Bugs Rust won't catch(corrode.dev) |
Bugs Rust won't catch(corrode.dev) |
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> What’s notable is that all of these bugs landed in a production Rust codebase, written by people who knew what they were doing
...
[List of bugs a diligent person would be mindful of, unix expert or not]
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Only conclusion I can make is, unfortunately, the people writing these tools are not good software developers, certainly not sufficiently good for this line of work.
For comparison, I am neither a unix neckbeard nor a rust expert, but with the magic of LLMs I am using rust to write a music player. The amount of tokens I've sunk into watching for undesirable panics or dropped errors is pretty substantial. Why? Because I don't want my music player to suck! Simple as that. If you don't think about panics or errors, your software is going to be erratic, unpredictable and confusing.
Now, coreutils isn't my hobby music player, it's fundamental Internet infrastructure! I hate sounding like a Breitbart commenter but it is quite shocking to see the lack of basic thought going into writing what is meant to be critical infrastructure. Wow, honestly pathetic. Sorry to be so negative and for this word choice, but "shock" and "disappointment" are mild terms here for me.
Anyway, thanks for the author of this post! This is a red flag that should be distributed far and wide.
uutils did not start off as "let's make critical infrastructure in Rust", it started off as "coreutils are small and have tests, so we're rewriting them in Rust for fun". As a result there's needed to be a bunch of cleanup work.
> For fun
My idea of fun is reviewing my code and making sure I'm handling errors correctly so that my software doesn't suck. Maybe the people who are doing this, for fun, should be more aligned with that mentality?
How the f** did this sub-amateur slop end up in a big-name linux distribution? We've de-professionalized software engineering to such a degree that people don't even know what baseline competent software looks like anymore
> uutils read it as “send the default signal to PID -1”, which on Linux means every process you can see.
What's the use case for killing all process you can see?
It's not fine even for a normal program, because operations on a large number of files will end up an order of magnitude slower. No matter what language you write your utility in.
... reads the article to the end, marvels at all the problems resulting from not understanding how the OS works and missing 40 years of refinement ...
Is this in an Ubuntu LTS ?!?
[0]: https://github.com/uutils/coreutils-tracking/commits/main/?a...
I LOL'd when I read "eternal ball of sadness".
I hate to armchair general, but I clicked on this article expecting subtle race conditions or tricky ambiguous corners of the POSIX standard, and instead found that it seems to be amateur hour in uutils.
1. uutils as a project started back in 2013 as a way to learn Rust, by no means by knowledgeable developers or in a mature language
2. uutils didn't even have a consideration to become a replacement of GNU Coreutils until.... roughly 2021, I think? 2021 is when they started running compliance/compatibility tests, anyway
3. The choice of licensing (made in 2013) effectively forbids them from looking at the original source
They're a group of people who want to replace pro-user software (GPL) with pro-business software (MIT).
I don't really want them to achieve their goal.
* Let's rewrite thing in X, it is better
* Let's not look at existing code, X is better so writing it from scratch will look nicer
* Whoops, existing code was written like this for a reason
* Whoops, we re-introduce decade+ old problems that original already fixed at some point
I'd be interested in a comparison with the amount of bugs and CVE's in GNU coreutils at the start of its lifetime, and compare it with this rewrite. Same with the number of memory bugs that are impossible in (safe) Rust.
Don't just downvote me, tell me how I'm wrong.
Granted, the uutils authors are well experienced in Rust, but it is not enough for a large-scale rewrite like this and you can't assume that it's "secure" because of memory safety.
In this case, this post tells us that Unix itself has thousands of gotchas and re-implementing the coreutils in Rust is not a silver bullet and even the bugs Unix (and even the POSIX standard) has are part of the specification, and can be later to be revealed as vulnerabilities in reality.
I'm not sure that they were all that experienced in Rust when most of this code was written. uutils has been a bit of a "good first rust issue" playground for a lot of its existence
Which makes it pretty unsurprising that the authors also weren't all that well versed in the details of low-level POSIX API
In this case the filesystem API was perhaps not as well designed as it could have been. That can potentially be fixed though.
Some of the other bugs would be hard to statically prevent though. But nobody ever claimed otherwise.
On a separate note: I have a private "coretools" reimplementation in Zig (not aiming to replace anything, just for fun), and I'm striving to keep it 100% Zig with no libc calls anywhere. Which may or may not turn out to be possible, we'll see. However, cross-checking uutils I noticed it does have a bunch of unsafe blocks that call into libc, e.g. https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/blob/77302dbc87bcc7caf87.... Thankfully they're pretty minimal, but every such block can reduce the safety provided by a Rust rewrite.
Probably will depend on what platform(s) you're targeting and/or your appetite for dealing with breakage. You can avoid libc on Linux due to its stable syscall interface, but that's not necessarily an option on other platforms. macOS, for instance, can and does break syscall compatibility and requires you to go through libSystem instead. Go got bit by this [0]. I want to say something similar applies to Windows as well.
This Unix StackExchange answer [1] says that quite a few other kernels don't promise syscall compatibility either, though you might be able to somewhat get away with it in practice for some of them.
> I'd be interested in a comparison with the amount of bugs and CVE's in GNU coreutils at the start of its lifetime
The point is, those bugs had been discovered and fixed decades ago. Do you want to wait decades for coreutils_rs to reach the same robustness? Why do a rewrite when the alternative is to help improve the original which is starting from a much more solid base?
And even when a complete rewrite would make sense, why not do a careful line-by-line porting of the original code instead of doing a clean-room implementation to at least carry over the bugfixes from the original? And why even use the Rust stdlib at all when it contains footguns that are not acceptable for security-critical code?
For a project of this kind, this seems a rather stupid choice and it is enough to make hard to trust the rewritten tools.
Even supposing that replacing the GPL license were an acceptable goal, that would make sense only for a library, not for executable applications. For executable applications it makes sense to not want GPL only when you want to extract parts of them and insert them into other programs.
Perhaps one good reason is that once the initial bugs are fixed, over time the number of security issues will be lower than the original? If it could reach the same level of stability and robustness in months or a small number of years, the downsides aren't totally obvious. We will have to wait to judge I suppose. Maybe it's not worth it and that's fine, but it doesn't speak to Rust as a language.
Because you are trying to remove memory safety as a source of bugs in the future. No code is bug free, but removing entire categories of bugs from a code base is a good thing.
So let's talk about that. Well written C code, especially for the purpose of writing and continuing to maintain mature GNU coreutils, is not a big risk in terms of CVE. Between having an inexperienced Rust developer and an extremely experienced C developer (who's been through all the motions), I'd say the latter is likely the safer option.
And that's part of the problem. There's no excuse beyond maybe platform support for starting a brand new project in C, when C++ exists.
The software with the best security track record of all time is written in C.
It is very common for applications written in Rust to be split in multiple reusable crates. Looking at the main crate, that is the case here too: https://crates.io/crates/coreutils/0.8.0/dependencies
This allows for the learnings of uutils (and by extension GNU coreutils) to be able to be leveraged by any other project that needs the same functionality. I noticed on a quick scan of the dependents on uucore that other projects (like nushell) do so.
When I do `man builtin` on macOS now, I get:
``` HISTORY The builtin manual page first appeared in FreeBSD 3.4. ```
which is what I expected, and I don't expect those to be pulled out from under me and replaced with the sort of nonsense we have here today.
qmail was at one point the second most widely deployed email server, handling the majority of online mail. It wasn't a research project; it's not obscure. Yahoo used to use it.
And what I mean by track record: After more than a decade after the last published version, a theoretical attack was found requiring special setup uncommon for a sysadmin, and impossible ten years prior.
When anyone thinks about how to build reliable secure software, I think they should be thinking of qmail because it really has no public source-available equal, except maybe djbdns.
seL4 on the other hand makes some specious claims about some ten year old version of itself, and so few people have even heard about it you thought it important to remind it is "technically" C -- qmail isn't like that at all: There is no prover, no test suite, and almost no metaprogramming of any kind. It's just C.
I just want to mention that I disagree with the section titled "Rule: Resolve Paths Before Comparing Them". Generally, it is better to make calls to fstat and compare the st_dev and st_ino. However, that was mentioned in the article. A side effect that seems less often considered is the performance impact. Here is an example in practice:
$ mkdir -p $(yes a/ | head -n $((32 * 1024)) | tr -d '\n')
$ while cd $(yes a/ | head -n 1024 | tr -d '\n'); do :; done 2>/dev/null
$ echo a > file
$ time cp file copy
real 0m0.010s
user 0m0.002s
sys 0m0.003s
$ time uu_cp file copy
real 0m12.857s
user 0m0.064s
sys 0m12.702s
Also, the larger point still stands, but the article says "The Rust rewrite has shipped zero of these [memory saftey bugs], over a comparable window of activity." However, this is not true [2]. :)
[1] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Semantics [2] https://github.com/advisories/GHSA-w9vv-q986-vj7x
Rust uutils would be a good place to design a more foolproof replacement for Rust's std::fs API.
When K&R created unix and C there was still the better option of moving changes that were better to have in the "kernel" into the kernel.
Now we have "standards" that even cause headaches between Linux and BSD's.
Linux back-propagates stuff like mmap, io_uring, etc. to where it belongs. In this way it is like the original unix. And deservedly running on most servers out there.
So how can I learn from this? (Asking very aggressively, especially for Internet writing, to make the contrast unmistakable. And contrast helps with perceiving differences and mistakes.) (You also don’t owe me any of your time or mental bandwidth, whatsoever.)
So here goes:
Question 1:
How come "speed", "performance", race conditions and st_ino keep getting brought up?
Speed (latency), physically writing things out to storage (sequentially, atomically (ACID), all of HDD NVME SSD ODD FDD tape, "haskell monad", event horizons, finite speed of light and information, whatever) as well as race conditions all seem to boil down to the same thing. For reliable systems like accounting the path seems to be ACID or the highway. And "unreliable" systems forget fast enough that computers don’t seem to really make a difference there.
Question 2:
Does throughput really matter more than latency in everyday application?
Question 3 (explanation first, this time):
The focus on inode numbers is at least understandable with regards to the history of C and unix-like operating systems and GNU coreutils.
What about this basic example? Just make a USB thumb drive "work" for storing files (ignoring nand flash decay and USB). Without getting tripped up in libc IO buffering, fflush, kernel buffering (Hurd if you prefer it over Linux or FreeBSD), more than one application running on a multi-core and/or time-sliced system (to really weed out single-core CPUs running only a single user-land binary with blocking IO).
Here's a related example of what happens when you change a shell primitive's behavior - even interactively. Back in the 2000s, Linux distributions started adding color output to the ls command via a default "alias ls=/bin/ls --color=auto". You know: make directories blue, symlinks cyan, executables purple; that kind of thing. Somebody thought it would be a nice user experience upgrade.
I was working at a NAS (NFS remote box) vendor in tech support. We frequently got calls from folks who had just switched to Linux from Solaris, or had just moved their home directories from local disk to NFS. They would complain that listing a directory with a lot of files would hang. If it came back at all, it would be in minutes or hours! The fix? "unalias ls". Because calling "/bin/ls" would execute a single READDIR (the NFS RPC), which was 1 round-trip to the server and only a few network packets; but calling "/bin/ls --color=auto" would add a STAT call for every single file in the directory to figure out what color it should be - sequentially, one-by-one, confirming the success of each before the next iteration. If you had 30,000 files with a round-trip time of 1ms that's 30 seconds. If you had millions...well, either you waited for hours or you power-cycled the box. (This was eventually fixed with NFSv3's READDIRPLUS.)
Now I'm sure whomever changed that alias did not intend it, but they caused thousands of people thousands of hours of lost productivity. I was just one guy in one org's tech support group, and I saw at least a dozen such cases, not all of which were lucky enough to land in the queue of somebody who'd already seen the problem.
So I really appreciate GNU coreutils' commitment to sane behavior even at the edges. If you do systems work long enough, you will ride those edges, and a tool which stays steady in your hand - or script - is invaluable.
In my experience latency and throughput are intrinsically linked unless you have the buffer-space to handle the throughput you want. Which you can't guarantee on all the systems where GNU Coreutils run.
> Does throughput really matter more than latency in everyday application?
IME as a user, hell yes
Getting a video I don't mind if it buffers a moment, but once it starts I need all of that data moving to my player as quickly as possible
OTOH if there's no wait, but the data is restricted (the amount coming to my player is less than the player needs to fully render the images), the video is "unwatchable"
The point of data storage is to be a singleton.
(Backups are desireable, anyhow.)
EDIT: got it. -bash: cd: a/a/a/....../a/a/: File name too long
You could probably make the loop more efficient, but it works good enough. Also, some shells don't allow you to enter directories that deep entirely. It doesn't work on mksh, for example.
With a little cleaning-up of the original code, the code translation ends up being fully automatic and so can be used as a build step to produce (slightly slower) memory-safe executables from the original C source.
[1] https://duneroadrunner.github.io/scpp_articles/PoC_autotrans...
"Managing this resource centrally" is where unix syscalls came from. An OS kernel can be used like a specialized library for ACID transactions on hardware singletons.
People then got fancy with virtual memory, interrupts, signals, time-slicing, re-entrancy, thread-safety, and injectivity.
It doesn’t matter, whether you call the "kernel library" from C, C++, Fortan, BASIC, Golang, bash, Rust, etc.
[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/beta/unstable-book/compiler-flags/... [2] https://www.pixelbeat.org/programming/sigpipe_handling.html
When I was a beta tester for System Vr2 Unix, I collected as many bug reports as possible from Usenet (I used the name "the shell answer man". Looking back I conclude that arrogance is generally inversely proportional to age) and sent a patch for each one I could verify. Something like 100 patches.
So if this rust rewrite cleans up some issues, it's a good thing.
So I don't see why they would want to do that.
One of the big philosophical differences to the BSD's.
For a human being, it sucks both ways.
That bug got fixed before the Ubuntu release, and is from way before Canonical was even involved with the project.
They knew how to write Rust, but clearly weren't sufficiently experienced with Unix APIs, semantics, and pitfalls. Most of those mistakes are exceedingly amateur from the perspective of long-time GNU coreutils (or BSD or Solaris base) developers, issues that were identified and largely hashed out decades ago, notwithstanding the continued long tail of fixes--mostly just a trickle these days--to the old codebases.
The code gets silently encumbered with those lessons, and unless they are documented, there's a lot of hidden work that needs to be done before you actually reach parity.
TFA is a good list of this exact sort of thing.
Before you call people amateur for it, also consider it's one of the most softwarey things about writing software. It was bound to happen unless coreutils had really good technical docs and included tests for these cases that they ignored.
This feels like a golden quote. Don't know if you intended for it to rhyme, but well done :D
It should be stressed that failure to document such lessons, or at least the bugs/vulnerabilities avoided, is poor practice. Of course one can't document the bugs/vulnerabilities one has avoided implicitly by writing decent code to begin with, but it is important to share these lessons with the future reader, even if that means "wasting" time and space on a bunch of documentation such as "In here we do foo instead of bar because when we did bar in conditions ABC then baz happens which is bad because XYZ."
uutils would be so much better imo if it was GPL and took direct inspiration from the coreutils source code.
If you do a rewrite, you should fully understand and learn from the predecessor, otherwise youre bound to repeat all the mistakes. Embarassing.
To be clear; I love Rust, I use it for various projects, and it's great. It doesn't save you from bad engineering.
[1]: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...
> If you do a rewrite, you should fully understand and learn from the predecessor, otherwise youre bound to repeat all the mistakes. Embarassing.
Interestingly, the uutils project uses the GNU coreutils test suite.
EDITED to add: they also have a stated position of not allowing contributions based on reading the GPL'd source.
It's actually even worse than that somewhat, because the attacker with write access to a parent directory can mess with hard links as well... sure, it only messes with the regular files themselves but there is basically no mitigations. See e.g. [0] and other posts on the site.
[0] https://michael.orlitzky.com/articles/posix_hardlink_heartac...
> The trap is that get_user_by_name ends up loading shared libraries from the new root filesystem to resolve the username. An attacker who can plant a file in the chroot gets to run code as uid 0.
To me such a get_user_by_name function is like a booby trap, an accident that is waiting to happen. You need to have user data, you have this get_user_by_name function, and then it goes and starts loading shared libraries. This smells like mixing of concerns to me. I'd say, either split getting the user data and loading any shared libraries in two separate functions, or somehow make it clear in the function name what it is doing.
I agree with you that that's more the story here than "OMG, somebody wrote Rust code with bugs in it".
I don't really care that some very amateur enthusiasts wrote some bad code for fun, but how in the world did anyone who knows anything about linux take this seriously as a coreutils replacement?
So does this mean that neither did the original utils have any test harness, the process of rewriting them didn't start by creating one either?
Sure there are many edge cases, but surely the OS and FS can just be abstracted away and you can verify that "rm .//" actually ends up doing what is expected (Such as not deleting the current directory)?
This doesn't seem like sloppy coding, nor a critique of the language, it's just the same old "Oh, this is systems programming, we don't do tests"?
Alternatively: if the original utils _did_ have tests, and there were this many holes in the tests, then maybe there is a massive lack in the original utils test suite?
TOCTOU means "Time-of-check to time-of-use"
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-of-check_to_time-of-use
Of the bugs mentioned I think the most unforgivable one is the lossy UTF conversion. The mind boggles at that one!
Rust won't catch it, but now the agents will.
Edit: https://gist.github.com/fschutt/cc585703d52a9e1da8a06f9ef93c... for anyone who needs copying this
For example, using filepaths instead of FDs does not matter in most cases in controlled server environments, or in processes that will never run with elevated privilege (most apps).
I suspect that attitude is how we got ourselves into this mess.
You have to assume you ultimately don't control what scope your software runs in. Obviously you do, 99.999% of the time. The other 0.0001% is when someone has found another vulnerability that lets them run your program with elevated privileges in an environment you didn't expect, and then they can use it to exploit one of these bugs. Almost all exploits use a chain of vulnerabilities each one seemingly mostly harmless - your "no one can ever exploit this weakness in my program because I control the environment" will be just one step in the chain.
That sounds far fetched. It is far fetched in the sense that it almost never happens. But nonetheless systems were and are exploited because of it. Once the solution was added in 2006 (openat() and friends), it should have never happened again. And indeed in the GNU utils it can't.
The people who build Rust's std::fs should have been aware of the problem and its solution because it was written in 2015. std::path was written at the same time, and that is where the change has to be made. It's not a big change either: std::path has to translate the path into a OS descriptor use that instead of the path - but only if it was available. I suspect the real issue was they had the same attitude as you, they thought it affects such a small percentage of programs it didn't really matter. That and it's a little bit of extra work.
It was a pity they had that attitude, because the extra work would have avoided this mess.
That's kind of horrifying. Is there a reliable list somewhere of all the functions that do that? Is that list considered stable?
Sun engineers Thomas Maslen and Sanjay Dani were the first to design and implement
the Name Service Switch. They fulfilled Solaris requirements with the nsswitch.conf
file specification and the implementation choice to load database access modules as
dynamically loaded libraries, which Sun was also the first to introduce.
Sun engineers' original design of the configuration file and runtime loading of name
service back-end libraries has withstood the test of time as operating systems have
evolved and new name services are introduced. Over the years, programmers ported the
NSS configuration file with nearly identical implementations to many other operating
systems including FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux, HP-UX, IRIX and AIX.[citation needed] More
than two decades after the NSS was invented, GNU libc implements it almost identically.
Surely there's a better way.
Well, that begs the question, is it worse to read arbitrary memory (which would probably in most cases be prevented by various dynamic protections [0] anyway), or failing to prevent rm -rf /./ and killing every process in the system, etc.?
This is still a good case study of the value of the much-touted rust rewrites. Usually they are performed by people who are domain experts in rust, but (as seen here) lack basic domain knowledge of the tool's environment.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_overflow_protection
Plus AI is also good at catching, in other languages, errors that Rust tooling enforces. Like race conditions, use after free, buffer overflows, lifetimes, etc.
So maybe AI will become to ultimate "rust checker" for any language.
https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/tree/main/fuzz/fuzz_targ...
Maybe these tests aren't even fuzz tests?
https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/blob/main/fuzz/fuzz_targ...
Even the tests that look ok are not that good in my opinion because there is no structure to it:
https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/blob/main/fuzz/fuzz_targ...
It should also try to generate mostly correct but slightly wrong things instead of just dumping random data into it.
Seems to also not expect some fuzz tests to even pass in the CI:
https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/blob/a07879b8ab2bb8fe5e0...
This is what grinds my gears. Why all the hate against GNU?
Honestly, this is why I don't learn Rust, and why I didn't bother to read the rest of the article.
Both `echo -ne 'weird\xffname\0' > list0` and `printf 'weird\xffname\0' > list0` seem to work fine for me on Linux. Is this macOS-specific?
Neither of those create a non-UTF-8 filename. (Both files are named "list0", which is valid UTF-8.) They have non-UTF-8 content, but that's not weird.
But it's not too hard to get a non-UTF-8 filename:
touch $'\xff'
(You could also use process substitution with printf, but that's more steps than necessary. So, something closer to your example would be,
touch "$(printf '\xff')"
I would not want to run any code on my machines made by people who think like this. And I'm pro-Rust. Rust is only "more secure" all else being equal. But all else is not equal.
A rewrite necessarily has orders of magnitude more bugs and vulnerabilities than a decades-old well-maintained codebase, so the security argument was only valid for a long-term transition, not a rushed one. And the people downplaying user impact post-rollout, arguing that "this is how we'll surface bugs", and "the old coreutils didn't have proper test cases anyway" are so irresponsible. Users are not lab rats. Maintainers have a moral responsibility to not harm users' systems' reliability (I know that's a minority opinion these days). Their reasoning was flawed, and their values were wrong.
The snap BS wasn't enough to move me since I was largely unaffected once stripping it out, but this might finally convince me to ditch.
And, yeah, the Unix syscalls are very prone to mistakes like this. For example, Unix's `rename` syscall takes two paths as arguments; you can't rename a file by handle; and so Rust has a `rename` function that takes two paths rather than an associated function on a `File`. Rust exposes path-based APIs where Unix exposes path-based APIs, and file-handle-based APIs where Unix exposes file-handle-based APIs.
So I agree that Rust's stdilb is somewhat mistake prone; not so much because it's being opinionated and "nudg[ing] the developer towards using neat APIs", but because it's so low-level that it's not offering much "safety" in filesystem access over raw syscalls beyond ensuring that you didn't write a buffer overflow.
I'm hedging on the "almost" only because there are so many languages made by so many developers and if you're building a language in the 2020s it is probably because you've got some sort of strong opinion, so maybe there's one out there that defaults to *at-style file handling in the standard library because some language developer has the strong opinions about this I do. But I don't know of one.
This can also be a pain on microcontrollers sometimes, but there you're free to pretend you're on Unix if you want to.
The point of Rust is that you shouldn't have to worry about the biggest, easiest to fall in pitfalls.
I think the author's point of this article, is that a proper file system API should do the same.
We're looking solely at the few things they got wrong, and not the thousands of correct lines around them.
(Actually ideally there's formal verification tools that can accurately test for all of the issues found in this review / audit, like the very timing specific path changes, but that's a codebase on its own)
Cloudflare crashed a chunk of the internet with a rust app a month or so ago, deploying a bad config file iirc.
Rust isn’t a panacea, it’s a programming language. It’s ok that it’s flawed, all languages are.
And writing comprehensive tests for this behaviour is very difficult regardless of which language you are using.
I am all for rust rewrites of things. But in this case, these are mistakes which were encouraged by the lazy design of `std::fs` and the developers' lack of relevant experience.
And to clarify, I don't blame the developers for lacking the relevant experience. Working on such a project is precisely the right place to learn stuff like this.
I think it's an absurdly dumb move by Canonical to take this project and beta-test it on normal users' machines though…
Shows how good Rust is, that even inexperienced Unix devs can write stuff like this and make almost no mistakes.
Some, maybe, but if you've decided to rewrite coreutils from scratch, understanding the POSIX APIs is literally your entire job.
And in any case, their test for whether a path was pointing to the fs root was `file == Path::new("/")`. That's not an API problem, the problem is that whoever wrote that is uniquely unqualified to be working on this project.
> That's not an API problem, the problem is that whoever wrote that is uniquely unqualified to be working on this project.
To be fair, uutils started out with far smaller ambitions. It was originally intended to be a way to learn Rust.
[0]: https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/commit/7abc6c007af75504f...
Yes, it is. But still such traps in API just unacceptable. If you design API that requires obscure knowledge to do it right, and if you do it wrong you'll get privilege escalation, it is just... just... I have no words for it. It is beyond stupidity. You are just making sure that your system will get these privilege escalations, and not just once, but multiple times.
Seems and smells is weasel words. The root cause is not thinking: Why is root chrooting into a directory they do not control?
Whatever you chroot into is under control of whoever made that chroot, and if you cannot understand this you have no business using chroot()
> To me such a get_user_by_name function is like a booby trap
> I'd say, either split getting the user data and loading any shared libraries in two separate functions, or somehow make it clear in the function name what it is doing.
You'd probably still be in the trap: there's usually very little difference between writing to newroot/etc/passwd and newroot/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnss_compat.so or newroot/bin/sh or anything else.
So I think there's no reason for /usr/sbin/chroot look up the user id in the first place (toybox chroot doesn't!), so I think the bug was doing anything at all.
Because you can't call chroot(2) unless you're root. And "control a directory" is weasel words; root technically controls everything in one sense of the word. It can also gain full control (in a slightly different sense of the word) over a directory: kill every single process that's owned by the owner of that directory, then don't setuid into that user in this process and in any other process that the root currently executes, or will execute, until you're done with this directory. But that's just not useful for actual use, isn't it?
Secure things should be simple to do, and potentially unsafe things should be possible.
Until we have a filesystem that can present a snapshot, everything has to checked all the time.
i.e. we need an API which gives input -> good result or failure. Not input -> good result or failure or error.
Also, hi how's things? :)
Yes.
> Sure there are many edge cases, but surely the OS and FS can just be abstracted away and you can verify that "rm .//" actually ends up doing what is expected (Such as not deleting the current directory)?
I think people have been trying that since before I was born and haven't yet been successful, so I am much less sure than you are.
For example: How do you decide how many `/` characters to try?
For a better one: Can you imagine if "rm" could simply decide to refuse to delete files containing "important" as first 9 bytes? How would you think of a test for something like that without knowing the letters in that order? What if the magic word wasn't in a dictionary?
> This doesn't seem like sloppy coding, nor a critique of the language, it's just the same old "Oh, this is systems programming, we don't do tests"?
I've never heard anyone say that except as a straw man.
I've heard people say tests don't do what people think they do.
This is one reason why Windows disables symlinks by default, and it's not an abstraction but wholesale removal of a feature. Unixes can't do that without breaking decades of software that relies on their existence.
MacOS does something similar, for example the chroot() bug isn't an issue in practice because MacOS forbids chroot() by default (you need to disable system integrity protection).
The fundamental problem is caused by the POSIX APIs. They have sharp edges by their very nature. The "fix" is to remove them.
Low latency increases the risk of "wasted cycles”, i.e. lowers (machine) throughput. Helps with human discovery throughput, though.
The sled.rs people had a well readable take on this in their performance guide.
So the continued popularity of Coreutils might, I think, depend on Coreutil's near-term publicly announced and actual memory safety strategy. As I suggested in my other comment, there are (somewhat nascent) options for memory safety that do not require a rewrite of the code base. (For linux x86_64 platforms, depending on your requirements, that might include the "fanatically compatible" Fil-C.) And given the high profile of Coreutils, there are likely people willing to work with the Coreutils team to help in the deployment of those memory safety options.
Around and around we go.
In practice this always "impacts" performance.
If I understand it correctly, then in physics this is called an event horizon.
In addition ACID isn't always provided by the floor beneath your programs but by designing the programs on top to uphold it and/or not require it, allowing you to relax the constraints from your lower level interfaces for performance reasons.
The "application layer" always has to enforce its own consistency guarantees. If the lower layers are total garbage, then the system is garbage. And the "speed" of the lower layers can be infinitely fast and it doesn’t matter, if the application has a latency floor. So optimize it all you want.
Parse, don't validate is also a principle that encourages people to use a less-error-prone abstraction (the parsed data structure or an error representing invalid input), rather than a more-error-prone one (the original untyped data with ad-hoc validations at various call sites).
You can also run some static analysis that is too long to run locally every time, but once in a while it will point out "this code pattern is legal buy is almost always a bug"
It is also possible to do some formal analysis of code on CI that you wouldn't always run locally - I'm not an expert on these.
you able to find a reason to come visit? or am i going to have to come to blighty so we can hang out?
The perception of speed in using a computer is almost entirely latency driven these days. Compare using `rg` or `git` vs loading up your banking website.
Linux desktop (and the kernel) felt awful for such a long time because everyone was optimizing for server and workstation workloads. Its the reason CachyOS (and before that Linux Zen and.. Licorix?) are a thing.
For good UX, you heavily prioritize latency over throughput. No one cares if copying a file stalls for a moment or takes 2 seconds longer if that ensures no hitches in alt tabbing, scrolling or mouse movement.
Exactly.
Exactly, lots of different things.
When I alt-tab I care about latency.
When I ssh I care about latency.
When I download a 25GB game I care about throughput for the download to a certain extent that is probably mainly ISP bound rather than local system bound. I don't care if the download takes 10 or 11 minutes as long as I can still use my system with zero delays meanwhile. And whether it takes 11 minutes of 3 hours depends on my ISP mostly. But being responsive to me while it downloads is local latency bound.
The Youtube example you have makes sense, sure.
In the example you gave the amount of read speed the user needs to keep up with a video is meager and greater read speed is meaningless beyond maintaining a small buffer.
You in fact notice more if your process is sometimes starved of CPU IO memory was waiting on swap etc. Conversely you would in most cases not notice near so much if the entire thing got slower even much slower if it's meager resources were quickly available to the thing you are doing right now.
> However, GNU software tends to work very hard to avoid arbitrary limits [1].
[0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/maxim...
What did I get wrong there?
Side note: Missing
bash$ man 1 cd ;
bash$ help cd ;Contrast that with NFS, which last I looked needed several config files, matching account IDs between hosts, mounting as root, and would hang processes if connection was lost. At least I hear rpcbind is gone these days.
I don't think anyone sane uses NFS on Linux either these days. And it is rather funny that the protocol Microsoft invented is what stuck and became practical between Linux hosts.
For read-only access there could be way better caching, especially for common use cases like listing the contents of a filesystem directory. But stuff like this was excluded on purpose.
NFS is really stupid.
NFS made the assumption that a distributed system with over 100 times the latency of a local system could be treated like a local system in every single way.
That "perfectly good code" that it sounds like no one should question included "split --line-bytes has a user controlled heap buffer overflow".
Countless time I have seen other people complain as well. There are articles about it even. Can't find the YouTube link now but recently a gamedev abandoned Rust due to compilation speed alone because iteration speed was paramount to their creative process.
Handwaving isn't going to make it any better. And thinking Go/TS compilation speed are comparable to Rust is, a handwave and a half to say the least.
Cargo check and friends are subpar for AI because they actually need to run the thing and unit tests for efficient agentic loops.
A single loop might recompile and rerun the application/unit tests enough times that slow compilers like Rust and Scala become detrimental.
I'm not saying that Rust compilation time is comparable to Go/TS, I'm saying the blanket claim that Rust iteration speed will be a bottleneck requires context.
I definitely agree with you that it is a complaint that is often repeated online, but that doesn't make it universally true. In my experience it's a claim that is often echoed without proper context.
Particularly in the case of AI Rust recompliation times in my experience have not been the dominant cost, but are instead overshadowed by inference time, the agent working through different approaches, etc.
However, the shell could theoretically chunk long cd arguments into multiple calls to chdir(), splitting on slashes. I believe this would be fully semantically correct: you are not losing any atomicity guarantees because the kernel doesn’t provide such guarantees in the first place for lookups involving multiple path components. I’m not surprised that bash doesn’t bother implementing this, and I don’t know if I’d call that an “arbitrary limitation” on bash’s part (as opposed to a lack of workaround for another component’s arbitrary limitation). But it would be possible.
Nothing; you just missed some other considerations. For instance, Linux generally follows POSIX. That's what the 2004 version has to say about chdir's errors:
ERRORS
The chdir() function shall fail if:
...
[ENAMETOOLONG]
The length of the path argument exceeds {PATH_MAX} or a pathname component is longer than {NAME_MAX}.
...
The chdir() function may fail if:
...
[ENAMETOOLONG]
As a result of encountering a symbolic link in resolution of the path argument, the length of the substituted pathname string exceeded {PATH_MAX}.
I did not choose the term to confuse you, that's from the definition document linked to the CVE:
https://cwe.mitre.org/data/definitions/426.html
The CVE itself uses the language "If the NEWROOT is writable by an attacker" which could refer to a shared library (as indicated in the report), or even a passwd file as would have been true since the origin of chroot()
> root technically controls everything in one sense of the word.
But not the sense we're talking about.
> Because you can't call chroot(2) unless you're root
Well you can[1], but this is /usr/sbin/chroot aka chroot(8) when used with a non-numeric --userspec, and the point is to drop root to a user that root controls with setuid(2). Something needs to map user names to the numeric userids that setuid(2) uses, and that something is typically the NSS database.
Now: Which database should be used to map a username to a userid?
- The one from before the chroot(2)?
- Or the one that you're chroot(2)ing into
If you're the author of the code in-question, you chose the latter, and that is totally obvious to anyone who can read because that's the order the code appears in, but it's also obvious that only the first one* is under control of root, and so only the first one could be correct.
[1]: if you're curious: unshare(CLONE_USERNS|CLONE_FS) can be used. this is part of how rootless containers work.
No, you can't, it's an entirely different syscall that does something vaguely similar. IMHO there are a bit too many root-restricted operations that should not have been; but they are, so we're stuck with setuid-enabled "confused deputies" — arguably, it's the root that should be prohibited from calling chroot(2).
> Now: Which database should be used to map a username to a userid? If you're the author of the code in-question, you chose the latter
That's the problem: the choice is implicit. If the author moved setuid/setgid calls way up in the call order, the implicit choice would've also been the safe one but it was literally impossible.
> unshare(CLONE_USERNS|CLONE_FS) can be used
Wait, CLONE_USERNS? That's not a real flag. Did you mean CLONE_NEWUSER?
Yes. And I agree, but it also enables chroot(2) to work without being root, which was the syscall we are talking about, and which I still maintain is not as important as reading.
> arguably, it's the root that should be prohibited from calling chroot(2).
> IMHO there are a bit too many root-restricted operations that should not have been
It's a popular opinion. It's also cheap. So what?
> so we're stuck with setuid-enabled "confused deputies"
chroot(8) is not setuid-enabled. This has nothing to do with anything.
> That's the problem: the choice is implicit. If the author moved setuid/setgid calls way up in the call order, the implicit choice would've also been the safe one but it was literally impossible.
False. The setuid/setgid calls are in the right place. The lookup of the database mapping usernames to userids is in the wrong place.
If the rust programmer just read what they wrote they would see this.
If you just read what they wrote you would see this.
Almost all languages/standard libraries pick the latter, and many choose UNIX or Linux as the preferred platform, even though its file system API has flaws we’ve known about for decades (example: using file paths too often) or made decisions back in 1970 we probably wouldn’t make today (examples: making file names sequences of bytes; not having a way to encode file types and, because of that, using heuristics to figure out file types. See https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/file.1.html)
A standard library for files and paths that lacks things like ACLs and locks is weirdly Unixy for a supposedly modern language. Most systems support ACLs now, though Windows uses them a lot more. On the other hand, the lack of file descriptors/handles is weird from all points of view.
Had Windows been an uncommon target, I would've understood this design, but Windows is still the most common PC operating system in the world by a great margin. Not even considering things like "multile filesystem roots" (drive letters) "that happen to not exist on Linux", or "case insensitive paths (Windows/macOS/some Linux systems)" is a mistake for a supposedly generic language, in my opinion.
"This module contains basic methods to manipulate the contents of the local filesystem. All methods in this module represent cross-platform filesystem operations. Extra platform-specific functionality can be found in the extension traits of std::os::$platform."
Following its recommendation, if we look at std::os::windows::fs we see an extension trait for setting Windows-specific flags for WinAPI-specific flags, like dwDesiredAccess, dwShareMode, dwFlagsAndAttributes. I'm not a Windows dev but AFAICT we want an API to set lpSecurityAttributes. I don't see an option for that in std::os::windows::fs, likely complicated by the fact that it's a pointer, so acquiring a valid value for that parameter is more involved than just constructing a bitfield like for the aforementioned parameters. But if you think this should be simple, then please propose adding it to std::os::windows::fs; the Rust stdlib adds new APIs all the time in response to demand. (In the meantime, comprehensive Windows support is generally provided by the de-facto standard winapi crate, which provides access to the raw syscall).
Can you expound a bit on this? I haven't been able to find any articles related to this kind of problem. It's also a bit surprising, given that Go specifically did not make the same choice as Rust to make strings be Unicode / UTF-8 (Go strings are just arrays of bytes, with one minor exception related to iteration using the range syntax).
Why?
----
Many GNU, linux and other utils are pretty awesome, and obviously some effort has been spent in the past to port them to windows. However those projects are either old, abandonned, hosted on CVS, written in platform-specific C, etc.
Rust provides a good platform-agnostic way of writing systems utils that are easy to compile anywhere, and this is as good a way as any to try and learn it.
https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/blob/9653ed81a2fbf393f42...
Currently their usage is actively worsening the security of their distro
Honestly, brilliant guys.
When C got its own standards committee they even rejected Ritchie's proposal to add fat pointers to C before it was too late to add them. Instead, we got the C abstract machine.
It does not matter if it's in the GPL explicitly or not since we're talking about uutils and their stance on it, and they've written that:
https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/blob/6b8a5a15b4f077f8609...
> we cannot accept any changes based on the GNU source code [..]. It is however possible to look at other implementations under a BSD or MIT license like Apple's implementation or OpenBSD.
The wording of that clearly implies that you should not look at GNU source code in order to contribute to uutils.
Hmmmm....
It would have avoided the "running code as root" part, but it would still allow an attacker to control the result of the function call.
I mean, the problem being solved here isn't exactly a bad problem to try to solve. You either permanently hard-code `/etc/passwd` as the user database, and `/etc/resolv.conf` as the source of DNS server information, or you allow these to be handled in a more complex way (thus allowing YellowPages, LDAP, or whatever you can imagine).
Frankly, sometimes I feel that on Linux, root should be restricted to executing/loading only a whitelist of executables/shared objects, identified by hash of the contents, not the file paths. But then again, you'll need a allow_for_root(1) utility to maintain this whitelist, and people absolutely will call it in their setup scripts in all kinds of dubious manner.
To clarify, the kernel doesn't (well, it gets complicated with things like NFSv4 but let's just ignore that since it doesn't really make or break my point) know anything about users or groups. It _only_ has the ability to manage some integers on a per-process basis and tie those into integers attached to files.
Assuming for now that we want to keep this like that, if you want to tie names to those numbers, you have to have some kind of database. If not by reading a config file, or by running some random code, or by some virtual file system (unless I misunderstood ?), what other options do you have?
Unix sockets have the same issue. There are abstract namespace sockets, but these don't exactly help solve the core problem, since now changing the network namespace can get you in the same trouble. This also covers any other kind of socket.
Even if the kernel did have the capacity to maintain this information, something would need to load it or back it, and that something could fall afoul of similar bugs.
> root should be restricted to executing/loading only a whitelist of executables/shared objects
It should already be possible to achieve this with IMA I believe?
> But then again, you'll need a allow_for_root(1) utility to maintain this whitelist, and people absolutely will call it in their setup scripts in all kinds of dubious manner.
You'd just keep the signing keys off the machine and either sign things off the host or sign them with presence detection and an HSM.
Didn't we learn from c, and the entire raison detre for rust, is that coders cannot be trusted to follow rules like this?
If coders could "(document) safety invariants that must be manually upheld in order for usage to be memory-safe." there's be no need for Rust.
This is the tautology underlying rust as I see it
When creating a dynamic sized array type, it's much simpler to reason about its invariants when you assume only its public methods have access to its size and length fields, rather than trust the user to remember to update those fields themselves.
The above is an analogy which is obviously fixed by using opaque accesor functions, but Rust takes it further by encapsulating raw pointer usage itself.
The whole ethos of unsafe Rust is that you encapsulate usages of things like raw pointers and mutable static variables in smaller, more easily verifiable modules rather than having everyone deal with them directly.
Inversely, you can write whole applications in rust without ever touching `unsafe` directly, so that keyword by itself signals the need for attention (both to the programmer and the reviewer or auditor). An unsafe block without a safety comment next to it is a very easy red flag to catch.
It is LTS now. And not LTS releases are releases.
Synology, TrueNAS and Proxmox probably also have NFS support I would assume, and they definitely have Samba. Those are more relevant to me personally.
I just run a normal headless Linux distro on my NAS computer, I don't see the point of a specialised NAS distro. It too could have NFS if I wanted it, but it currently has Samba, because it is easier and works better.
So in conclusion, I'm not sure what your point is? Doesn't NetApp support anything except NFS?
For me NFS is easy and works better, edit two files, enable NFS and update firewall. I had NFS running before SMB, and if I am at hobby level I prefer http if it is good enough. There are technical reasons to use SMB, HTTP, NFS or Ceph. The easy to use options is just a function of how much you know, what you have run into and what you NEED to do.
I'm used to running experimental software but I wasn't ready for my computer to not boot one day because of uutils. The `-Z` flag for `cp` wasn't implemented in the 9 month old version shipped in Debian at that time so initramfs creation failed...
I feel like Fedora has the same pragmatic approach (allows non-free drivers, packages, etc.) and is just as easy to use.
Some FOSS software seems to maximize kernel IO last time I had a Gentoo.
sudo apt install coreutils-from-gnu
`openat()` and the other `*at()` syscalls are also raw syscalls, which Rust's stdlib chose not to expose. While I can understand that this may not be straight forward for a cross-platform API, I have to disagree with your statement that Rust's stdlib is mistake prone because it's so low-level. It's more mistake prone than POSIX (in some aspects) because it is missing a whole family of low-level syscalls.
From what I understand, "assigned" probably isn't the best way to put it. uutils started off back in 2013 as a way to learn Rust [0] way before the present kerfuffle.
[0]: https://github.com/uutils/coreutils/tree/9653ed81a2fbf393f42...
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/392022/whats-the-best-wa...
The problem is that -DIGIT doubles as both "signal number" and process group. The right way to invoke kill for a process group however would be "kill [OPTS]... -- -PGID".
If they do not like the design mistakes, great, they should set for themselves the goal to write a new operating system together with all base applications, where all these mistakes are corrected.
As long as they have not chosen the second goal, but the first, they are constrained by the existing interfaces and they must use them correctly, no matter how inconvenient that may be.
Anyone who learns English may be frustrated by many design mistakes of English, but they must still use English as it is spoken by the natives, otherwise they will not be understood.
It's honestly frustrating how prevalent this is in C, and the docs don't even tell you this, and if you guess it does take ownership and make a copy for it and you were wrong, now you just leaked memory, or if you guessed the other way now you have the potential to double-free it, use after free, or have it mutated behind your back.
Rust has OsStr to represent strings like paths, with a lossy/fallible conversion step instead.
Go's approach is fine for 99% of cases, and you're pretty screwed if your application falls for the 1% issue. Go has a lot of those decisions, often to simplify the standard library for most use cases most people usually run into (like their awful, lossy, incomplete conversion between Unix and Windows when it comes to permissions/read-only flags/etc.).
This is only for the "io/fs" package and its generic filesystem abstractions. The "os" package, which always operates on the real filesystem, doesn't actually specify how paths are encoded, nor does its associated helper package "path/filepath".
In practice, non-UTF-8 already wasn't an issue on Unix-like systems, where file paths are natively just byte sequences. You do need to be aware of this possibility to avoid mangling the paths yourself, though. The real problem was Windows, where paths are actually WTF-16, i.e. UTF-16 with unpaired surrogates. Go has addressed this issue by accepting WTF-8 paths since Go 1.21: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/32334#issuecomment-15500...
I for one hadn't even heard of the io/fs package that has the problems that you mention, and I don't remember ever seeing it used in an example. I've looked in a code base I help maintain, and the only uses I could find are related to some function type definitions that are used by filepath.WalkDir and filepath.Walk - and those functions explicitly document the fact that they don't use `io/fs` style paths when calling these functions - they don't even respect the path separator format:
// WalkDir calls fn with paths that use the separator character appropriate
// for the operating system. This is unlike [io/fs.WalkDir], which always
// uses slash separated paths.
func WalkDir(root string, fn fs.WalkDirFunc) error {
type WalkDirFunc func(path string, d DirEntry, err error) errorhttps://go.dev/ref/spec#String_types: “A string value is a (possibly empty) sequence of bytes”
https://pkg.go.dev/strings@go1.26.2: “Package strings implements simple functions to manipulate UTF-8 encoded strings.”
So, yes, Go strings are just arrays of bytes in the language, but in the standard library, they’re supposed to be UTF-8 (the documentation isn’t immediately clear on how it handles non-UTF-8 strings).
I think this may be why the OP thinks the Go approach is “every path is a valid UTF-8 string”
[0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2026/04/msg00004.html
See: https://lists.debian.org/deity/2025/10/msg00071.html - Hard Rust requirements from May onward - by a Core Ubuntu Developer
As long as it's unstable it's totally fair to say Rust's stdlib does not expose them. You might as well say it's fixed because someone posted a patch on a mailing list somewhere.
Why can I easily use "*at" functions from Python's stdlib, but not Rust's?
They are much safer against path traversal and symlink attacks.
Working safely with files should not require *const c_char.
This should be fixed .
And then there’s renameat(2) which takes two dirfd… and two paths from there, which mostly has all the same issues rename(2) does (and does not even take flags so even O_NOFOLLOW is not available).
I’m not sure what you’d need to make a safe renameat(), maybe a triplet of (dirfd, filefd, name[1]) from the source, (dirfd, name) from the target, and some sort of flag to indicate whether it is allowed to create, overwrite, or both.
As the recent https://blog.sebastianwick.net/posts/how-hard-is-it-to-open-... talks about (just for file but it applies to everything) secure file system interaction is absolutely heinous.
[1]: not path
I can't think of a case this API doesn't cover, but maybe there is one.
And you need to do that because nothing precludes having multiple entries to the same inode in the same directory, so you need to know specifically what the source direntry is, and a direntry is just a name in the directory file.
I don't, I am just saying that if you do things like e.g. user/group name resolution outside of the kernel, then they will be done in the userspace (duh) with all of the implications (crossing the trust boundaries, and philosophical discussion on what "the system [database/service/X]" even is, etc) that come with it. Doing it in the kernel has other implications, like how Windows does its SID lookups.
> what other options do you have?
Depends on whether or not you want to have the user namespaces, and how you want things across the namespace boundaries to interact. If you want to have /etc/passwd (or a more complex apparatus) of the core system to always be in effect, with no ability to override it with e.g. chroot(2) — then you can do it, with some help from the kernel side but that's both the silly idea in itself, and the kernel folks would never agree to add a do_rpc_with_global_secured_system_service(2) to the kernel anyway.
> Even if the kernel did have the capacity to maintain this information, something would need to load it or back it
During the system startup, a daemon is launched that registers itself as a "global, secured system service" providing the "resolve user/group names" functionality with the kernel. Now everyone can interact with it with the do_rpc_with_global_secured_system_service() syscall (the kernel passes the request to this specific process and routes the replies back), and there is no way to override this interaction; this service is a global singleton. I could spend pages on writing why this is a stupid idea, and I'm sure you know them as well — but it's doable, just not in the spirit of Linux at all.
P.S. A tangent, but I am always amused when people explain that execve(2) can't do PATH lookup for its first argument because the kernel doesn't have access to the process's environment variables. Of course it has, it's the third parameter! Linux just doesn't do any name resolution in the kernel, period, there is glibc for that.
Maybe we're agreeing, I'm not quite sure. But rather than having a separate concept of mapping IDs to names, you really want a unified concept of both, so that when you namespace it, you can't namespace half of it by accident.
Moreover, you want to ideally make it impossible to only namespace it and not anything which is affected by it. e.g. the filesystem where permissions are governed by user and group IDs.
The way this is currently done is with UID/GID mapping, which unless it is a 1:1 mapping to the current user, has to be done with privileges. But this restriction is a hint that the abstraction is bad.
Really what you'd want is to have the ability to also include the concept of "file owner" in the umbrella of "user namespace", so that you can have a setup where files can have arbitrary attributes settable by a user to specify that they're owned by "root" inside the namespace but by <you> outside it.
I'd say the problem is a fundamental design issue at multiple levels of the stack, exacerbated by the need to maintain backwards compatibility.
Plan9 solves this entire problem (albeit with its own trade-offs) by unifying all abstractions in the filesystem (but nothing, of course, stops you from unifying things via some IPC/RPC/whatever protocol, the filesystem in Plan 9 is just a mount of a 9P fileserver).
You literally can't get into a situation like the one described here.
The Rust coreutils were first rolled out in the previous release which was not LTS:
https://canonical.com/blog/canonical-releases-ubuntu-25-10-q...
Latency is at least two orders of magnitude higher. That is the (relevant) difference here. And treating it like a loc system with all the incidental non-optimizations made the NAS use-case take 40 hours for colored "ls" output.
And how is this feasible for a systems language? Rust becomes too impotent for its main use case if you only use safe rust.
My original point still stands... Coders historically cannot be trusted to manually manage memory, unless they're rust coders apparently
> So you don't need to "trust" that coders will remember not to call unsafe functions needlessly, because the tooling is there to have your back.
By definition, it isn't possible for a tool to reason about unsafe code, otherwise the rust compiler would do it
No, this is completely incorrect, and one of the most interesting and surprising results of Rust as an experiment in language design. An enormous proportion of Rust codebases need not have any unsafe code of their own whatsoever, and even those that do tend to have unsafe blocks in an extreme minority of files. Rust's hypothesis that unsafe code can be successfully encapsulated behind safe APIs suitable for the vast majority of uses has been experimentally proven in practice. Ironically, the average unsafe block in practice is a result of needing to call a function written in C, which is a symptom of not yet having enough alternatives written in Rust. I have worked on both freestanding OSes and embedded applications written in Rust--both domains where you would expect copious usage of unsafe--where I estimate less than 5% of the files actually contained unsafe blocks, meaning a 20x reduction in the effort needed to verify them (in Fred Brooks units, that's two silver bullets worth).
> Coders historically cannot be trusted to manually manage memory, unless they're rust coders apparently
Most Rust coders are not manually managing memory on the regular, or doing anything else that requires unsafe code. I'm not exaggerating when I say that it's entirely possible to have spent your entire career writing Rust code without ever having been forced to write an `unsafe` block, in the same way that Java programmers can go their entire career without using JNI.
> By definition, it isn't possible for a tool to reason about unsafe code, otherwise the rust compiler would do it
Of course it is. The Rust compiler reasons about unsafe code all the time. What it can't do is definitely prove many properties of unsafe code, which is why the compiler conservatively requires the annotation. But there are dozens of built-in warnings and Clippy lints that analyze unsafe blocks and attempts to flag issues early. In addition, Miri provides an interpreter in which to run unsafe code which provides dynamic rather than static analysis.
Show me system level rust code that only uses safe then... You can't because its impossible. I doesn't matter that it's a minority of files (!), the simple fact is you can't program systems without using unsafe. Rewrite the c dependencies in rust and the amount of unsafe code increases massively
> Most Rust coders are not manually managing memory on the regular
Another sidestep. If coders in general cannot be trusted to manage memory, why can a rust coder be trusted all of a sudden?
> . But there are dozens of built-in warnings and Clippy lints that analyze unsafe blocks and attempts to flag issues early.
We already had that, it wasn't enough, hence..... rust, remember?
I'm not sure which docs you mean but that's not true. The NT kernel has used ACLs long before rust was invented. But it's indeed true that rust adds platform-specific methods based on demand. The trouble with ACLs is it means either creating a large API surface in the standard library to handle them or else presenting a simple interface but having to manage raw pointers (likely using a wrapper type but even then it can't be made totally safe).
> the de-facto standard winapi crate, which provides access to the raw syscall
Since the official Microsoft `windows-sys` crate was released many years ago, the winapi crate has been effectively unmaintained (it accepts security patches but that's it).
I was looking at these: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/identity-...
> the winapi crate has been effectively unmaintained
Shows how much of a Windows dev I am. :P
As noted, the "minimum supported" version means exactly that, and does not reflect when the API function was introduced.
[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/secauthz/low...
[2]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winbase/...
According to https://www.geoffchappell.com/studies/windows/win32/advapi32..., the function was available first in advapi32 version 3.10, which was included in Windows NT 3.10 (14th July 1993): https://www.geoffchappell.com/studies/windows/win32/advapi32...
lpSecurityAttributes just refers to a SecurityAttributes struct (Rust bindings here: https://microsoft.github.io/windows-docs-rs/doc/windows/Win3...) Annoying pointers for sure, but nothing a Rust API can't work around with standard language features.
And sure, Rust could add the entire windows crate to the standard library, but my point is that this isn't just Windows functionality: getfacl/setfacl has been with us for decades but I don't know any standard library that tries to include any kind of ACLs.
Less than that actually, considering Rust has its own definition of what "safe" means.
> It isn't possible to create a programing language that doesn't allow bugs to happen
Yes, that’s true. No one doubts this. Except you seem to think that Rust promises no bugs at all? I don’t know where you got this impression from, but it is incorrect.
Rust promises that certain kinds of bugs like use-after-free are much, much less likely. It eliminates some kinds of bugs, not all bugs altogether. It’s possible that you’ve read the claim on kinds of bugs, and misinterpreted it as all bugs.
I’ve had this conversation before, and it usually ends like https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/aaaah
On the other hand, there are too many less-experienced Rust fans who do claim that "Rust" promises this and that any project that does not use Rust is doomed and that any of the existing decades-old software projects should be rewritten in Rust to decrease the chances that they may have bugs.
What is described in TFA is not surprising at all, because it is exactly what has been predicted about this and other similar projects.
Anyone who desires to rewrite in Rust any old project, should certainly do it. It will be at least a good learning experience and whenever an ancient project is rewritten from scratch, the current knowledge should enable the creation of something better than the original.
Nonetheless, the rewriters should never claim that what they have just produced has currently less bugs than the original, because neither they nor Rust can guarantee this, but only a long experience with using the rewritten application.
Such rewritten software packages should remain for years as optional alternatives to the originals. Any aggressive push to substitute the originals immediately is just stupid (and yes, I have seen people trying to promote this).
Moreover, someone who proposes the substitution of something as basic as coreutils, must first present to the world the results of a huge set of correctness tests and performance benchmarks comparing the old package with the new package, before the substitution idea is even put forward.
Could you please link one? Because I doubt it exists, or if it does, it is probably on some obscure website or downvoted to oblivion.
On the other hand, I see comments in every Rust thread that are basically restatements of yours attacking a strawman.
The reality: Rust does not prevent all bugs. In fact, it doesn't even prevent any bugs. What it actually does is make a certain particularly common and dangerous class of bugs much more difficult to write.
The goal claimed by all these rewrites is the elimination of bugs.
There are plenty of strong arguments to be made against rewriting something in Rust, but this is a pretty weak one.
Exactly what is the controversial take here?
> I don’t think brushing the bad parts off with “most of the code was really good!” is a fair way to look at this.
Nope. this is fine.
> Cloudflare crashed a chunk of the internet with a rust app a month or so ago, deploying a bad config file iirc.
Maybe this?
> Rust isn’t a panacea, it’s a programming language. It’s ok that it’s flawed, all languages are.
Nope, this is fine too.
> As long as it's unstable it's totally fair to say Rust's stdlib does not expose them. You might as well say it's fixed because someone posted a patch on a mailing list somewhere
Agreed. My comment was intended to be read as "it's planned and being worked on", not "it's available".
This kind of melodramatic reaction to rust code is fatiguing, honestly. Rust does not bill itself as some programming panacea or as a bug free language, and neither do any of the people I know using it. That's a strawman that just won't go away.
Rust applies constraints regarding memory use and that nearly eliminates a class of bugs, provided safe usage. And that's compelling to enough people that it warrants migration from other languages that don't focus on memory safety. Bugs introduced during a rewrite aren't notable. It happens, they get fixed, life moves on.
Your argument does not work as a praise for Rust because the bugs in any program are caused by programmer errors, except the very rare cases when there are bugs in the compiler tool chain, which are caused by errors of other programmers.
The bugs in a C or C++ program are also caused by programmer errors, they are not inherent to C/C++. It is rather trivial to write C/C++ carefully, in order to make impossible any access outside bounds, numeric overflow, use-after-free, etc.
The problem is that many programmers are careless, especially when they might be pressed by tight time schedules, so they make some of these mistakes. For the mass production of software, it is good to use more strict programming languages, including Rust, where the compiler catches as many errors as possible, instead of relying on better programmers.
What many do not accept among the claims of the Rust fans is that rewriting a mature and very big codebase from another language into Rust is likely to reduce the number of bugs of that codebase.
For some buggier codebases, a rewrite in Rust or any other safer language may indeed help, but I agree with the opinion expressed by many other people that in most cases a rewrite from scratch is much more likely to have bugs, regardless in what programming language it is written.
If someone has the time to do it, a rewrite is useful in most cases, but it should be expected that it will take a lot of time after the completion of the project until it will have as few bugs as mature projects.
Because all I see are examples of people claiming it happens all the time. Not the examples of it actually happening.
I’ve been using Rust for about 12 years now, and the only times I’ve had to reach for `unsafe` was to do FFI stuff. That’s it. Maybe others might have more unsafe code and for good reasons, but from my perspective, I don’t know wtf you’re talking about.
"well I don't need to use unsafe that much so I don't know what your point is" sounds like you don't really have an answer.
> If I have to use unsafe just to open a file, I might as well use C.
is a ridiculous exaggeration.
The parent was asking for access to the C syscall, and C syscalls are unsafe, including in C. You can wrap that syscall in a safe interface if you like, and many have. And to reiterate, I'm all for supporting this pattern in Rust's stdlib itself. But openat itself is a questionable API (I have not yet seen anyone mention that openat2 exists), and if Rust wanted to provide this, it would want to design something distinct.
> Why can I easily use "*at" functions from Python's stdlib, but not Rust's?
I'm not sure you can. The supported pattern appears to involve passing the optional `opener` parameter to `os.open`, but while the example of this shown in the official documentation works on Linux, I just tried it on Windows and it throws a PermissionError exception because AFAIK you can't open directories on Windows.
> which Rust's stdlib chose not to expose
i.e. expose through things like `File::open()`.
In this case it wouldn't seem to make sense to use `at` functions to back the standard file opening interface that Rust presents, because it requires different parameters, so a different API would need to be designed. Someone above mentioned that such an API is being considered for inclusion in libstd in this issue: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/120426
You can but you have to go through the lower level API: NtCreateFile can open a directory, and you can pass in a RootDirectory handle to following calls to make them handle-relative.
There is code available at the right level of abstraction (the rustix or openat crates), and while it's not managed by the Rust team, uutils already have many third party dependencies. Bringing up libc just because it's first party, instead, is comparing apple to oranges.
(grandparent comment): "Cloudflare crashed a chunk of the internet with a rust app a month or so ago"
The actual bug had nothing to do with rust, yet rust is specifically brought up here.
(grandparent comment): "Rust isn’t a panacea, it’s a programming language. It’s ok that it’s flawed, all languages are."
No Rust programmer thinks it's a panacea! Rust has never advertised itself this way.
And then, it turned out to not really be any better than exceptions.
Most Rust evangelism is like this. "In Rust you do X and this makes your code have fewer bugs!" Well no it doesn't. Manually propagating exceptions still makes the program crash and requires more typing, and doesn't emit a stack trace.
You’ve constructed a strawman with no basis in reality.
You know what actual Rust fans sound like? They sound like Matthias Endler, who wrote the article we’re discussing. Matthias hosts a popular podcast Rust in Production where talks with people about sharp edges and difficulties they experienced using Rust.
A true Rust advocate like him writes articles titled “Bugs Rust Won’t Catch”.
> Such rewritten software packages should remain for years as optional alternatives to the originals.
This project was started a decade ago. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7882211)
> must first present to the world the results of a huge set of correctness tests and performance benchmarks
Yeah, you can see those in https://github.com/uutils/coreutils. This project has also worked with GNU coreutils maintainers to add more tests over time. Check out the graph where the total number of tests increases over time.
> before the substitution idea is even put forward
I partly agree. But notice that these CVEs come from a thorough security audit paid for by Canonical. Canonical is paying for it because they have a plan to substitute in the immediate future.
Without a plan to substitute it’s hard to advocate for funding. Without funding it’s hard to find and fix these issues. With these issues unfixed it’s hard to plan to substitute.
Chicken and egg problem.
> less bugs
Fewer.
I do not care about what they say, so I have not made a list with links to what they have posted. But even only on HN, I certainly have seen much more than one hundred of such postings, more likely at least several hundreds, even on threads that did not have any close relationship with Rust, so there was no reason to discuss Rust.
Since the shameless promotion with false claims of Java by Sun, during the last years of the previous century, there has not been any other programming language affected by such a hype campaign.
I think that this is sad. Rust has introduced a few valid innovations and it is a decent programming language. Despite this, whenever someone starts mentioning Rust, my first reaction is to distrust whatever is said, until proven otherwise, because I have seen far too many ridiculous claims about Rust.
I’ll tell you what I think you’ve seen - there are hundreds of threads where you’ve seen people claim they’ve seen this everywhere. That gives you the impression that it is universal.
Link some comments like this? Because I've been reading Rust discussions for years and never seen them.
Whether or not it was wise for Canonical to attempt to then take that codebase and uplift it into Ubuntu is a different story altogether, but one that has no bearing on the motivations of the people behind the original port itself.
You can see an alternative approach with the authors of sudo-rs. Rather than porting all of userspace to Rust for fun, they identified a single component of a particularly security-critical nature (sudo), and then further justified their rewrite by removing legacy features, thereby producing an overall simpler tool with less surface area to attack in the first place. It was not "we're going to rewrite sudo in Rust so it has fewer bugs", it was "we're going to rewrite sudo with the goal of having fewer bugs, and as one subcomponent of that, we're going to use Rust". And of course sudo-rs has had fresh bugs of its own, as any rewrite will. But the mere existence of bugs does not invalidate their hypothesis, which is that a conscientious rewrite of a tool can result in fewer bugs overall.
Similarly, sudo-rs dropping "legacy" features leaves a bad taste in my mind, there are multiple privilege escalation tools that exist (doas being the first that comes to mind), and doing something better and not claiming "sudo" (and rather providing a compat mode ala podman for docker) would to me seem a better long term path than causing more breakage (and as shown by uutils, breakage on "core" utils can very easily lead to security issue).
I personally find uutils lack of care to be concerning because I've been writing (as a very low priority side project) a network utility in rust, and while it not aiming to be a drop in rewrite for anything, I would much rather not attract the same drama.
What the motivation and intent was in 2013 is not necessarily relevant to what the motivation and intent is now.
It's even less relevant to what the effect is: the goal may be to replace $FOO software with $BAR software, but as things stand right now $FOO is "GPL" and $BAR is "MIT".
So, yeah, I don't want them to succeed at their primary goal, because that replaces pro-user software with pro-business software.
No, they openly refuse to accept any GPL code. And even have a strict policy of not even reading GPL code.
The comment you linked says something specific about a specific kind of bug being eliminated - memory safety bugs. And they’re not making a claim, they’re repeating the evidence gathered from the Android codebase. So that’s a fact, memory safety bugs truly did not appear in the Rust parts of Android.
The comment you linked is not claiming Rust code is bug-free. That’s a strawman I’ve seen many, many times. Haters will claim that this happens all the time, but all I see are examples of the haters claiming this. You had to go back 5 months and still couldn’t find anything similar to the strawman.
> This one probably covers it
No, probably not.