works well for large classes of programs, just not a majority of them.
But it's still a "blind" fuzzer and it would be nice to write one that gets feedback from code coverage somehow. Instead, you have to run code coverage yourself and figure out how to change test data generation to improve it.
There have been simplistic attempts at this, e.g. instead of performing 100 tests, just keep going as long as coverage increases.
The Choice Gradient Sampling algorithm from https://arxiv.org/pdf/2203.00652 feels like a nice way to steer generators in a more nuanced way. That paper uses it to avoid discards when rejection-sampling; but I have a feeling it could be repurposed to "reward" based on new coverage instead/as-well.
I've talked with lots of people in the PBT world who have always seen something like this as the end goal of the PBT ecosystem. It seemed like a thing that would happen eventually, someone just had to do it. I'm super excited to actually be doing it and bringing great PBT to every and any language.
It doesn't hurt that this is coming right as great PBT in every language is suddenly a lot more important thanks to AI code!
I think right now if you're a happy proptest user it's probably not clear that you should switch to Hegel. I'd love to hear about people trying, but I can't hand on my heart say that it's clearly the correct thing for you to do given its early state, even though I believe it will eventually be.
But roughly the things that I think are clearly better about the Hegel approach and why it might be worth trying Hegel if you're starting greenfield are:
* Much better generator language than proptest (I really dislike proptest's choices here. This is partly personal aesthetic preferences, but I do think the explicitly constructed generators work better as an approach and I think this has been borne out in Hypothesis). Hegel has a lot of flexible tooling for generating the data you want.
* Hegel gets you great shrinking out of the box which always respects the validity requirements of your data. If you've written a generator to always ensure something is true, that should also be true of your shrunk data. This is... only kindof true in proptest at best. It's not got quite as many footguns in this space as original quickcheck and its purely type-based shrinking, but you will often end up having to make a choice between shrinking that produces good results and shrinking that you're sure will give you valid data.
* Hegel's test replay is much better than seed saving. If you have a failing test and you rerun it, it will almost immediately fail again in exactly the same way. With approaches that don't use the Hypothesis model, the best you can hope for is to save a random seed, then rerun shrinking from that failing example, which is a lot slower.
There are probably a bunch of other quality of life improvements, but these are the things that have stood out to me when I've used proptest, and are in general the big contrast between the Hypothesis model and the more classic QuickCheck-derived ones.
PBT is for sure the future - which is apparently now? 10 years ago when I was talking about QuickCheck [0] all the JS and Ruby programmers in my city just looked at me like I had two heads.
[0] https://github.com/ryandv/chesskell/blob/master/test/Test/Ch...
10 years ago might have been a little early (Hypothesis 1.0 came out 11 years ago this coming Thursday), but we had pretty wide adoption by year two and it's only been growing. It's just that the other languages have all lagged behind.
It's by no means universally adopted, but it's not a weird rare thing that nobody has heard of.
IIRC there are fuzz testers that will analyze the branches of the code to look for edge cases that might break it -- that seems like something that would be wonderful to have in a property tester, but it also seems very difficult to do, especially in a language agnostic way.
How long does it take to find breaking cases like "0/0" or "ß"? Do they pop up immediately, or does it only happen after hundreds or thousands of runs?
I think all the examples I had in the post are typically found in the first 100 test cases and reliably found in the first 1000, but I wouldn't swear that that's the case without double checking.
We don't do any coverage-guidance in Hegel or Hypothesis, because for unit testing style workflows it's rarely worth it - it's very hard to do good coverage guidance in under like... 10k test runs at a minimum, 100k is more likely. You don't have enough time to get really good at exploring the state space, and you haven't hit the point where pure random testing has exhausted itself enough that you have to do something smarter to win.
It's been a long-standing desire of mine to figure out a way to use coverage to do better even on short runs, and there are some kinda neat things you can do with it, but we've not found anything really compelling.
* Hypothesis/Hegel are very much focused on using test assertions rather than a single property that can be true or false. This naturally drives a style that is much more like "normal" testing, but also has the advantage that you can distinguish between different types of failing test. We don't go too hard on this, but both Hegel and Hypothesis will report multiple distinct failures if your test can fail in multiple ways.
* Hegelothesis's data generation and how it interacts with testing is much more flexible and basically fully imperative. You can basically generate whatever data you like wherever in your test you like, freely interleaving data generation and test execution.
* QuickCheck is very much type-first and explicit generators as an afterthought. I think this is mostly a mistake even in Haskell, but in languages where "just wrap your thing in a newtype and define a custom implementation for it" will get you a "did you just tell me to go fuck myself?" response, it's a nonstarter. Hygel is generator first, and you can get the default generator for a type if you want but it's mostly a convenience function with the assumption that you're going to want a real generator specification at some point soon.
From an implementation point of view, and what enables the big conveniences, Hypothesis has a uniform underlying representation of test cases and does all its operations on them. This means you get:
* Test caching (if you rerun a failing test, it will immediately fail in the same way with the previously shrunk example)
* Validity guarantees on shrinking (your shrunk test case will always be ones your generators could have produced. It's a huge footgun in QuickCheck that you can shrink to an invalid test case)
* Automatically improving the quality of your generators, never having to write your own shrinkers, and a whole bunch of other quality of life improvements that the universal representation lets us implement once and users don't have to care about.
The validity thing in particular is a huge pain point for a lot of users of PBT, and is what drove a lot of the core Hypothesis model to make sure that this problem could never happen.
The test caching is because I personally hated rerunning tests and not knowing whether it was just a coincidence that they were passing this time or that the test case had changed.
My personal hope is that we can port most of the Hypothesis test suite to hegel-rust, then point Claude at all the relevant code and tell it to write us a hegel-core in rust with that as its test harness. Liam thinks this isn't going to work, I think it's like... 90% likely to get us close enough to working that we can carry it over the finish line. It's not a small project though. There are a lot of fiddly bits in Hypothesis, and the last time I tried to get Claude to port it to Rust the result was better than I expected but still not good enough to use.
A little while after that, I spoke to someone in the pharma-adjacent-space who was looking at Antithesis to validate their product. At the time, Antithesis (the company) told him that it was a bad fit. I suggested something akin to my previous approach (which did not include antithesis). No clue what they ended up doing, but it is nice to see that Hypothesis and Antithesis have finally joined forces.
I think there is some hazard in assuming that what agents fail at today they will continue to fail on in the future.
What I mean is, if we take the optimistic view of agents continuing to improve on the trajectory they have started at for one or two years, then it is worth while considering what tools and infrastructure we will need for them. Companies that start to build that now for the future they assume is coming are going to be better positioned than people who wake up to a new reality in two years.
I think there is some hazard in assuming a seemingly exponential curve has no asymptotes, otherwise known as faith.
Given Curry-Howard isomorphism, couldn't we ask AI to directly prove the property of the binary executable under the assumption of the HW model, instead of running PBTs?
By no means I want to dismiss PBTs - but it seems that this could be both faster and more reliable.
For example, if memory use isn't modelled, it won't tell you how big the input can be before the system runs out of memory. Similarly, if your database isn't modelled then you need to test with a real database. Web apps need to test with a real web browser sometimes, rather than a simplified model of one. Databases and web browsers are too complicated to build a full-fidelity mathematical model for.
When testing with real systems there's often the issue that the user's system is different from the one you use to test. You can test with recent versions of Chrome and Firefox, etc, which helps a lot, but what about extensions?
Nothing covers everything, but property tests and fuzzers actually run the code in some test environment. That's going to find different issues than proofs will.
Yes, in principle. Given unlimited time and a plentiful supply of unicorns.
Otherwise, no. It is well beyond the state of the art in formal proofs for the general case, and it doesn't become possible just because we "ask AI".
And unless you provide a formal specification of the entire set of behavior, it's still not much better than PBT -- the program is still free to do whatever the heck it wants that doesn't violate the properties formally specified.
Definitely. It's a lot harder to fake this with PBT than with example-based testing, but you can still write bad property-based tests and agents are pretty good at doing so.
I have generally found that agents with property-based tests are much better at not lying to themselves about it than agents with just example-based testing, but I still spend a lot of time yelling at Claude.
> So "a huge part" - possibly, but there are other huge parts still missing.
No argument here. We're not claiming to solve agentic coding. We're just testing people doing testing things, and we think that good testing tools are extra important in an agentic world.
I also observed the cheating to increase. I recently tried to do a specific optimization on a big complex function. Wrote a PBT that checks that the original function returns the same values as the optimized function on all inputs. I also tracked the runtime to confirm that performance improved. Then I let Claude loose. The PBT was great at spotting edge cases but eventually Claude always started cheating: it modified the test, it modified the original function, it implemented other (easier) optimizations, ...
Yeah, I know. Just an opportunity to talk about some of the delusions we're hearing from the "CEO class". Keep up the good work!
That angle is legibility. How do you know your AI-written slop software is doing the right thing? One would normally read all the code. Bad news: that's not much less labor intensive as not using AI at all.
But, if one has comprehensive property-based tests, they can instead read only the property-based tests to convince themselves the software is doing the right thing.
By analogy: one doesn't need to see the machine-checked proof to know the claim is correct. One only needs to check the theorem statement is saying the right thing.
My point isn't so much about PBT, but about how we don't yet know just how much agents help write real software (and how to get the most help from them).
[1]: I'm only using that number because Garry Tan, CEO of YC, claimed to generate 10K lines of text per day that he believes to be working code and developers working with AI agents know they can't be.
Will: "Apparently Hegel actually hated the whole Hegelian dialectic and it's falsely attributed to him."
Me: "Oh, hm. But the name is funny and I'm attached to it now. How much of a problem is that?"
Will: "Well someone will definitely complain about it on hacker news."
Me: "That's true. Is that a problem?"
Will: "No, probably not."
(Which is to say: You're entirely right. But we thought the name was funny so we kept it. Sorry for the philosophical inaccuracy)
One of the evilest tricks in marketing to developers is to ensure your post contains one small inaccuracy so somebody gets nerdsniped... not that I have ever done that.
I believe (unless my memory is broken) they get into this a bunch in Ep 15 of my favourite podcast "What's Left Of Philosophy": https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/15-what-is-dialectics-...
Also if you're not being complained about on HN, are you even really nerd-ing?
The necessity thing is the big thing - why unfold in this way and not some other way. Because the premises in which you set up your argument can lead to extreme distortions, even if you think you're being "charitable" or whatever. Descartes introduced mind-body dualisms with the method of pure doubt, which at a first glance seemingly is a legitimate angle of attack.
Unfortunately that's about as nuanced as I know. Importantly this excludes out a wide amount of "any conflict that ends in a resolution validates Hegel" kind of sophistry.
This is not quite accurate. Kant says very explicitly in the (rarely studied) Transcendental Doctrine of Method (Ch 1 Section 4, A789/B817) that this kind of proof method (he calls it "apagogic") is unsuitable to transcendental proofs.
You might be thinking of the much more well studied Antinomies of Pure Reason, in which he uses this kind of proof negatively (which is to say, the circumscribe the limits of reason) as part of his proof against the way the metaphysical arguments from philosophers of his time (which he called "dogmatic" use of reason) about the nature of the cosmos were posed.
The method he used in his Deduction is a transcendental argument, which is typically expressed using two things, X and Y. X is problematic (can be true but not necessarily so), and Y is dependent on X. So then if Y is true, then X must necessarily be true as well.
Statistics wasn’t really quite mature enough to be applied to let’s say political economy a.k.a. economics which is what Hegel was working in.
JB Say (1) was the leading mind in statistics at the time but wasn’t as popular in political circles (Notably Proudhon used Says work as epistemology versus Hegel and Marx)
I’ve been in serious philosophy courses where they take the dialectic literally and it is the epistemological source of reasoning so it’s not gone
This is especially true in how marx expanded into dialectical materialism - he got stuck on the process as the right epistemological approach, and marxists still love the dialectic and Hegelian roots (zizek is the biggest one here).
The dialectic eventually fell due to robust numerical methods and is a degenerate version version of the sampling Markov Process which is really the best in class for epistemological grounding.
Someone posted this here years ago and I always thought it was a good visual: https://observablehq.com/@mikaelau/complete-system-of-philos...
As Liam says, the derive generator is not very well dogfooded at present. The claude skill is a bit better, but we've only been through a few iterations of using it and getting Claude to improve it, and porting from proptest is one of the less well tested areas (because we don't use proptest much ourselves).
I expect all of this works, but I'd like to know ways that it works less well than it could. Or, you know, to bask in the glow of praise of it working perfectly if that turns out to be an option.
Hmm now that you mention it we should add some instructions not to do that in the hegel-skill, though oddly I've not seen it doing it so far.
My guess is that you wouldn't have had a better time without PBT here and it would still have either cheated or claimed victory incorrectly, but definitely agreed that PBT can't fully fix the problem, especially if it's PBT that the agent is allowed to modify. I've still anecdotally found that the results are better than without it because even if agents will often cheat when problems are pointed out, they'll definitely cheat if problems aren't pointed out.
I'm just pointing out "we don't need this right now" isn't necessarily an argument against "we don't need this".
There is a saying that isn't perfect but may apply: better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it.
Here is another way of looking at it. Let's say agents don't meet the hyped up expectations and we build all of this robust tooling for nothing. So we have all of this work towards creating autonomous testing systems but we don't have the autonomous agents. That still seems like a decent outcome.
When we plan around optimistic views of the future, we tend to build generally useful things.
I guess it would be more accurate to state Kants actual premises here as making the distinction between appearance and thing-in-itself rather than the deduction, but the deduction technique itself was fascinating when I first learned it so that's what I associate most with Kant lol.
I guess I have not thought critically why we couldn't use a Transcendental argument to support Descartes. I just treated it as a vague category error (to be fair I don't actually know Descartes philosophy that well, even less than I know Kants lol). Could be a fun exercise when I have time.
The previous section within the Transcendental Dialectic that focuses on the nature of the soul goes into a refutation of Descartes' statement. Kant basically finds "I think therefore I am" to be a tautology that only works by equivocating the "I" in each clause. "I think" pretends that the "I" there is an object in the world which it then compares to the "I am" which is an object in the world. Kant argues that "I think" does not actually demonstrate an "I" that is an object but rather a redundant qualification of thinking.
I am being a bit imprecise, so here is SEP's summary:
>For in each case, Kant thinks that a feature of self-consciousness (the essentially subjectival, unitary and identical nature of the “I” of apperception) gets transmuted into a metaphysics of a self (as an object) that is ostensibly “known” through reason alone to be substantial, simple, identical, etc. This slide from the “I” of apperception to the constitution of an object (the soul) has received considerable attention in the secondary literature, and has fueled a great deal of attention to the Kantian theory of mind and mental activity.
>The claim that the ‘I’ of apperception yields no object of knowledge (for it is not itself an object, but only the “vehicle” for any representation of objectivity as such) is fundamental to Kant’s critique of rational psychology.
[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-metaphysics/#SouRatP...
I disagree - thanks to Curry-Howard isomorphism, the full-fidelity mathematical model of a database or web browser are their binaries themselves.
We could have compilers provide theorems (with proof) of correctness of the translation from source to machine code, and library functions could provide useful theorems about the resource use.
Then, if the AI can reason about the behavior of the source code, it can also build the required proof of correctness along with it.
So I'm skeptical that the code we write in ordinary programming languages proves anything interesting. Why do you think that?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but Curry-Howard is a mapping between mathematical jargon and programming jargon, where e.g. "this is a proof of that proposition using foo logic" maps to "this program has that type in programming language foo".
I don't see how that makes "binaries" a "full-fidelity mathematical model": compilation is (according to Curry-Howard) translating a proof from one system of logic to another. For a binary, the resulting system of logic is machine code, which is an absolutely terrible logic: it has essentially one type (the machine word), which makes every proposition trivial; according to Curry-Howard, your database binary is proof of the proposition corresponding to its type; since the type of every binary is just "some machine words", the proposition that your database binary is a "full-fledged mathematical model" of is essentially just "there exists a machine word". Not very useful; we could optimise it down to "0", which is also a proof that there exists a machine word.
If we assume that you want to prove something non-trivial, then the first thing you would need to do is abstract away from the trivial logic of machine code semantics, by inferring some specific structures and patterns from that binary, then developing some useful semantics which captures those patterns and structures. Then you can start to develop non-trivial logic on those semantics, which will let you state worthwhile propositions. If we apply the Curry-Howard lens to that process, it corresponds to... decompilation into a higher-level language!
tl;dr Curry-Howard tells us that binaries are literally the worst possible representation we could hope for.
Trump did this a lot with the legacy media in his first term. He would make inaccurate statements to the media on the topic he wanted to be in the spotlight, and the media would jump to "fact check" him. Guess what, now everyone is talking about illegal immigration, tariffs, or whatever subject Trump thought was to their advantage.
I think it’s worth again pointing out that Hegel was at the height of contemporary philosophy at the time but he wasn’t a mathematician and this is the key distinction.
Hagel lives in the pre-mathematical economics world. The continental philosophy world of words with Kant etc… and never crossed into the mathematical world. So I liking it too he was doing limited capabilities and tools that he had
Again compare this to the scientific process described by Francis Bacon. There are no remixes to that there’s just improvements.
Ultimately using the dialectic is trying to use an outdated technology for understanding human behavior
Interestingly, a lot of arguments and formulations Kant had were lifted from Leibniz and reframed with a less mathematical flavor. I remember in particular his argument against infinite regress was pretty much pound for pound just reciting some conjecture from Leibniz (without attribution)
It's no doubt that basically nobody could've predicted a priori 20th century mathematics and physics. Not too familiar with the physics side, but any modern philosopher who doesn't take computability seriously isn't worth their salt, for example. Not too familiar with statistics but I believe you that statistics and modern economic theories could disprove say, Marxism as he envisioned it.
That definitely doesn't mean that all those tools from back then are useless or even just misinformed IMO. I witness plenty of modern people (not you) being philosophically bankrupt when making claims.
The problem is, those more mathematically challenging frameworks are inaccessible to the majority of the people
so they don’t actually take off because there’s no mechanism to translate more rigor in social studies and social sciences in large part because humans reject the concept of being measured and experimeted with, which is understandable if not optimal
So as a function, applications of mathematics trended towards things that were not human focused and they were machine focused and financial focused
So the big transition happened after TV and Internet (really just low cost high reach advertising) became pervasive and social scientists began utilizing statistical methods across consumer and attention action as social science experimentation platforms
Social science moved from the squishy into the precise precisely to give companies a market advantage in capturing market share through manipulating human behavior
ultimately that was the wet dream of political philosophers since pahotep
Hegel is irrelevant in the age of measurement
But I've never thought critically (in a long time) about applying it back to social science / political philosophy. Mind discussing more about what you're reading and targeting? I've personally avoided a lot of studies in this area because I didn't think they were actually rigorous but I probably just don't know where to look.
They won't hold up to physics levels of rigor, of course - probably a bit more at the medical studies level of rigor.
David Card, Gary Becker, McFadden, etc.
Rigor is also... there's something about letting perfect be the enemy of the good.
If noone will apply math unless you can 100% reliably reproduce controlled experiments in a lab, the only thing left is people just talking about dialectics.
The challenge is how to get as much rigor as possible.
For instance, David Card saw New Jersey increase minimum wage. You generally can't truly conduct large-scale controlled social experiments, but he saw this as interesting.
He looked at the NJ/PA area around Philadelphia as a somewhat unified labor market, but half of it just had its minimum wage increased - which he looked at to study as a "natural" experiment, with PA as the control group and NJ as the experimental group, to investigate what happened to the labor market when the minimum wage increased. Having a major metro area split down the middle allowed for a lot of other concerns to be factored out, since the only difference was what side of the river you happened to be on.
He had lots of other studies looking at things like that, trying to find ways to get controlled-experiment like behavior where one can't necessarily do a true controlled experiment, but trying to get as close as possible, to be as rigorous as is possible.
Is that as ideal as a laboratory experiment? Hell no. But it's way closer than just arguing dialectics.
To be clear I don’t believe in consequentialism
He built what was called Fellicific calculus (iirc) that would allow you to more or less take measurement of decisions. It was a mess and it obviously doesn’t work but this is kind of the first serious attempt to bring mathematical rigour to political philosophy.
You could argue that the tao te ching teaching does this in the way that it’s utilized in the sense that you have a set of things that you measure to give you predictive capabilities, but that’s closer to mysticism and tarot card reading its worth acknowledging the input as it’s the basis for like half the human population.
I have my own perspective of this which I wrote out in a fairly lengthy document (General Theory of Cohesion) on my website if you wanna go read it. Warning it’s not particularly scruitable if you’re not already pretty deep into cybernetics and systems theory.
That’s bs. Even just the preface to Phenomenology of Spirit is chock full of ideas that folks would be better off if they contemplated. Hegel can be considered a visual thinker (or visionary) whose ideas don’t need “measurement”. If folks understand his thoughts on the master-slave dialectic, for example, they would have an idea as to why we have such incompetent leaders like trump. His thought suffers from the same problem of any thinker who tried to be systematic, but it is still worth being inspired by.
By that standard literally anything is valuable even as just an example of what not to do so it’s a meaningless measurement
You’re making a lot of pronouncements that are arbitrary to you
You may not have the time or inclination, but there is a lot to learn from studying Hegel and the history of philosophy. No ‘measurement’ is required.
There are structural limits to the Hegelian Dialectic being used as a universal epistemology
Marxism and other non-numerically based epistemology traditions refuse to accept this
The majority of people aren’t even as deep as hegel and yet even the hegelians still think they have a universal epistemology
when they have a keplerian version at best that hasn’t even heard of subatomic particles
You originally made the statement that "Hegel is irrelevant in the age of measurement", to which I objected. Unless you're going to back pedal further, you did find studying Hegel questionable.
I'm not going to go on the attack, but your pronouncements and self-certainty do not sound well considered.
For an ignorant uneducated person with absolutely no education thinking dialectically is an improvement
If you are a doctor or prime minister in 2026 you’re neglegent if your epistemological roots are based on a hegelian dialectic
But go off queen