Where to buy a non-Apple, non-Google smartphone(theregister.com) |
Where to buy a non-Apple, non-Google smartphone(theregister.com) |
There's a bunch of officially supported phones but most Android phones will have unofficial support also.
> Well, probably, yes.
Even with "probably" as a qualifier, this is disingenuous.
Not even Android has caught up to the highest tier of apps available on iOS.
which apps do you mean?
LMAO
Like for example, every crappy things like banks nowadays requires their own shitty app. It might be a pain in the ass to share between phones or to reinstall if you lose or change your phone. And all these useless app consume really a lot of storage resulting in my phone's being always full.
That would be perfect to access it in a kind of remote access for use once in a while.
It was sold normally as any other cellphone.
Also, it's only for fast charging, you can use any other charger or wire without an issue.
Nowadays, you can no longer exist in society without a phone. Most things will work but it takes one critical service that doesn't have a viable workaround, and you're forced to buy (and possibly carry) a "mainstream" phone just for that.
Banking, government, authentication, postal service and public transit apps are just some of the common categories that will, in the end, force you to use one of those systems, unless governments mandate viable alternatives. The QR-code based recaptcha that's being introduced will be another brick in the wall.
As an individual, it feels like my options are to either submit or try to live a hermit's life, bringing endless suffering and exclusion to myself.
Fight this, fight it hard. It is not acceptable to have to pay a monthly fee to a giant corporation to participate in unrelated things.
I do have a cell phone (grudgingly) but I go way out of my way to never use it. I tell every business I only have a landline phone (which I do have). I will not use anything that supposedly requires a phone, give me an alternative or you're not getting my business.
While I don't have the full ethical commitment of RMS, I can be very obstinate and will push this hard.
Do you always have to pay a monthly fee with a smartphone? Are there pre-paid SIM cards?
Hyperbole doesn’t help. I’m a 44 year old former software engineer now with a modest social media following (100k per platform). I don’t have a phone.
I’ve never had a smart phone, last dumb phone gone in 2015.
I have to hassle my bank to let me use email instead of SMS for 2FA, and I hand jot notes for driving directions sometimes.
Otherwise, I’m immensely happy not to have one.
I think people have been brain washed to believe they can no longer live life without being enslaved by a surveillance device.
Lost? Ask for directions. Need a map? Go to a hotel or a tourist center, or print one in advance.
This anecdata probably says more about french techno-fascism and politics of destroying public services than about how phones have somehow become mandatory because of society evolving in general. I'm still very happy not to have a phone.
Is it the phone or just the mobile operating system? I do most of my phone stuff on a tablet that I keep at home - where it's safer. I am currently using an Android phone (without an account) for GPS, phone calls (contacts), internet, games, email (alternatives to google), etc...
But for those critical and sensitive apps (banking, etc)... I consider those to be too dangerous to be walking around with.
So any phone will serve (I can wait to get home to check email for example).
Towards the end, I copied other peoples QR-codes and printed them out, and that worked nicely as well.
I don’t have a phone.
If they weren't denying Dorothy, that means you did not need an app.
I do just fine without.
But certainly there are additional challenges. In my city, for example, there has been a massive shift towards phone-pay parking... which excludes my paying for it — still waiting for my citation (to challenge in court).
Carrying my pager with me is the only reason people will pretend-believe I'm actually phoneless. Many have never seen beeper technology, its one-way advancedness.
That's not true, because in the 1990s there was no presumption that everyone has a major-vendor smartphone. Now, the ways to do things without a smartphone are often disappearing, so things are more inconvenient. For example, ticket machines and printed schedules for public transit are going away in many places.
What I would find inconvenient is to be like the smartphone zombies around me, adicted to their phones, restlessly doomscrolling with dead eyes, feeling empty inside.
Print some stuff from time to time or arguing my way through tickets offices is a small price to pay for not being enslaved to the IT-machine.
Do people realize that this means either of these companies, since they can remotely turn off your account or device, can deplatform you from society including from many government services?
It's an astounding amount of power we have simply ceded to these two companies.
We didn't do it, our representatives did it for us, mostly unaware of what they were doing and still without a clue about what to do with whatever they've created. No they can't, and they won't, academia BS isn't helping anyone either.
I am not remotely defending the situation, past or present, just saying it’s a recurring theme.
Hyperbole much.
I’m a 44 year old software engin, I don’t have a phone. Have never had a smart phone, haven’t had a dumb phone since 2015.
Some things are annoying, for example, I have to keep pushing my bank to let me use email not SMS. Going somewhere new I’ll look online on my laptop and jot down a few directions on paper.
That’s about it.
I snowboard and hike and hunt and camp and fish, no coverage doing all those anyway, so much of my life when not in a house with a laptop I simply don’t need or want one.
If my phone breaks, I will die? :)
Perhaps it's this spreading of this lie that it's impossible to live without a phone that is contributing to the problem
Classic "all-or-nothing", "black and white" HN comment
No middle ground. Two extremes and nothing in between
In the real world, few people think this way
Not only that, but it's common today to have more than one computer
There is no shortage of HN comments that keep claiming "banking apps" as an argument against any alternatives to using a single phone running a corporate mobile OS _for everything they do with a computer_, not just banking. Feels like a meme
These people must do a lot of banking on the go in places where laptops, for instance, cannot travel. If so, one wonders why not just have a phone dedicated to mobile banking
HN replies often try to reframe this problem from
(a) "How do I avoid using an Apple or Google smartphone" for whatever reason^[FN1]
to
(b) "Banking apps do not work on non-Apple, non-Google" smartphones
or
(c) Apple and Google smartphones need to become likeable, e.g., by pleading with the companies, petitioning the government for regulation, etc.
FN1. I have not seen any HN comments that suggest anyone is concerned about _using a banking app_ on an Apple or Google smartphone. What I have seen are comments that suggest Apple and Google smartphones are unsatisfactory for _other reasons_, such as being "locked down", "not an open platform", "privacy" risks, "security" flaws, etc. The non-banking uses of these smartphones are what cause concern
The problem (a) can be solved by choosing a non-Apple, non-Google smartphone, `i.e., a smartphone running a non-Apple, non-Google OS, or, better yet, by choosing a different form factor running a non-Apple, non-Google OS, _for non-banking uses_
There are some commenters who obviously have no intention of avoiding Apple and Google smarthones _where possible_. They will keep using these smartphones for _everything_, not just online banking
Whether it may be possible to convince a bank to give you a hardware token instead if they even still make them is not an assured thing.
millions of people would like a word…
> Most things will work but it takes one critical service that doesn't have a viable workaround, and you're forced to buy (and possibly carry) a "mainstream" phone just for that.
Absolutely not, if there is “critical service” that requires an iPhone or Android you call an attorney.
> Banking, government, authentication, postal service and public transit apps are just some of the common categories that will, in the end, force you to use one of those systems, unless governments mandate viable alternatives.
There are now and there always will be alternatives
> As an individual, it feels like my options are to either submit or try to live a hermit's life, bringing endless suffering and exclusion to myself.
As an individual you can and should fight any system that forces you into buying a smartphone. Alternatives must exist even if they might be “incovenient” (e.g. have to do it browser vs. via some “App”)
I disagree, because the impact on my quality of life from fighting the fight is just not a level of sacrifice that is sensible.
> There are now and there always will be alternatives
The problem is that those "alternatives" often come with serious downsides, from higher cost, to massive inconvenience, to having to work around simply not having a service. And while most of the time it's possible to work around it, most people quickly hit the limit where the cost isn't bearable.
This happens all the time on multiple KYC platforms in the US.
My laptop is an equally mobile device, they just don't recognize that.
The article starts with Murena, Punkt, Volla which are all based on Android. If you do this, then imho you must mention GrapheneOS, the by far better option (updates, privacy, security, organisation).
Google Pixel with GrapheneOS is the best non-Google phone... ;-)
The kindest was that the store's staff advised against buying the device as it's quite painful to use it with Google's apk & blobs, because it drains more battery than when it's integrated with your system services directly. I told him, that maybe rare, but I'm actually happy to not use Google apps as much as possible and especially not within my operating system. Another point he made was that 5G'A is blocked by Google, about that I know nothing to be honest.
Some Android forks are indeed quite nice, but the issue has always been the updating model, upstream maintenance and compatibility. With Harmony OS a large cooperation with the consumers in focus and the one developing the entire hardware stack is behind the OS development and maintenance making it safer against supply-chain hacks and a deeper integration possible than any other OS.
ArkTS, inspired in Typescript and similar nodejs runtime.
Naturally due to performance problems, they decided to come up with another one, also Typescript inspired, but ahead of time compiled, GC and effects.
It is called Canjgie.
This naturally is a big effort rebooting the whole ecosystem, it only works because Huawei could focus on the Chinese market after losing Android.
There's "OpenHarmony", but the question is whether we can practically run it on Huawei devices..
I had to find a bunch of workarounds to have payments working (I ended vibe-coding my payments app in ArkTS, don't ask) and messaging apps, and well, I use it with almost 0 compromises on a daily basis. It feels like a breeze of fresh air to know there are other devices and platforms out there that, even if seen as the bad guys here in the western world, can be used as a way to escape the established monopolies.
Maybe I should go for Graphene as a safer option to free myself from GMS and Google/Apple in general, but that would require me buying a Pixel device from Google... which I don't like to be honest.
Enjoy your freedom, break free from Google and Apple.
Have a full Linux computer in your pocket that you can also use for calling.
See also the discussion on this post: https://mastodon.social/@janvlug/116504044251287290
They develop Sailfish, a non-Google Linux-based mobile OS that can apparently run Android apps decently in a sandbox.
I have been daily driving SFOS on a Sony Xperia 10 III for the past 3 years and it works well for me. I think the 10 III is the current "peak Sailfish" at least among the officially supported devices but this should change once the new phones roll out in early July. For new orders of the 2026 phone they are currently aiming for delivery in September in the supported markets (EU, UK, Norway and Switzerland).
A third ecosystem right now would have been amazing
All of the copy seems to be built around Solana, "Web3" and crypto. It doesn't seem to have any appeal outside of that. It's not clear what the software even is. The docs [0] seem to indicate it's just Android, with some SDKs for interacting with the "Web3" stuff.
This isn't a "serious attempt at creating an app store that can compete with apple or google", it's just another "Web3" project. It's exciting to people within that ecosystem and utterly uninteresting to anybody who isn't.
0: https://docs.solanamobile.com/get-started/development-setup
At least this way I can keep the majority of bloat away from primary communications device.
But I haven't dared yet because I kind of expect it will not be able to replace my current phone.
But then it's just maintained by very few people nowadays and half abandoned.
You can buy a used Pixel 3a if you want to toy around with it, they cost nothing.
The OS experience is pretty impressive for not being made by an evil megacorp. The hardware is fairly midrange, but midrange today is last year's top end, and unless you're some expert photographer or needing phone VR or whatever, it's a great, normal smartphone experience.
I'm donating to the open source devs who make my apps, and they respond when I ask for useful features instead of always enshittifying it. For the corpo apps, it pulls from Google Play.
Okay, no touch typing, maps apps don't start or don't find your location, WhatsApp probably doesn't work and I guess I don't have to start with banking apps.
They keep saying "If you don’t pay for the product, you are the product". Okay, all fine and well.
But what will my phone still actually be able to do if / when I stop my subscription? Not a single clear answer besides "[…] gradual feature deactivation, and ultimately reverting to a device running AOSP".
Doesn’t really inspire confidence.
What subscription?
https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone
There's a little bit - but barely - more about AphyOS in the FAQ if you scroll way down.
Many many years ago, smarphone users had these choices:
Symbian, BlackBerry, Windows Mobile, PalmOS... what else?
Yes, it is quite hard to get a non-duopoly smartphone..
Volla and Murena are pushing Unified Attestation, a similar system to Google Play Strong Integrity, that they can use to block competition.
Besides that, both Murena and Volla have abysmal security and Volla is mostly in the business of German-washing Chinese smartphones. E.g. their Volla Phone Quintus is a smartphone designed by an Emirates company, largely produced in China, that can be had for 150 Euro new on the ebay.ae .
So I'm not sure how can you suggest GOS is less "degoogled" while not shipping anything but allowing to install sandboxed / constrained play services, while comparing it to /e/OS which ships with a privileged plug.
Also, if you want to run a secure android, that's not /e/OS either.
(Murena /e/OS is similar. No, slamming the downvote button won't make either of them any less Google dependant OSes.)
From Wikipedia: "GrapheneOS[b] (/ˈɡræfiːn.oʊˈɛs/) is a free and open-source, privacy- and security-focused, Android-based operating system"
So still Android.
You can't escape it.
Your friends and employers and banks use it. The state will soon mandate it for ID. It's the accepted worldwide compute platform, and you're being the nail that sticks out.
Your usage is subject to breaking randomly, being unsupported, losing access or being banned by stepping outside the traffic lines, etc.
They'll use attestation, certs and signing, proprietary APIs, and the scale and might of trillions of dollars to force this.
The only way to "break free" and "enjoy your freedom" is via regulation and -- the better option -- trust busting.
The EU and ASEAN are the best bets for regulation. Getting another Lina Khan that works faster next time is the next best bet for regulation, and possibly a superior outcome that could result in a breakup opening up mobile for true competition.
Being weird in the 0.0001% will not last, nor does it help anyone else escape this monopolistic tyranny.
We need the government to pave the way for dozens of Apple/Google competitors. Or to horizontally split these two companies into dozens of "Baby Bells" that are forced to fight one another.
Use some banking apps. In fact I cannot use one banking app I otherwise would because it will only work if you have no non-store apps installed at all.
A regulatory requirement to prove my ID without using the mobile app would be a 20 min+ each way drive (plus walking, time doing it etc.) to another town.
> The EU and ASEAN are the best bets for regulation.
Did you read the recent HN stories about the EU's age verification app that will only work on attested phones? Lots of other governments (EU and non-EU) doping similar things.
> We need the government to pave the way for dozens of Apple/Google competitors. Or to horizontally split these two companies into dozens of "Baby Bells" that are forced to fight one another.
I have very little confidence that is likely. Politically governments are far more pro-big business and anti-competition than they have been in a long time.
> Being weird in the 0.0001% will not last, nor does it help anyone else escape this monopolistic tyranny.
Every single person who does not go along, is a a political and commercial argument not to remove alternatives. If I use a website and an app to bank or buy something, it pushes up the stats for the web app vs the mobile app.
Back OT, smartphones were always less open than the general purpose computers of yore. And it looks like they are increasingly a requirement for participating in many societies. In general I don't find this a good thing, but have little faith that regulators will 'solve' is because they have their own pitfalls (recent examples from EU: age verification and chat control).
You just buy a separate, cheap Android/Google phone for all these things. Emphasis on buying the cheapest one possible, so Google and Apple aren't making much money off you.
>We need the government to
Since they'll never, any marketers scrolling by: this is your time to scheme your way into the Linux phone promotion/sales game.
Not many tech products exite me less than the concept of a Microsoft Windows 365 Copilot Cortana phone.
As I recall Microsoft threw quite a lot of resources into Windows Phone.
My then-employer had apps for Android and Apple, and Microsoft literally paid for us to port it to Windows Phone. Microsoft brought Nokia, who had dominated the industry in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
And Microsoft was early to the mobile party too - you could get an iPaq H3660 running Microsoft Pocket PC 2000, seven years before the first iPhone. Keyboardless Fujitsu and Compaq tablets ran Windows XP Tablet PC Edition in 2003, seven years before the iPad.
They weren't as good as what came later. Chunky, fragile devices, resistive touchscreens, stylus input with a tiny on-screen keyboard, worse batteries, worse wifi, barely any mobile data. And at the time, $500 seemed hugely expensive compared to a normal phone, even if these days there are plenty of $1000 smartphones.
But there's an alternate reality where Microsoft had a 'first mover advantage' and captured a big slice of the smartphone-and-tablet market.
I loved my Windows phones (especially near the end when you were getting Pixel & Apple level hardware for pennies on the dollar), but is this really true? They had limited hardware partners (and the disaster with Nokia), lukewarm carrier deals, absolutely no apps, but who were these "influential people" who made fun of it? If anything it seemed more like no-one was even aware of it. I remember the little press they did get being quite positive on the devices & OS, while critical of the broader ecosystem, which seems fair.
Initially read this ending on … amazon
Please Universe, don’t give us the Amazon Phone as alternative.
I'm guessing they'll try again at some point, though.
I miss the old tokens they used to use. So simple, anonymous, easy to share with traveling companions, though could be annoying when you ran out.
Open Harmony apparently is Huawei trying their own version of something like AOSP.
Most of the documents seem to only exist in chinese.
YIKES tying privacy hardware to a subscription. Maybe they’re two-year burners then, like a partially inverted warranty.
Gradual feature deactivation should be fine if it’s incredibly transparent. So they lose too many sales if they just charge the whole lifetime customer value right upfront, and subscription is the solution.
Thank you for that. Well I do wish them luck!
They also run proprietary Google blobs in a privileged process to pass basic Play Integrity and give certain Google apps higher privileges than the normal Android sandbox.
Aside from Google, Fairphone 6 (both the stock OS and /e/OS) ship with proprietary, Chinese TCL blobs for image processing (most likely also privileged).
Besides that, /e/OS often uses way outdated Linux kernel versions and firmware bundles with many known CVEs and old major Android versions, having many unfixed vulnerabilities that are not marked high/critical (ASBs only give you high/critical fixes).
Fairphone does not have a secure enclave, only TrustZone. So, secrets can be extracted using frequently-found side-channel accounts. The lack of a secure enclave + the many available CVEs, it will probably fail within seconds when using data extraction tools like Cellebrite, even when the phone is locked. So better not bring your phone to demonstrations or border crossings.
But hey, it doesn't matter, because Murena's CEO says security hardening is only for spies and pedophiles.
(Friends don't recommend friends Fairphone or /e/OS.)
I lived in mega cities for 10 years, I’ll never do it again.
Call in hermit life if you want, I call it the simple life where enjoyment and happiness are the priority
Maybe the reason this guy gets away with not having a smartphone is that his friends use their smartphones for him whenever things like this pop up?
Personally I would recommend postmarketOS + plasma mobile instead, but I didn't think ubports/lomiri were dead yet.
Because you made yourself dependent on these smartphone-only services beforehand. Don't do that.
Interesting. I feel then that if this is the case we cannot complain then, no? If the fight is not worth fighting (I think that it is) than complaints about it are pointless (for the lack of a softer word…)
So Microsoft basically said: "as a thanks for being an early adopter, you know have to buy a completely new phone again". For reference, Windows Phone 7 was initially released in October 2010 and Windows Phone 8 in October 2012. After that many (technically-inclined) early adopters left.
Microsoft destroyed Windows Phone.
Nadella's Azure play basically saved Microsoft in my opinion. They totally blew mobile and desktop Windows and Office were declining markets and XBox was a sideshow.
This is not a single unified front. Multiple battles are ongoing simultaneously.
There are strong proponents of anti-monopoly and digital sovereignty in government, just as there are those that want to push for a surveillance state.
Here are some recent and non-insignificant things that the EU and UK have required Google and Apple do:
- Support "side loaded" apps (as Google works to remove the ability)
- Standardize on USB-C
- Force alternative payments platforms
- Force Apple to stop requiring WebKit and WebKit runtimes
They're just getting started!
> I have very little confidence that is likely.
I have a great deal of confidence that the world is ready for this. Every non-US nation wants to break the stranglehold US tech has on their countries. The EU, UK, and ASEAN have a tremendous amount of power here.
We also have a huge reservoir of political support for breaking up tech monopolies inside the US. Lots of high profile politicians are ready to go to work on this, on both sides of the aisle.
Moreover, you have every single other company on the planet that wants this duopoly fractured. Entire industries that salivate over this.
It's just a matter of time and making sure we make these points articulate and loudly heard.
This is far more effective than trying to hack your device and proclaim "year of linux on android 2030". That doesn't work. It's a miserable experience and doesn't help a single other person.
It doesn't work for you. There are lots of people in this thread dailying a Linux device, it's a perfectly valid choice if you're not conjoined at the hip with mobile apps. Your assertion that it helps nobody is obviously dishonest projection.
Now, PostmarketOS won't rescue the billions of apathetic people on the planet, but why should it? Those people will sabotage themselves over and over again for the sake of convenience. Even banning iPhones/Android in your country won't fix the issue, we saw that in China. Your only solution is to advocate for yourself, you can't rely on the greater hacker consciousness to instinctively protect your user experience.
On the other hand, while GOS is running Google services sandboxed, they are still running and have access to internet. If you try enabling them only when you need push notifications, they will break - notifications stop coming.
Neither system is optimal - can we please get microG sandboxed on GOS, pretty please?
Where is this?
I have lots of bank accounts, probably more than most people. Three local credit unions, Fidelity, Schwab, Chase, BofA, Citibank, Barclays, two local area banks, and two international banks. Plus a few lesser known ones for 401k/IRA accounts.
I have never installed any bank phone app. I do all my bank interactions from my desktop via Firefox.
There can be alternatives in some cases (some banks offer code generating card readers, for example) but for personal accounts in particular, it would probably be difficult to operate without banking apps.
If Google decides to remove a feature, GrapheneOS and other forks will end up without it too. If they stop publishing security patches, the forks end up insecure too.
It's just like all the Chrome "forks" when ManifestV2 died. None of them survived for more than a few versions until maintainers lost interest.
Calling any of these Google free is downright lying.
i think though that the chrome manifestV2 support example is not really applicable to your argument though. chrome still exists, and the removal of a feature is not the same thing as stopping to release sources altogether. if google had stopped releasing chrome sources then some chrome forks with v2 support would still exist. same i believe would be true if google stopped android releases.
same goes for security patches. a lot of effort in forks now is put in keeping up with android (and chrome) releases. if those releases stop then the effort would be able to shift towards security patches. would it be better or worse? hard to say. depends on the resources the forks would manage to gather to do the work.
so in general the problem is not with supporting v2, the problem is that except for a few special extensions that need v2 features there is no point because all those v2 extensions out there will either be ported to v3 or they will be unmaintained.
the maintainers of chrome forks with v2 support lost interest because the developers of v2 extensions stopped maintaining them.
E.g. they tried to implement dark mode website conversion and decided it's too hard to do anything that Google themselves don't do.
> restaurant menus
Out of all the examples you have presented everything had worked somehow without phones not so long ago.
Maybe, with the exception of online public transit status streaming. And public transit still works without it.
On the occasions where I've been to a restaurant that tries to pull off the QR nonsense, I just ask for a menu, I tell them I don't have a phone.
I've yet to see one where they can't find me an actual menu. If it ever happens, I'll walk out and be very annoyingly loud at letting them know why they lost my business.
Pushing for your rights isn't always pleasant, but it's important.
This is called change :-) Slowly boiling the frogs.
Things like paid surface parking lots. Used to you could pay at a machine or a lot attendant, well there aren’t attendants anymore and few people use the machines so there isn’t enough incentive to fix them when they’re vandalized.
Some restaurants have printed backup menus but some straight up don’t. Printing menus costs money, why spend it if they don’t have to?
Digital signage that tells you how far away transit is, whether there are currently adjusted times, etc. is a lower priority now that everyone has maps in their pocket that track the transit in real time.
Showing up to a concert early to convince the ticket window to give you a physical ticket for a digital only event, and then they want email proof or to visibly see an app on the smartphone that is glitching is ridiculous.
The list of tiny cuts goes on and on. All of them worked without smartphones but the incentives flipped and now you can’t escape and you don’t realize the backups are gone until you try it for a while. It sucks.
I can and have gone days without a phone in “semirural” areas (not even Amish) and have been fine.
Restaurants without printed menus are just not places I’ll go.
Tbh I see no reason why all of that couldn't just be a website instead of a native app. Menus should just be a website, transit should still be offering physical metro cards, the lockers & bikes could just as easily be a website.
Folks on HN won't like this ida but quite frankly I'd go a step further and have a mandate that services like these must offer an API for the public to use in order to bring their own app/solution. It'd be nice to not be limited to exclusively first party options. How ridiculous is it that there are so many different pay for parking apps, when if all of them just offered an API I could roll my one all in one parking web app, etc.
I'd even pay a subscription, like many of these services offer already, for API access instead.
Listing a few challenges of a phoneless life doesn’t negate the point that one can still exist without a phone, even in 2026.
I’d also spend more of my life staring at a small device instead of talking to people or just enjoying the trees, mountains and rivers.
On the whole, I much prefer it this way.
Very true. But it is a huge first step.
The good news is that I can go into the nearby T-Mobile store and have them deal with it.
I have 7 lines with unlimited data for under $150.
If a country can provide housing, roads, fire departments, public transit, etc. that might cover 98% of most people's use cases.
But perhaps that country is also fighting wars, committing genocide, perpetrating mass surveillance, propping up an oligarchy, manipulating currency, practicing authoritarianism, etc. ?
There might be points that need to be made and changes that need to be implemented, even if the average citizen or user doesn't directly see the impact or feel immediate exposure.
One of the reasons this is hard is that the general public doesn't understand the greater second and third order effects. And even if they do, they are typically inarticulate at expressing how this is dysregulated and dysfunctional to the broader economy and capitalism.
Luckily, there are plenty of very wealthy people that are disenfranchised by this that will loudly take up arms. Domestic competitors, business leaders, other impacted industries, etc. That's how and why this will change.
Tim Sweeney isn't the only one interested in this.
https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/en/knowledge-base/digital-id...
My guess is that given that banks are liable in many cases of account compromise where the user did not do anything wrong, they generally don't use SMS or e-mail auth because it is relatively easy to compromise (e.g. no or bad encryption, downgrade attacks, etc). Also, doing 2FA through a smartphone app is much cheaper for them than keeping a fleet of authenticators running.
Luckily, it looks like PSD3 is going to require access without a smartphone too:
Require payment services providers to ensure that all users can benefit from methods to perform SCA which are adapted to their needs and situations and, in particular, that those methods do not depend on one single technology, device or mechanism, for instance on the possession of a smartphone.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/el/qanda_...
So things are looking up in that respect.
I have no idea why people think in-person banking is superior, it is a pain in the arse.
That said, my bank predates all the fintechs by decades and was phone-first before smartphones.
So, the solution is not to suggest that people should not use a smartphone. That ship has sailed. I agree that it should still be possible to do things without for people that do not want to use one. But you are not going to convince more than a small percentage of the population to abandon smartphones.
Instead we should focus on making alternative smartphone ecosystems (AOSP can be a starting point) and getting technology that is used to shut out competition (e.g. Google Play Strong Integrity) banned.
It’s just the typical HN humble brag thread about being present and owning no technology.
Awesome that these folks don’t own a phone and give their landline to businesses. I love that for them.
But I like my smartphone, GPS directions, digital wallets, streaming music, etc. I just don’t want it to be controlled by two companies. I want there to be a healthy market of multiple options including open source alternatives.
This for me has been achieved on my desktop and laptop but not yet on my smartphone.
You can print the boarding pass at the airline kiosk at the airport, at least in any US airport I've been to. I always do this.
As noted in a peer post I try very hard to do everything without a phone. I do have a phone but don't want to depend on it.
Boarding passes in particular seem very unreliable on a phone. I always have the paper boarding pass printed at the airport but for curiosity I check the phone app boarding pass. More than 50% of the time the phone app boarding pass hangs from bad connectivity while standing at the gate and I can't retrieve it. Fortunately I always have the printed boarding pass so that always works. Paper does not rely on internet connectivity so it will always be infinitely more reliable.
I really have the impression that using a smartphone makes a lot people much more dumb with respect to seeing obvious solutions for their problems.
Also luggage check-in counters will print a boarding pass.
I’m not sure about Wizz Air, I’ve never flown with them and their website isn’t quite as clear as Ryanairs.
[1] https://www.ryanair.com/ie/en/lp/explore/digital-boarding-pa...
Let's be realistic; payment services are convenient, but not advantageous in every single way.
I don't own a smartphone. I have never owned a smartphone. There are inconveniences, and big organizations definitely try to push you toward the way of doing things which has the lowest costs for them - but there are no actual blockers. There is always a path involving actual humans, and regular phone calls (or emails or paper forms).
Reactions tend to be wistful variations of "I wish I could" or "but how do you?" - and it's really always about the most trivial inconveniences.
Cash does not to need to be used anywere, but cards can be avoided for weeks until I need to use it again. Most can be handled by cash or bank transfer without problems.
For phones I have not any Google Android or iOS until a year ago. Nowdays I have a Google work phone, but it's always in flight mode except when a pay my lunch subsidized by employer. I type this comment on my Sailfish device and I use a degoogled Android. Can cause minor inconvenienance occasionally, but rarely enough to turn on my work phone.
That's an amazing difference compared to the UK. My local town had 5 bank branches ten years ago, now there are none. Until 2 weeks ago we didn't even have a cash machine; fortunately there is one now. It is something that has rapidly changed in the last 15 years.
1. My bank doesn't allow to go in person without an in-app taken appointment.
2. My nephew can't play football in his team, because the team has an app to book/signal your availability. No other way.
3. Half of restaurants in my area do not have non-QR code menus, they just don't.
4. McDonald's will make me pay the scam pricing you get without the app.
5. My doctor gives documentation only and exclusively in digital form, on a special application that doesn't even have a desktop equivalent.
6. My fiance's office badges are smartphone-based. You cannot enter otherwise.
7. All the software she uses at work requires frequent Google/Apple/third party authentication.
8. Increasingly more European airlines exclusively accept in-app check in and documentation. You cannot print it. Ryanair's one of them.
I could go on for longer.
2., 3., 4. Voting with your wallet once again.
5. That would be illegal in many jurisdictions, some countries even have a centralized systems for doctors to upload documentation (that you access using your ID as an authentication token).
6., 7. Unless the employer provides said smartphone, that would be illegal to require in most countries.
8. Vote with your wallet, also all such airlines can print a boarding pass for free if you do the checkin on the website.
My village has one football team, not N. There's one burger place, not two.
For the rest, appealing to legality is pointless, I ain't bringing my family doctor to a tribunal over this, this is real life and me being petty for not wanting to use a phone. Being right years from now is beyond pointless.
I've been in multiple clubs/events that you can enter exclusively after having downloaded the app.
3. you don't need an Apple or Google account to scan a QR code and open a web page.
4. Why is it "scam" pricing? You're getting a discount from giving them your information with an app. Like Kindle charging more to remove adverts. Dislikable, scummy not scammy. (i.e. they aren't taking your money and providing nothing and then disappearing).
6. I think in the UK / Europe the employer would have to provide your fiancee with a company phone so she could access her workplace, and could not legally require her to have a personal phone with an employer managed/controlled app on it.
7. Does Google/Apple authentication require a Google/Apple app? I see "sign in with Google" on web pages on my Windows desktop. Google Authenticator app is a fairly standard OTP passcode app which can be done in many other programs, password vaults and browser plugins.
8. Ryanair says you can check-in on their website: https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-us/articles/12888891271953-Ho...
Last year I could check in on their website, but needed the app for the boarding card. They might have changed that, but that article doesn't make it clear.
Or you're free to queue at 5 am for your 8.30 am free for an hour+at their counter.
With regards to specific points that match with my reality:
> "My fiance's office badges are smartphone-based. You cannot enter otherwise."
I worked for a company where that was a thing. Easy fix: They issued me (and others) a smartphone for that. And that slab never left the workplace either; I fetched/returned it before/after my day by notifying the security desk.
Everything else on your list is either irrelevant or unnacceptable to me, or simply illegal where I live.
Not knocking this list, the shit is real. But I just had a lovely imaginary conversation with a server asking them what they would recommend and then trying something brand new.
That was my last time going to that restaurant.
What about other banks?
> 3. Half of restaurants in my area do not have non-QR code menus, they just don't.
That's crazy. I don't think I even saw 50% during COVID. Must be barely 5% of places that are QR only in the UK.
> 4. McDonald's will make me pay the scam pricing you get without the app.
Isn't it a scam even with the app pricing? The quality is so so bad these days I feel scammed even paying £1.50 for a burger.
> 5. My doctor gives documentation only and exclusively in digital form, on a special application that doesn't even have a desktop equivalent.
> 6. My fiance's office badges are smartphone-based. You cannot enter otherwise.
Are those compatible with disability laws?
> 8. Increasingly more European airlines exclusively accept in-app check in and documentation. You cannot print it. Ryanair's one of them.
That is not true for Ryanair.
https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/articles/12889016882065-Ca... :
"You can check in on the Ryanair.com website or on the mobile App"
"If you checked in but cannot present your boarding pass on the app when you arrive at the airport, you will receive a free of charge boarding pass."
(This it is more difficult as their appears to be even fewer staff around than before)
Also:
"You can check in for your flight at the airport, but you will have to pay an airport check-in fee per passenger to cover the extra cost of the airport check-in service. Please see our Table of Fees."
(Admittedly very very expensive)
Just joined an informal queue (no digital queueing system! The humans used their eyes and brain to remember who next )
Handed over my physical debit card so they could locate my account.
What digital hellscape do you live in? UK here
It's a bias, an in-bubble illiteracy effect, concerning the perception and analysis of realities (e. g. experiences) outside that bubble, mirroring an in-group's projections about an out-group. It is, in my decades of experience, a very common phenomenon in the IT sector.
> "My Dad doesn’t have one, he has zero-to-no trouble going to the bank and paying his bills and just about every other imaginable thing."
So far, that holds true for me as well (Germany).
> "If there was something he could not do and there were repercussions for it he’d be calling an attorney to rectify the situation."
The crux: the increasing friction brought on by rising technological entry barriers. In Germany you have at least the non-exclusion principle of Teilhabe (lit.: participation) which gives certain guarantees. But such achievements of democracy are continually under fire.
I (also German) have the impression that people who work in the IT sector are often much more critical of surveillance methods (including smartphones) than the average citizen.
Practically, you need a smartphone. Engaging an attorney != practical
In some countries people are willing to fight much harder against being coerced to have to use a smartphone. The message should thus rather be: follow their example.
As long as some younger people stay that course we should be fine. Hopefully we’ll see an increase of dumb phone adoption in a growing cohort younger adults. But the FUD spread in threads like this actually spreads misinformation and makes that less likely to happen
It’s like complaining that it’s difficult to travel to another continent if you don’t want to fly. I want to go from LA to Paris in 12 hours without getting on a plane!
Both because a dwindling minority of people do old things the old way; and because new things (eg Netflix and Uber) are designed for the new way, even if they don't absolutely require it.
I wouldn't say so: when I go to the bank, I often combine it with grocery shopping, which I have to do anyway. So doing banking the old way is hardly an inconvenience.
No government service can depend on having a product from a private corporation.
No QR-code-only restaurants that i have seen, and i would walk out without a word if that happened (even if i had a device that can do that). Bank does 2FAs second part with an SMS, first part is username, password and an otp code from a paper. Bank login is also a very common way of logging into governmental systems, but those only use the username, password and otp code, skipping the SMS, alternatively i could use an id card with a reader, state provides even Linux software for that.
The housing companys winter car engine heating sockets operate with an app, or alternatively just opening the lid and setting the timer yourself.
Additional data point: my dad, when he was still alive (-2025), had a smartphone but wouldn't use apps beyond facebook, did his banking by mailing in signed bills or at the bank in person, without an appointment.
Have some self respect. Don’t date people who aren’t mostly aligned with your values.
Your experience sounds interesting but I can't infer what this sentence means.
It is not necessary to use cash anywhere because cards can be used really everywhere.
But if you don't want to use cards, it's still possible to avoid it for weeks in row. You can pay cash at most brick and mortar places and by bank transfer at most online sites.