I won't download your app. The web version is a-ok

I won't download your app. The web version is a-ok(0xsid.com)

929 points by ssiddharth 42 days ago | 564 comments

What most people dont get:

Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18

For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to (remember the years before dot com bubble, saying: "I will be down in the basement at the computer to surf on the net little bit" ? :-)

But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens!

Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt.

Personally, a service which is "only an app" will be not used by me as I prefer to have a larger screen with more information (actually I use my mobile phone only when Im in public transport or similar, at home I have a notebook laying around if I need something)

nkrisc 42 days ago | |

> But today, the very first touchpoint with "the internet" for younger folks is a smartphone display. The even do homework on this small screens!

I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks.

For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply.

I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.

Honestly I think Apple perfectly captured it with their "what's a computer?" ad for the iPad. I seem to remember them getting some flak online for it but I think they were right on the money with regards to the younger generations.

AlBugdy 42 days ago | | |

> I personally find the idea of doing homework on my phone horrifying but I suppose kids today are either used to it and comfortable with it, or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.

First hand from a couple of ~16 year olds I know. Definitely not a representative sample. Some know how to type at an acceptable speed. They're awful at shortcuts (alt-tab, many of the browser shortcuts that also present in many other programs (ctrl-w,-t,-s,-q) and most text-selection and movement shortcuts (ctrl-a,-x,-c,-v and (ctrl-)shift-left,-right)) so they navigate clumsily compared to us. They feel awkward when performing simple tasks but they do it faster than on a smartphone. They don't understand some of the terms and abstractions, likely because the smartphones keep that away from them.

Seeing them navigate things like homework or spreadsheets or multiple tabs in a browser from a smartphone is like watching a caveman trying to use a piece of brittle rock as a hammer. It will work in the end, but it's slow. I haven't looked at them closely enough, but I doubt they can comfortably keep more than 10 tabs open and navigate between them with the same speed as on a laptop or a desktop. I assume their browsing habits are qualitatively different than ours because of that. You can't really do adequate research on a smartphone.

kaladin-jasnah 42 days ago | | |

For college aged kids, most people are definitely not doing their homework on their phone. Many are still using paper and pencil. The one person I know who did do their homework on their phone tried to evangelize it to their friends and got ridiculed for it.

m463 42 days ago | | |

> or they've simply never used a computer and don't know what they're missing. Though I'd wager they probably aren't comfortable typing on a keyboard.

On the other hand, I've noticed lots of people use voice on their phone instead of a keyboard.

Many friends of mine send occasional nonsense in the middle of a text message, and it becomes obvious they're using voice to text.

As a young kid, why would I laboriously type a homework paper when I could dictate it from the couch or some other better location than a desk?

InexSquirrel 42 days ago | | |

I think it's easier for kids to get hold of a phone at a younger age and become accustomed to it, and don't realise the jank / frustration it introduces when doing certain tasks.

I become unreasonably frustrated when having to search for things on the phone. Buying stuff online is a 'big screen task' not because of the security aspect, but because of needing to compare multiple products, which involve jumping between tabs. I can do that via shift/ctrl-tab, clicking, alt-tab etc - basically a single click. On the phone it's at least 3, and a genuinely grating experience saying nothing of having to copy and paste text for searching.

That said I've come across people that don't know basic copy and paste shortcuts / basic PC literacy, so for those I can see how the phone would feel no less efficient.

I think as kids get older, and their tasks require more digital complexity to complete, they'll slowly migrate towards laptops and larger screen devices (maybe including tablets, maybe not). Basic surfing etc is fine, but there is no way I want to be using even a spreadsheet on a phone - it's a miserable experience - saying nothing of something with genuine complexity like Blender.

ghaff 42 days ago | | |

I was somewhat shocked a while back when a coworker told me that they offered their kid a laptop for school work and the kid apparently said : Thanks but I’ll stick with my phone.

pnexk 42 days ago | | |

It is also the case that PCs are still more expensive than phones. Had a work colleague in one of my first customer facing service jobs who relied almost completely on an android phone to get everything done from mortgage applications to entertainment before I gifted them one of my lesser used laptops.

seba_dos1 42 days ago | | |

I was probably one of the first people doing some of these "big screen tasks" on my phone nearly two decades ago when I was a teenager who spent his first earned money to get an Openmoko Neo Freerunner - I learned a lot by programming the phone on the phone itself - but what was exciting about it was that I could do all these things even when I did not have a big screen and a keyboard in front of me. When I do, it's just so much more comfortable to do it there, especially these days when touch screens are capacitive and not very accurate anymore!

TeMPOraL 42 days ago | | |

> I saw a tweet recently that perfectly encapsulates this: for most people over 30, certain things are "big screen tasks". I use my phone for a lot, but for some things I put the phone down and use my computer instead. I am most comfortable using a large screen and a keyboard for anything that requires writing more than a few words or using any interface for more than a few clicks.

Yup. From the frontier of mobile tech, I can say that a foldable phone (Galaxy Z Fold 7) is the first mobile device that successfully ate into this category, and bit a rather substantial chunks out of it. It's only been ~6 months into this experience, but the "big tasks" for me now are the ones that benefit from substantial use of keyboard and/or mouse. If it's only about screen space or doing things in 2-3 apps at the time, chances are my phone is now good enough for its mobility to beat inconvenience - though chances are also good that at least one of the programs will be a browser, because mobile apps still suck.

satvikpendem 42 days ago | | |

It's because of limited RAM that this distinction started.

On especially older phones if I were to write a long comment and move to a different tab or app before submitting, I can all but guarantee the OS would kill and try reloading the tab and lose all my text. What's even worse is this could happen mid online purchase which can have even greater consequences (double booking or purchasing especially but things like flight tickets). People who grew up with older phones saw this happen all too often and moved to a desktop or laptop computer where that literally never happens, at least by default.

This, I'd bet, is the primary reason for big vs small screen activities, although of course there are many secondary ones, such as the phone being many kids' primary interface

kstrauser 42 days ago | | |

This resonates. There are certain tasks, like dealing with any government or healthcare-related web page, that I won't even bother attempting on my phone. In my case, it's because I just know in my heart of hearts that the crummy mobile website won't be feature-complete enough for me to complete my goal.

My wife is the opposite. It doesn't occur to her that the problem may be with the janky website, not with her. She'll ask me for help with a thing out of frustration and my first troubleshooting step is to reach for my laptop. This is almost inevitably followed by "hey, wait, how come you're able to press the Submit button but I wasn't able to?" "Because the dev never tested this on a phone and it's broken." "So it's not just me being incompetent to use this website?" "Nope, never was."

mathgeek 42 days ago | | |

For many kids, they have one device and it’s a phone or tablet. They may have access to a computer, but not on demand. Much like when many of us were growing up and had one computer.

dfxm12 42 days ago | | |

This isn't phone vs desktop. It's app vs browser. To wit, there's no official HN app. I'm presuming you did both of these tasks in a browser.

ghaff 42 days ago | | |

I’ve been trying a bit of an experiment on my current trip and I’m still skeptical about iPad plus Magic Keyboard. Better than alternatives but still so-so. I think I’ll go back to my 10+ year old MacBook Pro but unless something really changes I’ll just pick up an Air for traveling at some point.

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | | |

> For example, I read your comment on my phone and went to my computer to type this reply.

Thanks for the honor! :)

Sometimes I even copy links from here and send them by mail to myself so I can reply later - maybe Im getting tooo old? :-D (on the iPhone I would store it in a simple textnote)

anjel 42 days ago | | |

To this day, using soft keyboards + autocorrect boils my blood. Q: Are we not men?

SunshineTheCat 42 days ago | |

This hit the nail on the head.

I find much of the HN community insightful and interesting, but in terms of consumer feedback (especially in a B2C environment) I wouldn't touch feedback here with a 10-foot pole.

I don't mean that to be an insult, quite the opposite. Most people here are power users. But that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet.

beloch 42 days ago | | |

"Why do I need to download a 100+ MB app, give it permission to track my location, and let it run background processes just to browse through a restaurant menu, buy a ticket, or scroll through a list of posts?"

-------------------

Hardware/software companies have, historically, targeted power users because regular users listen to them. The companies producing these apps do so because they can benefit from exploiting the data of regular users, but risk little blowback from power users if they keep their web versions up to date and in good shape.

That doesn't mean power users should ignore the presence of these apps however. We should be telling regular users to avoid them for their own safety. We should also be worried that, if we stay quiet and let regular users flock to apps, the motivation to maintain web access will be eroded. When all power users vanish into a single percentage point and a platform achieves total dominance over the alternatives, companies might well choose to focus on only apps.

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | | |

> that is a galaxy away from how the average user interacts with the internet

Exactly! Esp if you just move away "one tile" from tech/IT or business-power-users, most people are more or less clueless what they are doing/have to do with a computer.

Yes, we are in a bubble here - as with every niche/special interest topic: It would be same for me if I would join a "car tuning event" or similar - Im just a car user, and I do not know of all these details and nuts & bolts

BloondAndDoom 42 days ago | | |

Very fair point, as an experienced B2B guy myself whenever someone ask me advice about B2C in like “I have no idea”. Been doing this for 25 years but B2C especially today geared towards younger audience is impossible to related for me. I assume majority of the demographics of HN similar

clickety_clack 42 days ago | | |

Wait, you mean typical consumers _don’t_ want to build my terminal-based TUI app from source?

karimf 42 days ago | |

This. I posted this on my other comment, but there's a meme that "Gen Z Kids Don't Understand How File Systems Work" [0].

There seems to be a disconnect between some developers and the younger folks.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526

btilly 42 days ago | | |

That's not new.

I read a UI book in the early 2000s that cited research showing that most users didn't understand filesystems. They would seem to, but then the idea that the same filename in two places was two unrelated files would just lead to a mental block. Those who got it, didn't find it hard. It's just that some people can't get it.

The disconnect is not between some developers, and the younger folks. It is between some developers, and most of the world.

dariosalvi78 42 days ago | | |

not even the older generations. My parents save files on the Whatsapp chat, and my father is one who bought the first IBM PC when it came out, so someone who has touched these things for decades (tho very superficially).

I think that the software industry, especially operating systems, have completely failed to provide a balanced product between the overly bloated and messed up (Windows), the overly complicated (Linux) and the overly simplified (Android/iOS).

Maybe some Linux distros are now at the right spot, I was positively surprised by PopOS to give an example, but it's too late. With AI this is only going to get worse.

mghackerlady 42 days ago | | |

I can say for certain this is true. People my age look at me like I have 3 heads if I ask them to do anything more complex than open a web browser

Imustaskforhelp 42 days ago | | |

(17 yo here), I think that I am eternally grateful to my cousins who convinced my parents to give me a desktop computer which is still working right now (it had a minor hiccup in the processor recently but it works), before that, I was having a 1 gb crt monitor win7 on which I somehow ran Vscode smoothly.

I am very frugal (to save money on webcam, in online classes, I had droidcam /wo-mic setup with one of my parents old phones that were so old that online classes couldn't work or were just too slow) but spending money on a decent personal computer is genuinely one of the best investments personally.

One thing my cousins did which I am sorta grateful in retrospect is they didn't buy me a gpu so my computer was really nice/smooth in everything but gaming, I still ran some games like portal series , inscryption and many other games like valorant and it was playing valorant when I started realizing its chinese company roots and kernel level access meaning that there was no proper way to guarantee to have piece of mind unless I reinstall it

So I felt like if I was reinstalling, I was watching some the linux experiments video anyway and was fascinated by linux, so I just decided to choose myself to use nobara-linux for the first time which was another one of the best decisions that I made as it opened me up to the terminal.

direwolf20 42 days ago | | |

Filesystems aren't some universal truth. They were invented at a specific moment in time for specific reasons.

fuzzy2 42 days ago | | |

No. There is a disconnect between domain insiders and those that are not. This is not specific to any one domain. It's also not about age.

Some insiders know about this disconnect and fewer still can bridge it easily.

Those that cannot even sense this disconnect, they're a bit of a pain in certain situations. You know, like talking to project stakeholders or customers.

mint5 42 days ago | |

Wrong. While I agree about younger people’s impression and experience with apps and the internet, that is not what companies are responding to - in fact it’s backward.

Companies have for ages pushed apps due to more control and data. That’s why younger folk grew up with apps.

The push to apps was absolutely not due to companies responding to consumer sentiment. Yes now it has been ingrained so now there are expectations, but those are due to companies pushing people to apps for years and years

ChrisMarshallNY 42 days ago | | |

Apps generally have a lot more access to the user info than Web sites. I remember getting into an argument, here (one-sided, I didn't argue then, and I won't now), about how a Web site is just as intrusive and privacy-endangering as an app (I think they wrote PWAs, and didn't want to cede the point to native apps). I feel they were wrong. Apps can get more information than web sites; even with sandboxing.

In my experience, apps can figure out a lot more about the user, than a Web site.

I just reported a game to Apple, that, after the app has been resident for 24 hours, pops up an unescapable modal to sign into their Web site. I am sure the 24-hour delay, is so they don't get caught by the App Store folks. I suspect that what happens, during this "daily checkin," is that the app sends a bunch of encrypted data that it got from your device, to the servers in China.

Basically, they can learn more about you from the app, than from the Web site.

I generally avoid apps, where the Web site will do. I won't install banking apps, at all.

Imustaskforhelp 42 days ago | |

> Most of folks on HN here are much older than todays "first customers" of 16y/17/18

17yo here, I know that I might be a bit of an exception here but atleast within my privacy conscious friend circle, I feel like they prefer websites more than apps and I feel like that plays an impact, (Obviously this might make a difference as well that for some of my generation, they only use phone so phone applications feel more intuitive to them)

I used to say to my elder brother that I wish to make websites not apps if I do because websites are more portable etc., but he said that websites are hard to monetize etc. rather than apps which are easier to monetize. I think that one of the reasons is also that app are easily monetized and this has become a norm to many people outside of HN/privacy-conscious sphere in general.

I really wanted to make f-droid applications sometime ago but I don't know Java and I really love how easy it is to make an applicaation in golang/python/any lang in desktops usually but I tried making an tauri android rust application from my desktop Linux and it was really frustrating, I feel like there are some very low hanging fruits privacy win where open source tools can be converted into just bare minimum-ly good UI/UX android/ios apps (which works) and be published to something like f-droid.

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | | |

> I feel like they prefer websites more than apps

The fact that you are here on HN tells me: You and your friends are tech savy, most in your age are not :-)

Edit: Regarding monetization -> yes, either carrier billing (if available) or just by iTunes account is much much easier and higher conversion, just becaues of the fact that people do not have to remember their payment details :-D

jmull 42 days ago | |

> Companies are seeing this switch, so they adapt.

You’re confusing cause and effect here.

Companies are pushing apps very hard because it gives them a lot more ability to wield their various revenue enhancing dark patterns.

That kids see apps as the primary option is a corporate success metric, not an organic choice.

Anyway, the premise that “phone screen ==> native app not web app” is rather faulty, is it not?

Klonoar 42 days ago | | |

They’re not confusing anything, you’re just sticking your head in the sand.

The modern entry path to “computing” is small screen devices (phones). Their point of newcomers not having our same entry path is accurate. This is organic, however much we don’t like it.

Anything past that is just market skating where the puck is.

ranit 42 days ago | |

> What most people dont get ...

The OP Blog post is comparing web versions vs applications. Both on the phone. And arguing that browser representation is often better than app functionality. Using desktop vs small screen phone is a different matter.

Zak 42 days ago | |

Phones are perfectly capable of accessing websites. I think a lot of the shift here has to do with companies aggressively pushing apps because apps are more profitable, which in turn trains users to expect apps.

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | | |

Sorry, there are by faaaar not as much useable mobile websites than crappy mobile websites - most mobile websites are not really optimized, more like "just let us deploy some custome mobile CSS and people will use it" style

socalgal2 42 days ago | |

I’d be happy to use the app if they didn’t suck. The websites have more info and the browser is more capable by default. Like by default I can select any text I see, an address to copy into a calendar, a phone number to send to someone else, a name I want to paste into a search engine. an app is the opposite, by default nothing is selectable and I’m at the mercy of the nearly universally bad UX designer’s whims

scorpionfeet 42 days ago | |

My company corporate card requires an app because it has an Authenticator to access the website. I tried the ole “but I only have a flip phone” and they said there was no other option. The bastards forced my hand.

neuronflux 42 days ago | | |

So they issued you a company provided phone for this work specific functionality?

antiframe 41 days ago | | |

Why would the company only issue you a flip phone if the Authenticator the require doesn't run on it?

graemep 42 days ago | | |

There are authenticator extensions for web browsers.

dlcarrier 42 days ago | |

I don't see any evidence that is a user-driven change.

For years now, often multiple times with the save vendor, I've been installing some vendors software, using it to complete a purchase that I had started in a web interface, then uninstalling the software, all so I could take advantage of ann unrealistically good promotion. I'm not talking about the type of savings that might be in an exceptionally good holiday promotion, that eats into most of, if not all of, the margin in the transaction. I'm talking about the type of promotion that would be used to promote a credit card, banking account, or gambling platform-- the kind of promotion that costs months worth of income from a customer but is worthwhile because the customer will be milked for years to come.

This appears to be more related to modern security features that lock the vendor out of your computer, but lock you out of your phone, shifting which interface gives the vendor the advantage in future transactions.

bartilg 42 days ago | |

Even on mobile I find the requirement for app installation to be an irritating requirement. Many of these mobile apps are much larger than they need to be, and clutter the user experience. Throw in excessive push notifications, and in many cases I would like to just go to a website for services I use infrequently.

InitialLastName 42 days ago | | |

Seriously, push notifications, requests to review the app, gratuitous permissions, ads that bypass my ad-blocker. Why would I want to do this?

dfxm12 42 days ago | |

I think what most people don't get is that an app is a gateway to get way more personal data of the user than the browser. I'm distrustful of any "app only" service for this reason. I think the article goes into more detail about other good reasons. What you're suggesting isn't a talking point because it's not pertinent.

This isn't about a user's age, or mobiles. You can use Firefox on your smartphone. It's about digital literacy in terms of security and privacy. No matter how old you are, you do have to be taught that you're the product of these services, not just the customer. You have to be taught why that matters and how to combat it.

chrneu 41 days ago | |

a few years ago I stopped using social media to interact with fans. One thing I realized is that no matter how i use my blog to present a story, 90% of users simply dont interact with content in a meaningful way.

The reason I mention social media is all the apps operate the same way: the user swipes up or down, left or right, double taps and moves on. A website or blog or interactive content requires interaction, it requires thinking, it requires the possibility of a mistake. Those things make most users never click more than once on a website. Once a website goes beyond the first page most users leave.

It's really weird how folks are conditioned to do the least amount of effort in everything and then we complain when things are confusing. Convenience is a disease.

CivBase 42 days ago | |

You're right... but I think you have incorrectly conflated "web" with "desktop". Websites work perfectly fine on smartphones when they are designed to do so. I'm using HN on my phone's web browser right now to type this comment. I don't need an app for HN.

I don't have many apps on my phone because I've found I simply don't need them. There are basically only two cases where I use apps:

1. When I want push notifications

2. When I want to use local files

tosti 42 days ago | | |

If Android, try going into accessibility settings and set display size to maximum. Then see if you still like HN and many other websites with shitty unresponsive CSS.

nitwit005 42 days ago | |

Young people are the ones who claim they are most likely to abandon a purchase if they have to install an app: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/02/15/91-of-u...

neonstatic 41 days ago | |

> For them: The "Smartphone is the internet", while for most of us the "Smartphone is an extension of the internet from our desktops" that we were used to

Yes! My zoomer girlfriend tuned her phone to be work ready. Unless she has to, she'd be working on the phone. I would never do that. To me the phone is uncomfortable. To her, it's the small, comfortable thing she knows better than the computer.

jliptzin 42 days ago | |

I still remember when everyone was saying the only way to access a service would be through its AOL keyword.

There is still no better interface than the command line.

josephcsible 42 days ago |

Hall of shame:

* Reddit won't let you read "unreviewed" content on mobile web (but will on desktop web)

* PayPal won't let you pick your 5% rewards category, or set up balance auto-replenish without their app

* Robinhood Banking won't let you see your credit card statement or pay your balance without their app

* Instagram won't let you share posts as stories without their app

* SeatGeek won't let you attend events without their app (no will call, mailed tickets, print at home, or mobile web)

leros 42 days ago |

I have an app that is literally just a wrapper around the website. The mobile website and the mobile app are the exact same experience.

Before I built the app, people were constantly asking me to build a mobile app. Yes, I had a PWA but people still wanted an app.

I thought it was kind of silly but I eventually built that wrapper app. It immediately got thousands of downloads, users upgrading to paid plans increased by 10x, and app users have way better metrics that website users.

It's pretty interesting, but as a website owner, having an app is valuable.

akshatjiwan 42 days ago |

That's my stance as well. Unless the website is completely broken or the devs force me to download the app by blocking features on the website I prefer the web.

With responsive design becoming mainstream I'm fine with using my browser for 90% of my internet work. In some cases like Google docs it's painful to use the web version so I just use the app.

EDIT: I wish they'd add a console to mobile web browsers though.

happytoexplain 42 days ago |

My experience might be the minority, but I have found that 95% of the time, when an app is available on both web and native mobile, the native mobile version is significantly better - usually not because it's a fantastic app or has more features, but rather because the web version is more buggy/slow/confusing.

Whether I prefer an app to be web or native is purely based on the use case (I probably would choose native for a dozen use cases and web for the remaining one million use cases), but that's orthogonal to the fact of which one is actually better.

Edit: And to be clear, I'm not referring to cases where the web app is purposefully restricted or injected with dark patterns to drive users to native. Even if you ignore those cases, this pattern still stands in my experience. Though, that doesn't mean there is no indirect quality bias, e.g. more money spent on the native devs than the web devs.

tuckerman 42 days ago |

The site that irks me the most here is New York Times. Opening an article in the mobile browser often has a toast over the bottom third of the article to open it in their app for "a better experience". I struggle to think how nytimes isn't a perfect fit for a site over an app. The only frustrating experience I have with the web version that would be better in the app is not seeing that that pop-up.

skybrian 42 days ago | |

Having signed up for the New York Times recently, they're surprisingly hostile towards new customers:

- Autoplaying videos on the front page with no pause button. I expect video from CNN, but not a newspaper. That's not what I'm there for.

- They send you many "introductory" emails with no way to unsubscribe.

I mostly gave up on the front page, but it's marginally useful for reading the occasional article linked to from elsewhere.

ethagnawl 42 days ago | |

I recently signed up for a membership (you can now supposedly cancel without making a phone call; WaPo has officially died in darkness) and this has been driving me mad, too.

If I'm paying for your service, you should not be degrading my experience using UX anti-patterns in any way, for any reason.

xixixao 42 days ago | |

Also they only have dark mode in the app, even though the app is (or was) clearly not native anyway.

8cvor6j844qw_d6 42 days ago |

Web browser is a sandbox by default. Worst a sketchy site does is eat a tab, less if you run an adblocker. Native app? Background processes, hardware ID shenanigans, your contacts, location. The whole buffet.

MetaWhirledPeas 42 days ago |

Browsers don't allow notifications if you don't have the site open. Browser ads can get blocked by browser extensions. Browsers make it harder to have an icon for a site/service directly on the home screen. Browsers make it harder to get extensive permissions. Browsers allow content to displayed without first being run through an approval process.

For companies these are all downsides but for me they are all upsides. It really is us vs them when it comes to apps vs browsers. The only reason they offer websites at all is out of fear of losing a big chunk of users.

jeroenhd 42 days ago | |

Browsers most definitely do allow for notifications if you don't have the site open. I use that feature all the time and it works perfectly.

Google Chrome does seem to catch spam sites that abuse notification permissions to send ads, though, so for a certain category of crapware websites aren't an option.

MetaWhirledPeas 42 days ago | | |

Darn as I wrote that I doubted myself.

karimf 42 days ago |

This is my stance as well, but keep in mind that a lot of people have the opposite preference.

They didn't grow up with the world wide web. They only started using technology when Android and iPhone was popular. They only know Whatsapp, Youtube, TikTok. They're not used to using the browser.

There's a meme that "Gen Z Kids Don't Understand How File Systems Work" [0]

So, it'll depend on your target audiences.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30253526

mghackerlady 42 days ago | |

There's a reason the "small web" is having a revival among these kids, because they increasingly haven't experienced a real web to begin with. Circa ~2010, the web effectively died in the mainstream since Google decided it wasn't worth showing. Platforms become a thing, and despite being web-based, are practically their own intranets that use the web as a cross platform zero install delivery platform

ragnese 42 days ago | |

When you say "meme", it sounds like it might not be true. But, a few years ago I handed my stepson a USB flash drive with some files on it, he plugged it into his laptop and the very first thing he did was launch Google Chrome and then not have any clue what to do to access the files (it was a Windows laptop).

simonw 42 days ago |

A few years ago I had an interesting experience at a company where I was working on a new prototype iPhone app and asked people around the office to install it... and a surprising number of people didn't want to do it because their phone was full already and they didn't want to delete photos in order to try a new app.

Made me realize that for a lot of people who get cheaper phones with less storage installing a new app is actually a pretty big decision.

ben_w 42 days ago | |

I should've thought of that, given how often I offload photos from my phone to my mac, but somehow this didn't even cross my mind before now, so thanks for sharing the anecdote :)

crsl 42 days ago |

I also find that because the web version is worse in order to push you to download the app, it is a good way to not get sucked into endlessly scrolling. Get in, do what you need, and get out because of bad experience.

prosaic-hacker 42 days ago |

I will cast my vote for mobile websites over apps on phones. For personal choice reasons I have always had a "budget" phone with less memory and storage (and less cost) than a flagship phone. I also kept them running for years.

At the end of the cycle I can barely run the base phone let alone the menagerie of apps the world would like me to run.

I have opted out of app only service such as a Loyalty programs that forced me to transfer point from a partner only if I installed an app on my phone. They have enough info on me from purchase, they don't need more. (I even offer my card to strangers in the grocery cash if they did not have the loyalty card so they would get a discount and I would get a list of products I never buy in my loyalty list. Its a small, willful act of rebellion )

wisemanwillhear 42 days ago | |

I decided to operate on a older budget phone for a while when my phone died outside of my planned budget and timeline for replacing it. By far the greatest problem was managing storage space. Except for core productivity apps, if a website option wasn't offered I was never going to be one of their users.

troupo 42 days ago | |

> I will cast my vote for mobile websites over apps on phones. For personal choice reasons I have always had a "budget" phone with less memory and storage (and less cost) than a flagship phone. I also kept them running for years.

Then, unfortunately, apps are a better choice for such phones (unless the app itself is just a thin webview wrapper). These days too many websites would fry a budget phone.

Obligatory: The Performance Inequality Gap https://infrequently.org/2025/11/performance-inequality-gap-...

everdrive 42 days ago |

And if the only option is an app, then I'm not interested in your product / store / company.

Larrikin 42 days ago | |

If the app can be replaced by a website the app is useless. The web is not as powerful as an app and you will miss out on emerging tech. Facebook doesn't actually need an app, but I can not unlock my door, tap to pay, or connect to a specific selection of speakers in my home on a website.

everdrive 42 days ago | | |

100% of the emerging tech you listed either allows for a hacking / warrant / data leakage risk or is else so decadent I don't know how to respond. I don't want any of it.

functional_dev 42 days ago | |

I am with you here.. there is actually name for why companies do this. They are not pushing app because it is better, but because browser tab cannot lock you in.

Mapped it out here if curious - https://vectree.io/c/enshittification-how-digital-platforms-...

joshstrange 42 days ago |

The sad reality is people _want_ apps and the people paying for web/apps to be built also want apps (even before we talk about tracking/ad-blocking reasons).

I too love the web, but throughout my career the idea of web-first/web-only has been DOA. There is some level of perceived prestige from having an app.

I've told this story countless times but on multiple occasions I've written cross-platform apps using web technology. Throughout the development process, I have urged or even begged the stakeholders to try out the web-based version on their phone. It's almost identical. You just see the browser chrome in the web version. And yet it's not until I provide native builds that some people will even bother to look at.

I provide web interfaces as part of the package but I could probably skip that and no one would bat an eye (I won't though, it's practically free to do that alongside the native apps and I prefer it).

There are a handful of things you can only do, or only do well, in an app so I do understand that argument. Also, I find some PWA-advocates to clearly not be living in reality: "You can do X in a PWA" - only if you hate yourself and enjoy silly limitations that clients do not and will not understand or care about ("Just make it work, an app can do this!").

nitwit005 42 days ago | |

> The sad reality is people _want_ apps

I went to a gas station and they had someone offering to pay customers if they'd install their app. Discount gas for X months. No one seemed interested.

People do want apps for things they do quite often, but that's mostly social media or video games. The hassle of install and account setup simply exceeds the benefit of rarely used apps.

marxisttemp 42 days ago | |

Why is it sad to want an app?

Animats 42 days ago |

Unless you use it several times a day, downloading an "app" just gets in the way. You should never have to download an "app" for a one-time use.

We never went back to the restaurant in Cupertino where the table QR code tried to force downloading an app that onboarded you into a food delivery service. That restaurant was treating on-site customers as delivery orders with a very short delivery distance. The food wasn't very good, either.

zadikian 42 days ago | |

Would've left just from seeing a QR code on the table

abustamam 41 days ago |

I was helping my mom with the simple task of installing an app on her iPhone SE. "64 GB" of storage (about 20 of which taken by OS and other system files). It turned into a two hour long slog of me determining which apps she needs, and of the ones she needs, how to back up her data to icloud so Instagram and other apps aren't taking 500mb each on her phone.

This standard of every random website having an app and poorly managing cache and storage needs to stop. My mom can't begin to even understand how to fix it, and worse, she didn't even recognize half the apps I mentioned to her, which probably means she mindlessly clicked install on a bunch of random websites.

We do not need more app bloat on our devices, especially if they are just thin wrappers over your web app.

1970-01-01 42 days ago |

My analog is something along the lines of "please build a small room in your house, closet-sized at first, but with enough room to grow to twice that as we add features, so we can give you the best possible temperature and weather information. Also, we need access to your full contacts so you can share how you feel about the weather more easily, with just a push! Also also, we need a hot microphone in your closet, so you can shop our umbrella store by just talking to our AI assistant! Also also also, your privacy is important to us."

It only needs to be "an app" if it is using hardware to do it's main job. There is never another reason to make it an app.

foresto 42 days ago | |

> It only needs to be "an app" if it is using hardware to do it's main job.

Even then, there's a good chance that web a API exists for the required hardware, so it still doesn't need to be an app.

pwr1 42 days ago |

Yep. If your product needs me to install an app for a one-off thing, you've probably already lost me.

The crazy part is how many teams still treat the web as the demo and the app as the “real” product. For a lot of stuff it's the opposite now.

I know there are edge cases, but most of the time “download our app” just means “please care way more about our product than you currently do.”

davebren 41 days ago | |

>> The crazy part is how many teams still treat the web as the demo and the app as the “real” product.

But that's just the technical reality of what can be implemented on web vs. native because you are within an ephemeral browser tab and have all the restrictions that come with that.

pwr1 41 days ago | | |

Native has its place for sure — camera, sensors, offline, background tasks. But web has come a long way and for a lot of products it's genuinely enough. The issue is teams defaulting to "build an app" without asking whether the install friction is actually worth it for what they're building.

senfiaj 42 days ago |

Sometimes apps lack the features of the web versions. For example, I wanted to translate a document on Android. When I was trying to open Google translator website, the system was redirecting me to the app. Unfortunately, I couldn't see document translation feature in this app. Could still open the website in incognito mode. This is really maddening me.

jeffbee 42 days ago | |

Strava is an example where to enjoy all the features of the platform you have to use the app for some and the browser for others. Neither has all of them.

lrvick 42 days ago |

I had a doctor tell me that I had to buy an Android or iOS phone (I own neither) and install their new app, or they would be unable to continue seeing me as a patient.

Found a new doctor, because anyone that thinks this way I do not trust my heath to.

Absolutely no one will make me own a cell phone or install corpo spyware. It is still actually a choice.

asow92 42 days ago |

I will not download them on a train, I will not download them on a plane, I will not download them in a box, I will not download them with Firefox. I will not download them Sam I am.

amusingimpala75 42 days ago |

How much of the native app push is to bypass ad blockers? If you’re just using a browser plugin like AdGuard or uBO it can’t block in a dedicated app unless you replace it with AGH or PiHole, can’t help but wonder if that plays a role as well

aembleton 40 days ago | |

I expect a lot of people who run adblockers on mobile, also configure their DNS or use a VPN to block ads. On Android, you can't even get an adblocker on Chrome, which is the browser most users and using.

davebren 41 days ago | |

As a developer web never really felt like real programming to me, because it wasn't designed to be when browsers were just displaying html pages. So it took an evolving set of hacks to get something like web applications running.

agdexai 42 days ago |

The restaurant QR menu situation is peak 'we installed an app for the app' energy. I scanned a code expecting a menu and instead got a Play Store redirect. Just let me see the food.

The worst offenders are services that literally work fine in mobile Safari but pop a banner saying 'for the best experience download our app' covering half the screen. The web version is already the app, you just painted a door on the wall.

zvitiate 42 days ago | |

> The restaurant QR menu situation is peak 'we installed an app for the app' energy. I scanned a code expecting a menu and instead got a Play Store redirect. Just let me see the food.

Now you've triggered me lol. At that point I'll ask for a physical menu, and leave if they don't have one. And no, I'm not going to look at my friend's phone. It's ridiculous!

bbminner 42 days ago |

I asked the same question a few years ago, and the answer I arrived at is that the app has, by default, more permissions (not only technical but also conventional) to collect data, send push notifications, and otherwise harass the user.

tcoff91 42 days ago | |

iOS apps have to request permission from user to send push and for basically every other problematic permission.

saltcured 42 days ago | | |

I'm only familiar with Android, and it bothers me that I cannot exert complete sandbox control over every app.

I think I should be able to completely cut it off from the network and/or local storage; prevent it from running even though it is installed; and prevent it from having any personalizing information about me, my movements, my network connectivity status or patterns, my device usage (i.e. screen on versus locked, any proxy like battery state of charge), etc.

I am very reluctant to install apps because I see that the platform is designed for needs and a mindset that is not my own. I do not see it as essential or preferable that an app be able to monetize my usage or really gather any telemetry at all.

denysvitali 42 days ago |

I understand the user point of view, but some web UIs nowadays are so bad and the app so good that I'm not sure this always holds true.

I do agree that this seems to be exception rather than the rule - so having both is actually nice IMHO.

jedberg 42 days ago |

While I sympathize with the author, and feel the same way, I think Apple/Google have some blame here. They make certain simple things only possible in the apps, because the APIs are not exposed via the web.

Notifications is a big obvious one. Not sure if they've changed it since I last looked into it, but having an app installed was the only way to send a notification to someone for a long time.

Lihh27 42 days ago | |

> having an app installed was the only way to send a notification

that used to be true, especially on ios. but web push has existed there for a while now for home screen web apps.

so that explains some of the history... doesn't really excuse today's habit of shipping the web as a second-class client.

graemep 42 days ago | | |

Do people allow website notifications? One argument I have heard raised in favour of mobile apps is that people are more likely to give an app notification permission.

plagiarist 42 days ago | |

That's one of the main reasons to not install an app. Extremely few apps are able to limit their notifications to actually transactional events. As soon as they have the capability they start spamming away.

account42 40 days ago | |

Chrome has notifications at least in the desktop version and it's the most horrible thing ever as noobs end up with tons of notifications from random scam websites.

sloum 42 days ago | |

Nah: https://www.magicbell.com/blog/using-push-notifications-in-p...

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | |

Reg. Notifications:

Isnt there are similar feature in iOS browser as in Firefox these "desktop notifications" that some webpages request?

dyarosla 42 days ago | |

Apple still doesnt give you the right dimensions for a page that switches between portrait and landscape.

davebren 41 days ago | |

How are you going to get a push notification from a site after the tab is closed?

jedberg 41 days ago | | |

The web notification standard supports this. They have since adopted it, but it took them a long time to do so.

runjake 42 days ago |

I specifically do this with apps like Discord, because it seemed like every time I launched the app, there was a 200mb+ update.

I can just use the web version instead and skip all that, along with the memory usage (for the most part).

Jaxan 42 days ago | |

I find it so annoying that certain apps update every single time I open them. Why can’t they build something more stable?

runjake 41 days ago | | |

Because, CI[1] and "Move fast and break things"

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_integration

johanyc 42 days ago | |

I do the same with discord. Idk why the app is so huge

krb5 42 days ago |

The cookie/session isolation is underrated. Half the reason services push you to the app is because the mobile browser experience for juggling multiple web apps is genuinely bad — not because the web can't do it, but because nobody's made it comfortable. I got annoyed enough to put together a small webview manager that keeps a few web apps in tabs with separate cookies: https://github.com/theoden8/webspace_app (yes, it's written in flutter)

pcorsaro 42 days ago |

I've been running a video game collection site for years. The number one request I get from people is to build an app. I've worked so hard on making the mobile version of the site to be just as functional as the desktop version, and I don't really understand why people want an app over just using the web version. I sometimes wonder if I should just do it to see if I'm missing out on market share, but I don't really want to have to maintain two different user interfaces.

quesera 42 days ago | |

Similar situation here.

My take on it is that frequent users perceive apps as desktop launchers/shortcuts.

They don't care about the difference between app and web, per se, but the bookmarking situation in mobile browsers is awful (desktop too, honestly), and an app presents a convenient launcher for the service/site/data they want.

Adding a springboard launcher for a PWA is easy but still apparently more frictional than installing an app.

sloum 42 days ago | |

You could add features to make it a PWA and explain to users how to save it t their desktop. I used ProtonMail for years that way (I do not have a smartphone anymore, so no longer do so).

mixtureoftakes 42 days ago | |

building and maintaining a simple webview app might be easier than you think.

if you ever end up making one im very very curious about how much market share that would gain

sergiotapia 42 days ago |

Mostly I am quite tired of the 30 step onboarding funnel all apps have. I was trying out a fitness app and the second I opened it, I was about step 9 into it and I just deleted the app.

fer 42 days ago | |

Only to find a paywall after going through all the hoops. I'd install an app to slap whoever made that decision.

asah 42 days ago |

Folding phones are the big/small screen compromise. One you fold, nobody goes back.

The samsung fold7 in particular is the same thickness/weight as slab phones, but unfolds to become a tablet. Please don't vote if you haven't held one. The compromise is cost, durability (dust, water), some battery life & some camera. Huge gains in productivity and night-to-day difference consuming video and photos. Google Maps FTW.

craftkiller 42 days ago | |

> durability (dust, water)

Not just dust and water but folding screens are plastic with a mohs hardness of 2-3, as opposed to normal phones with glass screens which are a 6-7 hardness. I like having phones that can't be permanently damaged by pressing my fingernail a little hard into it.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hgg4YEdPak&t=140s

Another example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uS90jakOuw&t=107s

I also can trivially replace the screen on my regular phone at home, whereas I'd have to get a folding phone professionally repaired for many hundreds of dollars.

kjkjadksj 42 days ago | |

Still runs the kneecapped mobile os

palata 42 days ago |

Those are valid arguments but I like apps better, for other reasons. Mostly security.

When I use, say, the Signal app:

- I can audit it, download it or even compile it myself from sources

- Once I have installed it, Signal doesn't get to change it "in my back"

- As a result, I don't need to trust Signal for the end-to-end encryption, which is the whole point of end-to-end encryption.

When I use a webapp, say ProtonMail:

- Every time I load the webapp, it is downloaded from the Proton servers. Even if I once stop to audit it, next time I load it, it may totally be a different codebase (that e.g. adds a backdoor, potentially just for me, and just this one time).

- I need to trust that Proton doesn't inject a backdoor to extract my key, then end-to-end encryption is useless. I could also trust Proton to not read my emails, right?

- If a webapp is served by a CDN, I have to trust that the CDN doesn't tamper with it. Actually Meta has an extension made for verifying that for WhatsApp Web. The extension is a bulky way to make sure that you loaded what Meta wanted you to load (i.e. that Cloudflare did not tamper with it), but it DOES NOT ensure that Meta did not inject a backdoor just for you, just this time.

appsoftware 42 days ago |

I don't understand it from the app developers point of view. Having to pay app store cuts over basic card processing fees. I understand the appeal of access to a market, like selling on eBay gets you eyeballs. But once you have a customer using their app, what does the app give you that a PWA doesn't unless you need access to specific sensors / file system access patterns etc?

hectdev 42 days ago | |

As an app developer it comes down to the full access to phone APIs and the smoothest app experience. The more biased opinion is rooted in preference for the native language over web languages. And I recognize this is an opinion that is self-preservation in nature but it is what it is.

But I'll also say some apps don't really need to be apps (like ordering food from one specific store) but I won't complain about having those apps if it is a convenience.

rchaud 42 days ago | |

The vast majority of apps come from companies where the app developer has little to no say in how things work. Amazon, Walmart, Instacart, Uber, Ebay, Shein, etc are certainly not paying Apple 30% for purchases made inside the app. They also operate at a scale where they get bulk rates from MC/Visa on processing fees.

rickdg 42 days ago | |

For years, Apple has muffled PWAs under a pillow. No one knows that you can add them to your homescreen or how that unlocks the possibility of getting push notifications. You also lose any stored data when you go from Safari to an homescreen web app.

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | | |

I guess this is by intention since with a PWA you would have "near app experience" but for free?

bombcar 42 days ago | | |

How do you add them? I am using https://actualbudget.org as a Safari page, and it works surprisingly well when "off network" - but a button on the home screen would be nicer.

skyberrys 42 days ago | |

I recently switched for m the developer mindset of build websites for everything to make apps if I can. My logic is that an app never needs to go back and forth with me, it's something the user can have without me managing hosting and constantly having a relationship with the user.

chistev 42 days ago | |

Don't you need a certain level of convincing for the average person to use a PWA?

tbolt 42 days ago |

Agree with the article. I’m increasingly jaded by the state of the web.

Something that has been happening for a long time on iOS Safari that I only recently realized: pinch to zoom on sites like Reddit, instagram, shopping sites, and many others cause what I’m calling “website seizures.” Where I try to zoom in and half the time the page reloads completely or triggers a reload but ends up throwing an error.

narag 42 days ago | |

Ouch! Netscape 4.7 reloaded...

parpfish 42 days ago |

On one hand, I don’t know why startups make apps. It requires more devs and keeping everything at parity is tough with desktop, iOS, android, mobile web. Seems pragmatic to just simplify and use web.

But on the other hand, I’d love to pay you $0.99 if it meant I could get an ad free version of your little widget and I’m not sure how to do that easily with web

ArchieScrivener 42 days ago |

Stop asking me for access to my contacts, microphone, location, or permission to send me 5 kinds of useless notifications.

tannedNerd 42 days ago |

This also skips over with some hand waving that a lot of mobile app uses cases simply can’t be replicated with web sites. Take gps or smart home control as two easy of the top of my head example the author skipped too.

Also the fact that people here would rather have their info stored in the cloud vs local on device is interesting.

ssiddharth 42 days ago | |

I do mention cases where the browser model doesn't work, like accessing Lidar sensors. Just didn't want to bloat the post with too many examples. But I totally agree with you on this front: not everything can be done as a PWA.

AlBugdy 42 days ago |

Being required to use an Android app sucks and is annoying, but an AOSP VM would solve the issue. Perhaps MITM-ing the app would be harder than MITM-ing a site without reversing the app. And not everyone has the hardware resources for an Android VM.

But for me the main issues with "you need our app" BS is that they don't give you the apk but tell you to download it from the Google Play Store. They don't give you the source for the apk as well, as if it's such a huge trade secret how some shitty API works. The worst offenders ask for all the attestation shit (unrooted phone and so on). That's what's wrong with apps vs sites, not just the format itself. We should fight for FOSS apks with no attestation if companies want to invest so heavily in apps.

chistev 42 days ago |

My Google Chrome app is by far the most used app on my phone. If you catch me at a random moment on my phone, chances are I'm on Chrome.

Sometimes the mobile app experience is better than the mobile browser for me, though. Examples are Twitter, Spotify, Upwork, Google Keep Notes.

If I'm on my computer I don't even download the apps, I just use the browser. It just feels more convenient.

I haven't thought much about why they all feel good on my laptop browser while some apps offer better experience on mobile.

Edit: It's also why I keep procrastinating on getting into mobile app development. I just generally prefer web experience. With some exceptions as already stated here.

chistev 42 days ago | |

I take back my comment on Twitter being better on mobile apps. I just tried it on my mobile browser and it doesn't have that stupid bug (feature?) where you leave the detail page of a tweet and the app automatically takes you to the top and you miss where you were initially.

tonymet 42 days ago |

App developers are not living up to the expectations and needs that these services have in our lives. MyQ for example, is a Garage Door opener . It’s a key. It needs to meet the responsiveness and reliability expectations of a key. Instead, the app is slow, the buttons often freeze , the app logs itself out without notifying you – so in the most urgent situation you don’t have access to open your door.

Even some of the better ones don’t take themselves seriously. Buggy, hostile UIs , slow.

Honestly I don’t believe most of the producers are even using their own apps. I’m able to discover critical bugs within 2 minutes using nearly any app.

tracker1 42 days ago |

I've more than once had a company reply to a bug report about their website, "did you try using the app instead." To which I usually reply, "why would I trust your site with direct access to my phone when you can't make a website that works correctly?"

That's just my thinking... I try not to install apps most of the time, I don't want them to have access or even the greater chance at breaking security/isolation. On a similar vein, I still can't believe that LinkedIn didn't get permanently banned from Apple and Google stores when they broke security to spy on emails.

jonathanstrange 42 days ago |

I think it's best to ignore this kind of user feedback and focus on the users who really want the service or product and are willing download an app if necessary or use the web version if necessary. Popular opinions on apps/web and desktop/mobile change every few years. I remember when Facebook became deeply unpopular and was afraid of going under because they didn't manage to provide a native app.

Because of the walled gardens, duplication of efforts, and waste of resources I'd personally favor if apps died out but that is never going to happen because they always have better platform integration.

pitbred 42 days ago |

We're all here debating the friction of downloading apps versus the convenience of the mobile web, but we might be missing the bigger picture. Both are UI-heavy paradigms designed for humans to click things. In a few years, we won't care if a service has a slick React app or a native iOS build. We’ll just tell our AI agents: 'Book that flight' or 'Fix my billing issue,' and they’ll talk to the APIs directly. The era of 'interfaces for humans' is peaking; the era of 'headless services for agents' is just beginning. Interfaces are becoming a legacy tax.

threatofrain 42 days ago | |

Explanation and summarization without visual interactables is so much harder to do. A person can talk to an interface but I don't know how many people would like natural language back.

madeofpalk 42 days ago | |

Maybe. You’ll need to overcome DoorDash not wanting to give up the UI as a chance to upsell services.

gpvos 41 days ago |

My bank is now doing this: for a few newish and not-quite-essential services you can only use their app, the rest you can still do via the web.

The same has been going on with radio and podcasts for a while: e.g., the BBC, or my newspaper, wants me to install their app to listen to their streams or podcasts, while I much rather concentrate all my listening in one central radio or podcast app for all my sources. Note that a system for paid-only podcast subscriptions via generic podcast apps actually exists, but I've never used it since no podcast maker I listen to actually uses it.

sequoia 42 days ago |

Though I agree with the author & use the web version of various applications, there is another side to this. The author says s/he uses plugins to disable ads and so on. If its an ad supported site for which one does not pay, this is tantamount to expecting the provider to run the service for no compensation/revenue at all.

Furthermore, to say platform owners don't care about offending such users would be an understatement: platform owners likely want to actively repel such users. Why serve someone who neither pays a fee nor agrees to be shown ads?

beardyw 42 days ago |

There is also the lack of support for bookmarks. I value the ability to reach a part I am interested in quickly.

When Chrome started supporting PWAs you couldn't bookmark the content at all. They seem to have fixed that now.

ryandrake 42 days ago |

I've got an old-ish phone, so in most cases, I can't download your app even if I wanted to. You deliberately set your minimum iOS deployment version to be higher than what my phone can even install. So I have to go to your web site or just stop doing business with your ass. Just because your developers decided that developing for older phones is too hard to figure out, or it takes too much effort, and they'd rather just cut us off.

realusername 42 days ago | |

I think the blame is on Apple here, you can't support older devices even if you wanted to. (And it's the same on Android)

ryandrake 42 days ago | | |

You can support older devices, but admittedly Apple does not make it super easy to find. The easy "happy path" in Xcode is to only support the most recent OS versions.

cute_boi 42 days ago |

We should blame Apple for creating incentives that let it take a 30% cut from apps. I don't know why governments, especially foreign governments, allow Apple app store to operate in their countries.

h4kunamata 41 days ago |

This and thanks to GrapheneOS!

I have ditched a ton of apps, from Youtube, to X, Discord and what not.

Apps is the biggest trap, it grants techs full access to your device, unless you are running GrapheneOS of course.

Web version works just fine, faster, it is not bloated like the app and won't drain your battery since there is no app running in the background.

The only app I still have is Instagram when I wanna upload a video to my car account because they refuse to do that via browser.

If I place expects me to download an app to order, I am eating elsewhere.

wbobeirne 42 days ago |

The author touches on this in the last section, but I'd reframe this a different way. The natural conclusion for a company who wants to funnel you to the app is, "the web version is a-OK? Let's make the web version worse."

I'd rather see this framed as, "if you don't have a high functioning web version, I don't need to use your service." Gimping my preferred medium will lose me as a customer. If enough people draw that line, "enshittifying" your web app should hurt your metrics, not help. That way maintaining a good web version is looked at as a long-term necessity, not a top of funnel.

someguyornotidk 41 days ago |

Slightly tangential but is there a way to download a PWA permanently on a mobile device and have it remain indefinitely even if the upstream site goes offline or changes?

Every time I try to load a PWA on my phone from my dev laptop, it breaks after a few weeks (days?) for no obvious reason. I investigated this for a bit but eventually gave up and went the electron/wrapper app route.

If we can find a real fix for this stupid issue, I would be more than happy to focus on PWAs.

gonzalohm 42 days ago |

I would be fine having an app for everything if:

1. Phone storage wasn't paid at an absurdly premium price. Sometimes the option with just higher storage may be $300 more.

2. High speed Internet was available cheaply everywhere.

If I'm in a town in the middle of nowhere. I'm not going to use my expensive data plan (because in the US mobile data is extremely expensive compared to EU) To download a 500Mb app that will take 5 minutes to download because the Internet is slow just to pay for parking

jeroenhd 42 days ago | |

For some reason, app sizes seem to have exploded, but especially on iPhones. Maybe it's the fact cheap Androids are still being used but I was surprised to find out how many 50MB Android apps were in 200MB iPhone apps.

When it took ages to download the same app to my work iPhone as I was downloading to my normal Android I thought there was something wrong with the iPhone at first, but it was literally spending five times the data to download what seemed to be an identical app.

There's something to be said for downloading a 50MiB app to save yourself from downloading 1MiB every time you pull out the website, but with modern app sizes, things are getting ridiculous.

rivalout 41 days ago |

I ran into the same “friends are too nice / surveys are too vague” problem and what helped was testing my landing page copy with people who don’t know me at all. I’ve been using TractionWay to throw up a few headline/message variations and get 4–5 brutally honest takes back in a few hours, plus they flag folks who’d actually want to hear more so I’m not just collecting opinions in a vacuum.

_blk 42 days ago |

The whole premise doesn't make much sense (to me) if the app doesn't have an inherent benefit over a website. Don't tell me that all the app first people would rather have a web wrapped app for every website they visit? Seems to be more of a "we can get more metrics out of app users than website users" thing so they intentionally break the mobile website to aggressively push an app. #LinkedIn #Facebook

moffers 42 days ago |

It’s a little tough these days. With AI and scraping, running an open webapp/website is now more expensive than ever before. My friends and I have launched a product in the last few months and decided to focus on mobile first and wait to develop a webapp simply because we couldn’t feel we could optimize the costs of open webapp while we have so few resources.

EMM_386 42 days ago | |

How expensive can it be?

I just randomly looked at Railway and for $20 a month you get a whole lot. I've hosted many a web project (successful personal projects and enterprise projects alike) and I don't see a large barrier to entry on "hosting a website" here.

Blocking AI scrapers and crawlers is not a huge ordeal. Planning for a unicorn before just putting a product up isn't the way to go.

https://railway.com/pricing

mrweasel 42 days ago | | |

> Blocking AI scrapers and crawlers is not a huge ordeal.

If you have content they want, then it is a huge ordeal. You can pay some one like CloudFlare to take care of it for you, but if you can't or won't make a deal with those types of companies, it's going to take up a significant chunk of your time.

KellyCriterion 42 days ago | |

Before AI I regularly consumed a larger international news aggregator ran by a single person.

Then with ChatGPT he had to enshittify his website with all these cloudflare capture stuff, making the site leeesssssssss fun to use; when complaining he mailed me that AI scrapers are slashing his servers

mancerayder 42 days ago |

I can't type on a smartphone. Even as I wrote this, c became a space, the word space started each time with an a, etc.

But on a keyboard I type hella fast.

Now, I also hate creating account after account, having all these applications needing to be installed with ads in them that I can't block or some permissions that I don't think it needs. F that.

johnea 41 days ago |

I fully agree. A web based UI is superior in every way.

This also means you don't have to be running this week's android version to use it, with all the increased surveillance consequences that implies.

But, as the article states, people who are actually paying attention are a small minority and an acceptable collateral damage to user numbers.

marxisttemp 42 days ago |

I won’t use your web app. The app version has better performance, lower memory usage, is more idiomatic and looks better.

Gimpei 42 days ago |

My gripe is how iOS allows these companies to constantly bug us to use their stupid apps. I ended up installing the NYTimes app, not because I use it, but just to shut it up. I switched to duck duck go because I was sick of being bugged to install chrome. How many times do I need to say no?

chistev 42 days ago | |

So that's how she feels about me?

cogman10 42 days ago |

I wish PWAs were more of a thing. That is actually what I'd use instead of installing a company app.

RRRA 41 days ago |

The worst thing about this is a company saying you need to lock yourself on one of the 2 proprietary platform that somehow didn't just wrap the web for apps and use a ridiculously small device you might own, but anyone on an open standard system can go F themselves...

micromacrofoot 42 days ago |

Many many people are downloading the apps, and this is pushing a lot of younger people into apps-first over native web experiences.

I think we should call on Apple and Google to make web apps/sites a more first-class experience, rather than ask app developers to stop going where the people are.

peterspath 42 days ago |

I have it the other way around. I want local first app. Don’t want everything in the cloud apps.

Luckily there is choice :)

dhedberg 42 days ago | |

I take this to be mainly about cloud services that can/could just as well be used in the browser instead, and where installing the app doesn't really allow you to meaningfully use it offline anyway. It's largely orthogonal to the question of local apps vs cloud services.

dyingkneepad 42 days ago |

I wish there was a version of this website that was simpler, more educated and that I could show to the "normies" who own business and insist on asking me to download their app (I'm looking at you, TKD school!). This one is too aimed at the cooks.

robshippr 42 days ago |

This is especially true for dev tools. Engineers already have 20 browser tabs open with dashboards, CI/CD, docs, and logs. The last thing anyone wants is another Electron app eating RAM in the background. The best tools meet you where you already are.

raverbashing 42 days ago |

One very egregious example: Moovit

Even with mobile FF and adblock their mobile website is completely unusable. Now ask me if I'm happy to download ther app if their website is a complete POS like that

The desktop website works "fine" for the most part though

apatheticonion 41 days ago |

Who does serious work on a phone?

I have found app-only experiences that cover looking for a job, looking for a house, doing accounting/personal finances.

How can you even stay organized or do any meaningful data entry on a phone?

denysvitali 41 days ago | |

I do: https://blog.denv.it/posts/im-happy-engineer-now/

Afftar 42 days ago |

Yes, the TC is right and I completely agree, but we all know the reason for forcing users to install an app: retention, ARPU and other metrics grow for this audience, and push notifications also help with that.

b8 42 days ago |

I trust the chrome sandbox and security more than a desktop or phone app.

FusionX 42 days ago |

I agree...except, I would've appreciated some self-awareness from the author. They represent a minority of the users, yet they fail to comprehend this simple fact.

For the large majority of users, phones are THE primary (if not only) device for their interaction with the internet. You can complain "them-lazy-brainrotting-GenZs" but some people don't have a choice. There are plenty of countries where a smartphone is the cheapest internet enabled device that a person can afford.

Secondly, the UX for "web browsing" on the phone is strictly worse compared to (well-made) apps. In fact, apps are the reason for the explosion in popularity of smartphones. And also the reason only android and iphone have survived the OS race (see windows phone and linux phones). So — much to my own disappointment — it does make sense for companies to treat mobile (app) users as first class citizens. You need to understand that you are not the target user anymore. And, yes it sucks.

That said, it does not justify the gradual enshittification, dark patterns and dopamine hacking that have been normalized in modern apps.

rkomorn 42 days ago | |

Are you implying with your last sentence that websites are less culpable of enshittification, dark patterns, and dopamine hacking?

Or are you including the web-based properties of "modern apps" in said apps?

devinsewell 42 days ago |

Nah u right, it is possible to do BLE debug stuff from browser, but my tool is so fire and china keeps downloading it 200x per day i had to add that $4.99 monthly subscription wall.

OptionOfT 41 days ago |

The web version would be a-ok if it wasn't artificially blocking me from consuming it when on mobile, like Yelp.

Or it's full of annoying popups to use the app, looking at you, Google.

jcalvinowens 42 days ago |

It's a waste of resources too. I've seen startups waste soooooo much time and effort on simple native apps that could trivially be webviews, it's tragic.

account42 40 days ago |

The real holy grail are native programs, especially ones divorced from the providers running the online services they interact with.

erelong 42 days ago |

Like you touched on, they're just trying to get you to make a small commitment to being in their walled garden and then they add on a bunch of other things

nathan_compton 42 days ago |

I don't get apps. Apart from Audible, I don't have any installed and don't use any. I've never enjoyed using smartphones to do anything.

sys_64738 41 days ago |

I don't want to install your spyware. Vivaldi has it right with the browser now where you have UI autohide. I hope for that to get to Android.

bryankaplan 42 days ago |

If the elevator was invented today, use of it would require an app which demands access to one’s contacts and microphone, and has a rating of 1.4 stars.

downrightmike 42 days ago |

To be perfectly honest, modern phone apps are so riddled with spyware that it would be unthinkable for a similar situation to have started on PCs.

k26dr 42 days ago |

The Politico website on Android has this issue. Can't login so can't read articles. Had to download app, but would prefer web page.

danabrams 42 days ago |

ios Native App > web app > android app > anything made with a cross platform toolkit like react native or flutter.

I would much prefer a really well-crafted ios Native App with extensive attention to detail than anything, even a web app made with similar detail (in most cases). And also ios apps are far more likely to receive that level of attention than just about anything else.

johnflan 42 days ago | |

> a really well-crafted ios Native App with extensive attention to detail Which seems to becoming a rare thing

7777777phil 42 days ago |

This sentiment will probably resonate with a lot of people here. I literally won’t use a service if they try to force me onto their app..

MiddleEndian 42 days ago | |

It's already been beaten into acceptance that I have to use the Ticketmaster app (shockingly awful) or Dice app (not quite as bad but still sucks) to get into a lot of music venues in Boston.

But at one club they wanted me to install another app just to check my coat. I elected to hide it under a some furniture instead lol

Devasta 42 days ago |

The web version being ok is a sign of the degradation of the desktop experience more than it is a sign of the capabilities of the web.

sowbug 42 days ago |

Still holding my breath for the app that puts up a dialog on every launch asking "would you like to try our web version?"

KoolKat23 42 days ago |

I at times wonder if my life would be easier if I were not so stubborn and just installed every app suggested along the way.

bcrescimanno 42 days ago |

Obligatory Dennis Reynolds / It's Always Sunny... thoughts on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzb355qT8RI

I honestly don't mind downloading apps for things I use all the time so long as the app isn't a nightmare. It's when I am having a single interaction with a brand (such as buying my wife a gift) and I'm bombarded with "it's better in the app" that drives me nuts.

I realize that I am perhaps not the target demographic of this app-centric culture; but, I cannot count the number of times in a week that I utter the phrase, "no, I don't want to download your app" as I try to accomplish what should be a simple task.

yieldcrv 42 days ago |

what's funnier is that this could have been written 10 years ago and the situation was the exact same

apps function more so as a checkbox for investors to take an organization seriously, as well as for the founder to self aggrandize and feel like their own app store presence means something. for devs it is functionally a make-work program.

docheinestages 42 days ago |

An app could offer a more stable identifier compared to an in-browser guest session which might have its cookies cleared.

grishka 41 days ago |

"The experience is better in our app". Yeah, right, and whose damn fault is that, I wonder?

bedroom_jabroni 42 days ago |

Anecdotally had the axios maintainer used the Zoom desktop app, he'd be used to seeing the "Open this link in the app" prompt on the call page and less likely to fall for the scam upon not seeing the same prompt when following the phishing link. I think there's some value in having the app installed for the extra validation.

dbvn 42 days ago |

Somehow the one feature I need to use is the one feature broken on the website... every time.

empyrrhicist 42 days ago |

If a website disrespects "request desktop site" and still tries to force you into an app... ugh.

Had this happen yesterday when someone sent me a link to something on AllTrails. If the service was good and the website was usable, I might have even considered getting the app for offline features. Not anymore - screw companies that do this.

tannedNerd 42 days ago | |

Why though?

If only 1% of your user base is accessing your maps through the website, you aren’t going to keep supporting it.

empyrrhicist 42 days ago | | |

I described my own attitude, obviously companies are going to do what they want.

In this case, AllTrails has a perfectly functional website which they allow users to access from computer web browsers, but they force mobile phones (even when in "request desktop site" mode) to redirect to the app. If a site breaks in that mode it's on the user - I'm specifically requesting to get access to something they already provide and being denied.

This is especially egregious given how many "apps" are just websites in a wrapper anyway.

I think that sucks, and I'm entitled to my opinion. Now get off my lawn.

cush 42 days ago |

It depends. The parking app example is an example of an app I want, for so many reasons

amelius 42 days ago |

Can't we run Android inside a browser these days?

WASM should be able to handle it now, I suppose.

Henchman21 41 days ago |

The smartphone and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

doug_durham 42 days ago |

I'm a huge supporter of the open web. However this issue was decided 16 year ago. If you recall the first push on smartphones were "web apps". Those sucked. The bottom line is that native apps provide a better user experience and that is why they became prevalent 16 years ago.

Flere-Imsaho 42 days ago | |

I feel the same. Take the Telegram app as an example: it's so slick, responsive. Even a simple button click doesn't work well on the web due to the long response time between clicking and seeing a response.

Additionally, apps allow for good offline functionality (for times when you're not near a cell tower), which I feel is important even with ubiquitous internet access in the 1st world.

The solution I feel is to have better sandboxing functionality in mobile Operating Systems.

ape4 42 days ago |

Can the "app" just load the mobile website. Then everyone is happy?

kazinator 41 days ago |

I can't search through the text in your app or copy paste out of it.

63stack 42 days ago |

Yes you will download the app because we will not offer a web version.

bigstrat2003 42 days ago | |

No, in that case I won't do business with you.

63stack 42 days ago | | |

Unfortunately you won't be able to submit any expenses then, because the company uses this other company who only offers an app for accounting.

villgax 42 days ago |

The government is supposed to be pushing for web as the default.

jesterson 42 days ago |

The only reason they want you to download their app is to farm more data about you. They will push you to huge extent just to collect more data.

To share an egregious example, Mercury (which is a great bank) sent KYC notice literally saying "we noticed you use app outside of declared locations" for one of my friends companies. And yes they push their app hard.

arnvald 42 days ago |

I actually enjoy having mobile apps for lots of use cases – travel, news, entertainment, utility bills, banking. I have probably around 100 apps on my iPhone right now and I'm fine with this number.

There are 2 things though that make me dislike mobile apps.

First, regularly logging me out. It's so frustrating, especially if the app does not support biometric login. I have a password manager, so I can log in rather quickly, but I just want to be logged in for months.

Second, webviews, I just can't understand mobile apps that render part of their content inside webviews. Like, either commit to having a proper native mobile experience or just let me use your website. One of the more annoying cases for me personally is NBA app. I'm searching for some stat, I open their website in a browser, it redirects me to the app, the app opens and then renders the same web page in a web view. What's even the point?!

kogasa240p 42 days ago |

Agreed, if you have a website I'll just use that.

WhiteOwlLion 42 days ago |

I use Twitter/X on web because the iOS so bad.

SunshineTheCat 42 days ago | |

Turns out if you use brave on iOS it auto-blocks all the ads too.

firefoxd 42 days ago |

Last year the same idea made it to the front page [0]. I understand that the apps can be faster, or easier to use. But that's intentional. Developers are deliberately making the web experience worst to force you to use the app. The reason is they have control over the experience in the apps. For example, blocking ads on the apps is much harder, and they can extract things like your contacts, GPS data, and run in the background.

At this point, the only apps on my phone are bank apps. Even that is something I'm trying to get rid off.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44689059

BostonFern 42 days ago | |

Tougher adblocking is the best argument I’ve heard.

choward 42 days ago |

I'm not going to download an app for every company I do business with. It's as simple as that.

I'm not going to download an app to order food from your restaurant. I'm not going to download an app to operate an appliance. I'm not going to download an app to get a discount on a beverage at your convenience store.

I don't care about your stupid rewards system for trying to get a reasonable price on overpriced items. I'm not downloading an app for it.

There are many people who download every app they do business with without hesitation. It's crazy. I can't imagine how many apps these people have on their phones.

AstroBen 42 days ago |

Do you really think developers are going through the hellish pain of dealing with Google and Apple for no reason? Real world users prefer and expect apps as opposed to web versions for many product categories.

CephalopodMD 42 days ago |

I'm okay with downloading your app provided it's actually good and does something substantially better than a website could do. I'm talking seamless mobile UI, use of mobile features like gps or nfc, or easier/better security and authentication.

However, I don't want your bloated or minimum effort dog-shit app just to watch a movie on a plane, browse a site like Reddit, order a pizza, read a news article/blog, or shop at your specific online store. I will begrudgingly download it if I must, but I'll hate you for it.

elwray 41 days ago |

I wonder what happened to PWAs

OhMeadhbh 42 days ago |

Preach your truth, brother!

brianzelip 42 days ago |

gmail on mobile is particularly insidious in this context.

wg0 42 days ago |

I think app stores are getting restrictive and their next attack would be on PWA because that's one loophole in their walled garden where they need to extract 30% cut. Only a matter of time.

As for me, I would be mostly relying on PWAs.

Being a smaller company, try pushing an app to production on Android. Good luck with that.

rkhaniukov 42 days ago |

I like apps, much better then web version experience

alunchbox 42 days ago |

Preach brother

hyperific 42 days ago |

prince005 42 days ago |

You're not my target audience

polyamid23 42 days ago |

This indeed is annoying. Burn it down. This year is the year of moving away from services pushing this nonsense. I am looking at you PayPal.

VirgilShelton 42 days ago |

Yes and now I use AI to build any website which locks me into their workflow and run it locally how I choose!

rvz 42 days ago |

PWAs are dead.

rchaud 42 days ago | |

PWAs make little sense at this point as most apps are useless without an active internet connection. You can't cache Uber ride searches, Amazon product listings or food delivery options.

darepublic 42 days ago |

dozens of apps on the smartphone is gross. an indicator for me of an elderly / technically illiterate smartphone user is the presence of a ton of apps, most of which were used long ago and seldomly.

hooverd 42 days ago | |

sounds like somebody who's never had to park in multiple cities

blabla_bla 42 days ago |

I got the entire idea from the title, no need for the article 's body.

And when I started reading I got bored after a few paragraphs since, again, I already got the idea.

Do we really need more than a title for these articles?