What being ripped off taught me(belief.horse) |
What being ripped off taught me(belief.horse) |
Don't be a coward. Name and shame.
I hope this is a bug in my phone’s handling of something and not intentional. Until I know otherwise, I’m treating sites where this happens as deliberately hostile for the same reason as always: ads. I use reader mode to escape ads that my ad blockers miss but also to avoid poor design or hard to read fonts and the like. My response is the same as ever: I closed the article.
And is who they are relevant to the lesson (stealing time/effort is easy to get away with, you need to protect yourself from that)?
> I’ll happily tell you who they are - get in touch
HockeyStack, Greptile, Velt all had problems paying me and all required 7 day a week, overnight, etc.
After about a month of employment, I was told I was being rude to ask for payment. Apparently they neglected to tell me that they actually only pay their employees 60 to 70 days after they start.
Of course the first red flag was them doing the 1099 dance for slightly above minimum wage. I had been forced to do that before, but guess what. They paid us every single week.
Quiting without notice was one of the greatest feelings with these clowns. By this time they had started to ask me to literally work for free. "Unpaid training". They stopped scheduling me for paid hours anyway, so no notice needed.
Right after that I worked for some conservatives. They paid me early. My first year I got a large raise.
There were some awkward moments like the CEO telling me who to vote for. But for the most part it was awesome.
I still consider myself to be very liberal, but I don't want to work anywhere that does a lot of virtue signaling. Your beliefs don't make you a good person, your actions do.
Because, I’m sure multiple people here could tell similar stories with the political leanings of the groups involved reversed.
Corporations, can not. I've been though this twice. If they're doing press releases about how liberal they are, it's probably not a good fit.
Now that I'm old and jaded, I want politics out of my workplace.
I sued him, and won reclassification as well as two payments he never paid me, but both the state and IRS could care less that I’d been taken advantage of. They happily added their fees, interest and penalties for something I was the victim of. Years later, the debt resurfaced in the form of aggressive levies directly to my bank account after no contact for over 10 years and no collection activity. By then, the fees and interest were 3x what was “owed” to them. They actually told me it’s standard practice to wait until the debt grows and then collect on it. After so many years I didn’t even have the records from the lawsuit.
I learned that the government doesn’t care about you, especially if you’ve been scammed you have to be extra careful because that’s a signal to them you’re someone they can get even more money from. The process of disputing it will waste more of your time and mental health than it’s worth in all but the most extreme cases, and that is 100% by design.
Early/frequent payment terms are always good to have but you may not always have the leverage for it depending on where you’re at as a contractor.
Takes getting ripped off a times before insisting on better terms I guess. It’s like bombing your first job interview… you can prepare but it just needs to happen.
I get what the author is saying here. But it's a bad idea to treat one's work team with deep communal devotion in this way, as if they are a kind of dysfunctional family-- or, in the author's case, apparently higher in status than real family.
Doing this without proper remuneration creates a market distortion, and that is bad for capitalism.
Honestly, this seems to be bad advice from their recovery services. Suing is 100% recommended here. There are plenty of lawyers that will work on a pro rata basis for account recovery in California. Sure, you lose a portion of your 35k; but you get more than you would have letting them get away with paying zero.
There's also laws in place to keep companies from "closing up shop" and opening in a new entity. It doesn't necessarily erase your debt (it can, but only in rare circumstances). And, even if they do get around it, it keeps them from pulling the same shenanigans going forward, in the state.
A contract is an entrance ticket to a court case. If you can't afford to fight the court case, the contract isn't much use. If the other party aren't in a jurisdiction that the court can enforce in, the contract isn't much use. If the other party can just vanish and when you try to take them to court, the contract isn't much use.
A contract doesn't stop other people from doing things (or make them do things that they would otherwise not do). It just specifies that if they do those things (or don't do them) then you can take them to court. You still need to be able to take them to court for any of this to work.
Contracts aren't toilet paper. But they also aren't the magic solution to all problems that they are sometimes held up to be.
no it isn't. why you did not sue them? success rate of international arbitrage (New York Convention) proces into China is 90% success rate. USA/EU companies who sue Chineses companies in China for breach of contract seem to be winning rates. Enforcement of USA curt orders do not need to go thorugh Chinese courts again, and are enforced by local authorities (local sharks) with success rate of 80% for foreign firms suing chinese firms. fees are also fairly low. case is straightfoward.
if author went and sue, likely he would get his money back.
Because they could just dissolve the entity and get away with it. Did you even read the rest of the article?
That way your “discounted” rate is the rate they should have paid and they feel like they got a deal.
Nobody forced OP to work 11-14 hour days. Contracting 101 stipulates that you define your hours ahead of time. You come in, you provide your expertise, and you leave at the end of the day. Let the client's junior employees work long hours. Not your problem.
OP brought their own equipment, which is totally fine but "who provides equipment" is also in the contract from the start. OP should have made a list of equipment that the client will require to complete such a project and stipulate a client budget be set aside to cover any shortcomings as they arise.
The contract is where you define when you get paid. "Deposit is XYZ quantity, non-refundable. Contractor will be paid for the upcoming week in advance by X date. Failure to remit payment will halt work."
I understand that the point of this blog piece is that it was a learning experience for OP but this stuff is pretty obvious isn't it? This is pretty much what comes up when you google stuff like "how to get into freelance contracting." I'm shocked and feel bad for OP for letting things get this far. Sadly, they were not ripped off by anyone but themselves.
And yet, somehow, you gave them the most important time you had for their promises.
This wasn't because of the customer or not getting paid. This was the author's choice.
Has saved me from wasting my time on loads of projects before.
Reading the thread, I think most of us who have worked contracts here have been burned one way or another
My SO has her own story - she ran into a guy whom she later found out does it as a policy: hires people, never pays, threatens to sue them if they publish their story. Her lawyer told her to just forget about it.
It's then that find out the limitations of our legal system: if the client is international, forget about it. If they're out of state, prepare to deal with an expensive legal process taking place where the laws may not always favor you. And even if it's local, and you won in a small claims court - good luck collecting.
I have periodic payments built into all my contracts, with the final payment taking place after acceptance tests, but before me surrendering all materials and code. I won't say this is a 100% bulletproof solution, but the alternatives suck.
While these statements are generally true, it shouldn't dissuade anyone from pursuing these remedies.
Years back I took a small programming contract with a 'friend of a friend' that ended with me delivering what was asked and them suddenly not having any money, claiming the company was going under.
They were in another state. I filed small claims by mail and they never responded, so I got a default judgement without ever needing to travel, for under $500 in total fees. The judgement is worthless though, right? Probably...
Fast forward about a month and they had an investor willing to float the company for a while longer, but now my judgement is a giant wrench - the investor won't give them money as long as this is hanging around. I got the cofounders to jointly take on the debt personally (after consulting with a lawyer that this was possible - he didn't even charge for the consult!) and I vacated the judgement against the LLC.
A short while later the LLC went under anyway, but since I had both founders' personal finances under my thumb (which would allow garnishing wages, obtaining leins, etc.) I was able to recoup the entire contract amount from them personally.
I wouldn't have spent more than about $1,000 chasing that money down, but a few hours of paperwork and a few hundred dollars ended up making it easily worth my while.
It's not a pleasure to work like this, but it can be done.
Individual businesses may be different, of course.
99 out 100 times they will be a hassle, and you'll be lucky if they pay you anything beyond the upfront payment.
Even worse if it is another business, as the author writes, those can just declare bankruptcy and walk away.
This is unfortunately all too common. It's hard for someone who isn't an expert in the specific field to separate a smooth grifter from a more typical sales pitch
"The faith was that if they didn’t pay, the legal system would enforce our California-law contract and make them pay."
Like come on dude. You left your wife and 2 year old child to fly across the world do this project on the faith that some random AR bus company would honor their word and pay you 35k? How did you think this contract would be enforceable? I've got a bridge to sell you if that's all it takes to get you to go all in.
Business in China does not operate the same way that it does in western countries. Period, end of story. If my California based AR bus company hired this person, agreed to pay them this amount in writing, signed the contract, then bailed. I would get sued and have to either pay this person or spend more money hiring a legal team to draw it out long enough to where this person quit trying to sue me. Either way thats not a great outcome, it makes my business look bad, there are repercussions so I would rather just pay this person the agreed amount.
In China they will just walk away and dissolve the company if you come after them hard enough (like the author mentions) and start working again under a new company name. They know this too, and they know that western businesses (Americans especially) are operating under the assumption that there will be penalties for not following through on something you said was going to happen, so they take advantage.
I guarantee that all this company intended to pay the author was the initial amount they gave to him in the upfront fee, knowing full well they would eventually leave the country once the work visa ended or the project time was up and they would never see them again / be able to just send a canned response back to any follow up about paying the full amount.
The company in China will sign whatever you want them to, you could ask for the moon in return if they don't deliver on their side of the agreement and they would happily sign it knowing that you won't be able to do anything but make a blog post about it if they don't.
When are we going to learn this?
In any case, if they don't want to publish the name on their own web page, they'll not want to publicly post it as a reply on HN either…
If they try to dissolve and create another business that operates in the same sphere/as a successor or with the same management team; the debt doesn't disappear, you just prosecute the new entity. With an added cherry of potential criminal prosecution, if they're particularly egregious about it.
People can 100% get around paying, that happens. But the judgement will remain on their record. This will make reincorporation difficult as well as just acting as a warning to future partners that do basic due diligence.
No one's saying it's easy to get the money back, but rolling over probably is the least desirable outcome (and probably why they've acted this way with so many people).
As to your collection firms, I can't speak to it. Maybe your situation is more complicated (e.g. registered entity out of state, unclear contract terms, etc) or they just don't want to go through with the hassle of doing more than they were hired to do (send nag letters and hope for easy turnover).
In the future, you can use it as a learning experience. Keep your deliverables under the small claims limit, do metered payouts, etc.
- Payment is due X days after receipt of invoice, or immediately after the consultant has addressed any quality issues, whichever is sooner
- Late payment shall incur interest at 8% above the BoE base rate and a late fee of 100 GBP as per the UK Late Payment Legislation. Partial payments on invoices shall apply to late fees, interest, and then principal, in that order.
- In the event of a late payment the invoice for the next deliverable shall immediately fall due.
- The consultant shall be entitled to shift deadlines on deliverables in the event of a late payment as a result of any work disruption, without incurring any liability.
- Payment shall be made in X currency, or an exchange rate at X date on Oanda.com shall apply.
- The client is responsible for any bank fees incurred by their, or any intermediary bank. In the event of a SWIFT transaction it shall be made with the OUR payment code.
- The jurisdiction in the event of a conflict shall be England and Wales. Neither party shall be bound by arbitration.
- The client and consultant shall both indemnify the other up to the total value of the contract and shall not under any circumstance be liable beyond X GBP.
We also no longer share downloadable links of our deliverables until they are paid up. They get a view/comment only link for reports/data etc.
We’ve found that clients that aren’t willing to accept these terms won’t pay you either way.
We determine the net days on the invoice based on the credit rating of the client. Ironically, the good clients pay within 2-3 days normally, and the difficult ones are very “long tail”. About 1% of contracts tend to fully or partially default on their payments.
We’re in a particularly credit poor industry but our average delay due to late payment is 23 days. Those clients where we stop delivery pay on average 11 days sooner than those contracts where we don’t stop delivery.
This is based on around 2,000 invoices sent over the last 5 years.
It costs something like 80 quid to file for recovery in court and in our experience invoices are immediately paid up when a “Letter before action” is sent.
You burn the relationship, but arguably you probably don’t want it anyway.
I believe this is what we call small claims court in the United States. The threshold varies by state, but it is a very effective way to deal with recalcitrant companies both large and small.
This isn't arbitrary peanut-gallerying, I've walked away from several jobs that weren't anywhere near as bad as the one in TFA because I couldn't see any way forward that wasn't going to end in disaster. One of them at least, I'm fairly certain, would have ended up in criminal prosecution.
Why ironically? Isn't that exactly what you'd expect?
Kind of mirrors "it's expensive to be poor"
In a different domain, this is the painful lesson of almost anyone who tries to help people in a bind -- you can try to help, but yours is unlikely to be the advice that sets them straight, so you shouldn't get too invested with unproven or, especially, proven unreliable actors.
It should be, oh, short-term rush job in a foreign country for a sketchy client? That is most definitely cash up front time. Oh, you can't afford that? Sucks to be you, not going to do it.
Typically you would reference average exchange rate published by the central bank
Do you mean 8 percent, or 8 percentage points?
They mean “percentage points”.
https://www.gov.uk/late-commercial-payments-interest-debt-re...
As I understand it, from our lawyer, is that this exact wording is automatically enforceable in UK courts and easiest in the event of a dispute. It’s also generally internationally accepted.
Be pleasantly surprised when a poorly run project is being run by nice, honest people. Prep for the opposite.
But let's assume he got 100% upfront.
More importantly, he didn't protect scope or contract change requests. That was the time to contract. It sounds like collecting 100% would've been leaving money on the table for value delivered.
I like your label for "fix your mess" guys, but I know/use a few who definitely bill and get paid much later (especially lawyers). Sucks for OP that he contracted with a CN firm with credit risk.
The most important thing is that you weren't "ripped off" - you were taken advantage of. Ripped off is when you buy a TV that's supposed to work and it doesn't. Or you just don't get one.
You were taken advantage of - which requires your active consent. Nobody made you do all these things for them on faith. You could have left after a few days. You could have demanded payment up front. But you volunteered to continue down this awful path.
I hope you learn to value your time, and yourself, higher than this in the future.
It isn't, but you can't get blood from a stone and squeezing costs money.
It sounds like the entity that the contract is with has no real assets and/or is based in a jurisdiction which is hard to enforce judgements in. That's a case where you need to get paid up-front, which is the real lesson in this article.
Or at least in very small batches and with very short due dates.
However them dissolving the entity and moving their assets and IP around is also not free and will incur overhead, if they actually did it.
Threatening to dissolve the entity seemingly admits that they do have something worth collecting against. In my experience the companies who run out of money just tell you that they’re out of money and they also start losing key employees and your email contacts because they’re not getting paid either. If the company continues to exist and they’re threatening you to not sue, that might be a sign that they do have the money but they’re relying on intimidating contractors to not try collecting it.
Legal action is not free, so all of this has to be weighed.
EDIT: I should explain how I know this. Younger me took a job with a startup that got in over its head with spending but the CEO didn’t want the party to stop. His strategy was to stop paying any vendors and use the remaining cash flow to only pay past invoices for vendors that we needed something from (more work, more product) or anyone who looked like they were going to sue us. If someone got lawyers involved, they got paid. Needless to say I didn’t keep that job very long.
Definitely bring it up with your lawyer.
If I don't get paid for one day of work, I will probably get over it in a few hours. If I don't get paid for six months of work, we will have a serious problem. The tighter and more incremental we can make the delivery process, the less likely anyone gets screwed.
If a party is pushing hard for long-term contracts or large up-front sums of payment, I would walk away from that transaction unless there was a literal golden goose sitting in their lap.
I send a gentle reminder just to my immediate point of contact to start. If that doesn't work, I start sending more business-like requests for payment every week, and I CC anyone I think might help make it happen.
I've never fired anyone, and everyone has eventually paid (knock wood), but there have been times when I assumed the money was a lost cause (though never five figures worth like the person who shared this blog post).
But more than once, I've had a client contact me and request new work, and I've had to remind them they still have an unpaid invoice. I'll tell them I can't start anything new until the old work is paid. They almost invariably blame the delay on their billing department, and the money eventually finds its way to me.
Well run businesses will pay you on the 29th day. :)
Also, mandatory: https://creativemornings.com/talks/mike-monteiro--2/1
The lesson I learned is that it doesn't matter how long they've been your friend, when it comes time to pay, they may still try to stiff you. The value of your service diminishes infinitely after it has been performed.
Choice quote from the linked talk (aptly titled "F*ck you, pay me").
The weirdest part to me, receive a call and just get up and go? Priorities? Did you write this blog post from the doghouse?
And TBH, I have also had a few false positives. One contract I did not take (it was for a mix of equity and cash) turned into a 10B+ company, and I would have made enough to retire (again) on it over a 1-year contract. I didn't because the founder who called me just sounded completely clueless and was barraging me with marketing speak instead of explaining what he needed. I was so exhausted from his BS I just decided I didn't need the headache. (This is also a danger of having enough to retire ... you turn down a lot of potentially lucrative work because you just don't think the headaches are worth it).
In the grand scheme of things, other than that one big missed opportunity, I haven't missed too much upside by being so picky. And when I'm counseling colleagues about their unpaid contracts and conflicts, I'm always silently thanking the stars I have the luxury to say no. I know that's a priviledge.
Ordinarily, I would sign master agreements and set PO terms up-front. Typically, the better customers would agree to very strict requirements / objectives for a particular time period for a specific price. Any deviations would require negotiation. Hourly is fine too but there must be regular milestone deliveries so that there's demonstrable value for money being conveyed rather than an appearance of a milking-oriented consultant. Expectations must always be managed.
Project goes well, he gets paid and they're best buds, and he doesn't even realize he was scammed (by intent). If not, well there's no point suing a failed company.
Some favorites:
- No way they would actually screw me over! We're buds/they got me tiger balm/they paid some/I did them a solid
- Thin veneer of safe fallbacks that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Legal or other 'repercussions'
- Endless delays and excuses (though it's usually too late by this point)
> They were attempting to pull off AR effects on the transparent OLED windows of the bus without accounting for lens distortion, field of view, parallax, occlusion, etc., and were frustrated and mystified when things didn’t appear to line up. They were completely naive to what depth and scale cues are and how to deploy them.
A. You need to know where a passager's eyes are to display the POI in the right place. Even if each rows gets their own and only screen you'll need to account for their head vertical position (different people are different height) and movement, hence the eye tracking.
B. If you share a window between multiple people you end us with a POI mess with informations displayed multiplied by as much passengers in the bus.
|- r9 -|w9
| |w9
|- r10 -|w10 T
| |w10
|- r11 -|w11
| |w11
|- r12 -|w12
It is most likely going to not pay anyone so you need to make sure you're paid above and beyond anything else otherwise walk.
These founders hire/fire through hundreds of us, they don't give a shit.
If you say 1 thing they don't like they go to the next.
$35k seems pretty low for this job. Hindsight is 20/20 of course.
I am so deadly serious - do not continue working if your invoices are late.
You don't have to be a jerk about it, just explain to your primary contact that you need to be paid and you pick up tools again when the money has arrived.
BUT it is on YOU to properly negotiate reasonable payment terms. And if you don;t know or don't trust the client then require payment in advance until a stronger commercial relationship can be settled in. Do not be a baby - go research business contracts and payment terms.
Do not be afraid to lose business from companies that are squeamish about paying you - in fact actively avoid such companies.
Do you still cut your own hair ;) ?
But yes us folks in the creative world can learn a few things from the corporate world when it comes to contracts and payment schedules. Mike Monteiro's talk 'F*ck you, pay me' comes to mind.
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When you go out of pocket - you are out of pocket and the risk is all yours. If that one thing was different then all the remaining risk is on the client - they don't want to do version contr - ok cool you still get paid.
Usually when you have to pay in to get paid out (outside of a direct investment scenario) it's a scam. The people who fall for the Nigeria Prince thing are operating the same way.
The people behind this were irresponsible, childish, and exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect. They weren’t really hardline crooks. Crooks are probably a lot more organized.
I have gotten myself invested with similar crowds. There’s usually a charismatic spokesperson, leading the chaos.
They likely didn’t plan to rip him off, but paying him wasn’t really something they thought about. Real crooks put lots of planning into taking money.
> Multiple very junior developers were touching (binary, TouchDesigner) code and deploying straight to production via thumb drive, with zero version control. In fact, they didn’t know what version control was.
I suspect many startups fit that description. If they survive, then they usually pull themselves up by the bootstraps, eventually. Many of them collapse, taking everything with them.
But then given what I’ve learned since I think I can say with some certainty that this particular group saw the writing on the wall and were willing to use the skilled labor and time of an endless army of cannon fodder to try to staunch the bleeding or take one more long shot at getting final payment, and doing so without the agreement or awareness of the people they enlisted to the risk they were participating in.
When the wheels start coming off, morals are first over the side.
In some cases (think Theranos), it can go all the way into straight criminality. Most times, it just reaches the point where everything collapses, when the supports rust away.
It seemed shady from the start, but since it involved python, something I had very little experience with, I decided to try it. I worked like 15-20 hours per week for a few months, learned enough python to be comfortable with it and some other APIs as well (being a little vague on purpose). Later said they could maybe afford to pay me some $$ due to another company they had founded being sold (I verified this much, the person had founded and sold a few companies).
It eventually fell apart after my first deliverable (as I expected, mostly). I used encryption to send python files that would only work for a couple of weeks. Not sure if they ever did anything with it (it's been a few years). Oh well, it ended up helping me get another job where python was a good skill to have.
The biggest loss was that of losing all trust in the person setting things up.
A little hyperbolic, but more accurate than not when laypeople think about contracts.
A contract isn’t a magic spell, it is a declaration of shared understanding that can be used for clarity and in legal proceedings.
If you think of a contract as a way to ensure you get what you agreed, yes, it is toilet paper, because a contract doesn’t remove counterparty risk.
this is only getting worse with ai.
all the artifacts of good work are there but none of the depth.
Edit to note: I took the contract’s enforceability on faith. That was not what I thought it was. Had I known the contract gets you jack shit in the way of justice, I’d have taken more seriously the possibility that these guys would rip me off, which they did.
Pretty sure they used "ripped off" correctly: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rip-o...
>You could have left after a few days.
Veering towards victim blaming territory there. Also was the FAQ about progress payments added to the OP site after you commented earlier?
The author does contracting in niche topics. When your contracting domain is uncommon you have to go where the work is.
You can charge higher prices for niche work and therefore tolerate more time in between contracts. This person may be spending more time not working and with his family than the typical FTE in this arrangement, even if the jobs occasionally require them to fly somewhere for a month.
Apparently doing emergency repair work can be extremely well paid.
(His wife was fine with it, but when there's great inconvenience for the family balanced by great pay for the family, you've got to get paid)
Or... maybe he needs income to exist.
atleast that's my interpretation of it of how logic might follow if they are working in niche space, many people seem to be applying the logic onto themselves into completely standard situation, but I don't suppose that is the case here.
Hope this helps in genuinely understanding their situation, from my reading/thinking about it.
Its easy to say don't be afraid to lose business, but when you're starting out, the economy is rough or all you have are the one or two clients, that's a different matter entirely.
One thing I've learned is that you always have to do the leg work, you can't assume someone will do the right thing or keep their word.
Develop a system where even bad clients, can't do too much damage i.e. upfront deposits, milestone-based payments. You have to control cash flow risks, if you are gonna take risks know what risks you're taking and when to get out.
Please don't be them. If you do good work make sure that you get your bills sent on time.
Sadly, while this is true, there are plenty of folks still doing freelance who have not learned this, and there always will be. It's just one of those lessons that quite a lot of people have to learn from experience, even after reading posts like this. The exact same reason why companies will continue to get away with taking advantage of freelance work.
My boss said that the ones who have negotiated the best deals are the ones that are late paying, complain about just about every bill and will write angry letters when my boss index adjust pricing.
He said it taught him to never offer a really good deal for a regular customer (ie where the upside isn't very obvious).
The takeaway here is probably that the fix isn't just "never discount", but it's to screen for the kind of customer who treats a good deal as an invitation to strengthen the relationship.
OTOH, one other clear subtext of the story is the "savior" attitude of a lot of tech people, who think that, if they weren't using version control before, think, "oh, I'll just tell them about this great thing, and because it's much better they will definitely listen to me and implement it - it's only logical". But the harsh reality is that "better" things won't affect an org that went along that far and dug themselves that deep.
Never underestimate an org's ability to shoot itself in the foot, even if you think you know better. That includes getting your money from them.
It might have involved OP getting a taxi to the airport and being chased down at the gate, but it would have worked.
And even if it didn't, they would have saved themselves enormous time, money, and stress by following through on their threats if it didn't work out.
As an electrician currently self-stopped (for both non-payment & absenteeism, two months no contact, so far) I'm not budging. When you didn't show up for our last two on-site meetups (and still haven't contacted), I thought about filing a lien... but decided to just keep you from having tenants (by not finishing AC/water/electric). You'll get around to it..?
When I told this LLC/owner "you obviously aren't in a rush because you obviously aren't visiting the jobsite/me" I sort of expected him to show within a few days. Then a few weeks. And now we're entering a few months.
You have weeks of my punchlists (unresolved to do), I have weeks of questions (what do you want?) and you won't even do simple things like turning on power/water.
Fuck you, pay me.
"They don't even use version control..." Yeah? Get the money. The client are "carpetbaggers", yeah okay... get the money.
It's implied that they hired you because they need the help. But they also may have hired you because they need the help and you seem like a sucker they can stiff.
This is usually the same the other way; many vendors will give business clients net 30. That's nice if you're a small company and need to plan ahead. But occasionally, because you're considered small (liability), some vendors will want the money up-front. So unless you're very careful with cashflow, you end up in situations where your main sources of income (big contracts) are coming in after you need to spend money on a widget to fulfill deliverables.
Depending on the situation, the contract can demand the client purchase/ship things and work doesn't start until you have them in hand. This is usually the best route as you now have an out, and it's not an unreasonable request, but it doesn't always pan out that way!
From my pov, green flags for a good "bad" project mostly come from the attitude of leadership - especially if they already recognise there's a problem, and that some form of cultural change may be needed rather than expecting a purely technical solution.
On the other hand, if they seem reluctant to consider root causes, or if there's any sense that they're seeking to cover up problems or shift blame, then those are pretty clear red flags. Quick fixes tend to fall apart, and aren't really satisfying for anyone.
- Fly out to the initial discussion, talk to their architect, some guy they imported from France in an otherwise entirely non-French company a long way from France (not bashing French folks here but just wondering where they dug this guy up). They've read about scalability and told him to come up with a design for that, which is distributed stateless everything (this was years before microservices and CRUD and whatnot). Except that they don't have the resources to build the stateless distributed everything so they're getting all the downsides of stateless distributed everything without getting the scalability that it's supposed to provide. You know its bad when one of the nontechnical sales guys that you're having a few drinks with after work can give you a breakdown if why it won't work.
- Parachute in for the first date, they've hired a bunch of kids straight out of college who are all hacking away at whatever they've been assigned to. So I'm walking around chatting to all of them, asking what they're doing and how long they think it'll take. Most of the time the answer is "oh, probably about two weeks". At the same time I'm running a mental Gantt chart for all the components and figure out that even if they meet their wildly, ludicrously unrealistic time estimates it's going to take them at least two years to get the product out the door. Some of their two-week timelines I estimate would take an absolute minimum of six months work, but probably a lot longer. Or a few days if they use the existing open-source tool that does the same thing, but they're going to do it better so they don't need to use any existing code.
- Site visit, the office manager screws up the travel arrangements, screws up the accom, the developers clock in at exactly 9am and down tools on the minute at 5pm so it's tumbleweeds in the office at 17:00:01, the mgt. is in a separate set of offices on the other side of the building and don't talk to the devs, over lunch the devs are talking about how much longer they'll stay before they start sending out resumes.
- The possibly-criminal one, I'll use an analogy to avoid identifying the actual job but lets say you've been brought in to develop an automated pen-testing toolkit. Not just a vulnerability scanner but something that then exploits the vulnerability. "You don't think that this could perhaps be misused by the people that commissioned it?". "Oh, we were so enthusiastic about the job that we never even thought about that".
You may have noticed a common theme here, talking to the techies and/or taking them out for lunch/drinks. So if there's one takeaway, it's do that. That's how you'll find out whether it's an organisation you want to get involved with or not.
Neatly distilled I believe you are correct
Didn’t realize it needed saying but I left the child and did the work in exchange for money I needed (still need) to feed the child.
Many people do this every day. I do it when it makes sense or the conditions require, which is to say I am a WFH contractor who sometimes works on site occasionally.
Sounds like he is in there 24/7 most likely spending more time than you or me with his kid over the course of the year (if you are in a regular 9-5 type of role with limited PTO) — or he'd not even mention missing a month with his 2yo.
Think of ¡all the exposure! doing this free labor for us will give you! /s
or:
I'll cook you dinner if you do this days of work for me /serious?!
Cofounders and founding engineers just don’t talk enough about how they model the financial risk of investing in a high risk asset like a startup, and how they make sure that they’re not taking on more risk than they can personally manage if things don’t work out. Approaches will vary by person and personal circumstances, so it’s also helpful to know what constraints they’re working with (like needing to house and feed their family).
It's literally just not worth it. Time is the most finite resource that we all have.
It is possible to switch to a smaller VNO with better customer policies. But then your cellular data gets dropped during heavy network congestion, which is probably worse for most of us.
This is really the key. The "deal" has to have something for both parties. The vendor gets some kind of lock-in, prepayment, guarantee of future business, whatever it is, and in exchange the purchaser gets a discount.
The discount doesn't just come out of nowhere.
That was indeed the point, guess I conveyed it in a poor way.