Let's talk about EU Sovereignty (2025)(musings.martyn.berlin) |
Let's talk about EU Sovereignty (2025)(musings.martyn.berlin) |
Ah yes, EU Sovereignty when a post makes it to the HN front page.
I would argue that these aren't even "cloud providers", they are just VPS providers. Which is fine, but it's not the same thing.
There really isn't any European "cloud" service at all, which is a huge part of the problem. And I doubt there ever will be because who would even build it?
It would cost billions and billions of euros just to be "not AWS" (but worse in every way except location). Who is investing in that?
Are we really bringing back this debate from 10 or may be 15 years when we started? Is Digital Ocean, Linode not a cloud provider. They were the VPS provider at the time.
I think in the end I agree with one of the argument, as long as these VPS providers give you a VPS that is charged per hour or per seconds, then they are cloud. Which ultimately is a server that is easily scaled up or down and charged on a time usage basis, when VPS at the time were a fixed monthly price.
The offer really has moved, and people are taking it seriously.
Also: not worst in every dimension at all. For instance, you actually get serious support, no matter your size, a much better version of what premium accounts give you at AWS/GCP etc.
I'll take the cleaner approach with predictable billing offered by the EU providers. Even if it means using my brain to RTFM and edit a couple of config files (which can then be rolled into automation via images or Ansible or whatever).
Maybe it’s the best approach? Maybe it’s more profitable and European companies want to grow their business?
Big companies that see the opportunity to be "Not AWS"?
A VPS provider who wants to grow their marketshare?
Nation states?
Not saying it'll be a small effort, but if the US continues to wield national laws to coerce American companies to negatively affect European citizens, it's possible.
Clouds give you software-definable load balancers, networking, clustering, integrated systemwide security, and a boatload of managed services like message queues, databases, AI training and inference, etc. etc.
No-one sane implements all that using a collection of VPSes, because of a simple principle of business: it's more profitable to focus investment on your core competencies, and for almost all companies, managing a non-trivial computing infrastructure is decidedly not a core competency.
It’s painful being a non-EU person working here, and hearing people wax lyrical about sovereign EU cloud without an actual product or product plan.
And once a product is anctua shipped and offered it is like already 5 years behind what US clouds are offering.
It’s embarrassing really
Lidl! https://horovits.medium.com/lidl-is-taking-on-aws-the-age-of...
My money would be on the French.
Sure France would spend the money. We’d see none of the results.
Would you also support free movement of all the valuables in your bank vault?
I just came to Netherlands for a short visit and oh my god how much better the food is (comparing to Canada mostly).
Please, please stay sovereign.
I really don't want to know what the food is like where you came from, but it may be a WMD test or something. You should get human rights activists and lawyers working on it.
Unfortunately, it's realty hard. The US giants have offerings that no one in EU has and I am investing huge amounts of time into working around them (e.g. Windows and MacOS CI runners on Github - try to get this for free in EU). I'm fine with paying a bit for this, but even then it's a huge hassle to set it up to be able to get CI checks for my projects on Windows/MacOS. And it's not cheap either. I can afford it, but it is still very expensive.
And therein lies the problem. As long as people are unwilling to pay for services, the winning services will always be the most predatory ones that make their money by selling their users to other companies.
You can’t vote in American elections, true, but you also can’t vote for the Ayatollah or Saudi Prince who controls your oil supply, the Brazilian president where your rubber comes from, or a Chinese Communist Party official who manufactures your stuff, nor do you vote for elections in other EU countries and I’d argue your EU vote is but an abstract concept of a vote.
You’ve never had control (no country fully does), and so, are you only now waking up to that fact and have been goaded out of a once peaceful slumber? If so you should probably thank Donald Trump, sadly enough. But I’d stop focusing on him when the US is by far the least of Europe’s collective concerns.
Travel bans, visa/mastercard, debanking, the whole nine yards.
Obviously the true political point is the geopolitical security risk of depending on another country. There's some truth there but really all countries depend on all others and the way to balance it is to use and grow the trading leverage you do have, not trying to shore up your weaknesses.
_e.g._ Victor Orban could have wiretapped any communication within the EU. Supporter by an EU directive
Don't spread such bullshit FUD.
The E‑Evidence package contains multiple legal and procedural safeguards:
1. Judicial authorisation
2. Scope limits
3. Proportionality and necessity tests
4. Channels for challenge and review
5. Data-protection rules
6. Natinoal enforcements and remedies
The Regulation defines what can be optained and when. And wiretapping (i.e. content and traffic) is striclty limited to serious offences. Blanket mass surveillance is EXPLICITLY NOT POSSIBLE.
A judge is required for sensitive categories, e.g. wiretapping. And factual grounds must be provided demonstrating necessity.
The Regulation EXPLICITLY requires that orders be necessary and proportionate for criminal investigation
The member state where the service provider (or its EU representative) is established is notified when an EPO/EPO‑PR is sent, giving an additional oversight channel and the enforcing authority a role in examining objections.
The CJEU remains a backstop on top of national authorities.
Now, database replication, not having to waste time to run/maintain clusters (be it Kubernetes or Elastic stack or something else), that I believe is well worth the money to offload to someone else, but even there you can get a much cheaper deal with someone that's not one of the three big cloud providers. I will also concede that Firebase is genuinely nicer to work with than its alternatives (Supabase very much included).