Xsnow "protestware" in Debian(lwn.net) |
Xsnow "protestware" in Debian(lwn.net) |
"But what if it was the US doing the invading?" Yes, even then. If some Iraqi author made an Xsnow that waved little Iraq flags, that's their right. Even if I disagree, it doesn't harm me, and it might inspire me to consider our actions.
"But what if it makes someone's boss get mad at them?" If my boss saw an Iraq flag on my screensaver, I'd say "huh, look at that! I guess that was added in the new version. I'll change it to another screensaver." And if you live in a country there the likely reaction is that your boss might execute you, your government are the baddies.
> Debian contributor "NoisyCoil" said that they had wanted to argue in favor of keeping the packages, but after looking at the content they had decided against it:
> > I went peeking at the package and, unless I'm completely missing something, the second offensive Italian fortune says that women's "no"s should be interpreted as "yes", while the third one explicitly calls for violence on women [1]. Like, it literally says women should be beaten on a regular basis. I'm afraid I can't help you here, sorry.
from https://lwn.net/Articles/1031750/, linked in the fine article
I did not invade any country
At least this app just displays the flags and not prints such accusations
It would be fine if you gave me a beautiful and whimsical way to choose to express my feelings, and I took it. But when you're disguising the flag in code as an "EXTRATREE," that signals to me that you're trying to slip through a surprise without my noticing:
#ifdef USE_EXTRATREE
if (global.Language && !strcmp(global.Language,"ru") && drand48() < 0.3)
tt = MAXTREETYPE;
if (drand48() < 0.02)
tt = MAXTREETYPE;
#endif
I'm reminded of a situation I encountered some years ago where a person opened a web browser in front of a classroom—no porn in their history, nothing untoward, just going to a high-profile mainstream news site or something in service of a classroom discussion—and all the targeted ads were for things like HIV medicines and mainstream campaigns choosing ad variants that depicted gay couples.
Not the time or the place, that person didn't ask for it, and it led to deep consequences for them—from "outing" on one side, to accusations of "grooming that classroom full of students" and "probably being riddled with AIDS" on the other—that this good, responsible, kind, wise person did nothing to invite.
The targeters probably thought they were doing something righteous or even "accepting" by "making sexual minorities feel seen" or something—but by putting words in the person's mouth without their consent or agency, they caused great unnecessary harm to somebody who didn't deserve it.
That out of the way, I can't and won't sanitize my words so that they're perfectly inoffensive all the world around. I've made comments over the years critical of a great many governments. If the fragile leadership of those countries saw my words on a screen there, perhaps they'd get angry at the person reading my writings. I do feel bad for that person and certainly didn't try to get them in trouble. But neither am I going to not criticize a government that's behaving poorly — even my own — for the sake of a hypothetical situation that may never even exist.
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.do you really want to support country that kidnaps its citizens off the streets and honorary reburied Nazi criminals?
" People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is¹; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a beating from one of many "war heroes" that walk around the cities these days.
No, the government sector doesn't just make missiles and bombs, it also covers schools, hospitals, many other things."
> Russ Allbery agreed that the DFSG was not relevant; he also warned that citing the Social Contract and DFSG ""turns the conversation into rules lawyering without addressing the actual issue"". However, even though xsnow is DFSG-compliant, he did say that the flag display may be something Debian does not want in its archives:
> > I would, in general, say that software that behaves in deceptive ways, which includes hidden behavior changes based on usernames, locales, or other local settings or information that no user would reasonably expect to change behavior in this way is probably not something that we want to have in Debian. It's a very slippery slope and also likely to create a lot of drama to very little benefit.
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48734373
Further LWN commentary (as observed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48736518) is that the result would not be solely drama but potentially some fairly nasty real world consequences for some people.
Then there's the question of singling out some subset of Debian users based on their country, for different behavior they presumably don't want and that is against their individual interests (see the other comment, about displaying a flag getting you beaten).
The solution is to treat everyone fairly and honestly, and to set an example for how people can get along. Imagine Debian is an international space station: the astronauts will help each other, not bicker and backstab. There are other venues for conflicts.
I really don't care about this package or protest but what might be more interesting to consider is what if this were in a default package and what if the affected locales were different?
If I make a list of all the countries who have recently been at war or are currently engaged in hostilities or have ethnic animus towards each other and just choose to taunt them all, that would really be a dick move and it's probably OK for Debian to drop the package. FWIW I'd rather see them adopt a kindhearted fork than override an author/ maintainer when possible.
If there's no special pleading for the ru/ua conflict then it's not too concerning.
I don't use Linux or Xsnow but it baffles me how distributions would allow something like this. Sure, it's just flags now, but if you look at faker and colors.js, you'll see the other side of the coin of what happens when you allow software like this.
I believe upstream is here, and has the same code as quoted:
https://sourceforge.net/p/xsnow/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/xsnow/src/scenery.c#l332
if (global.Language && !strcmp(global.Language,"ru") && drand48() < 0.3)
tt = MAXTREETYPE;Shit like this erodes trust.
Discrimination implies something harmful. Like invading neighbor country and perpetrating genocide. This complaint says more about Ivanov than anything else.
Is that really so much to ask for?
So, if you're in a location where displaying the Ukraine flag will get you shot, 1) it was already not safe to run xsnow, and 2) much more importantly, I genuinely hope you can successfully escape your situation.
As if it's so fucking easy to denounce a dictator who has murderous tendencies and who rules your homeland, as if it's so easy to insult him, and then what, not be able to return home and see your friends and family until that dictator is defeated?
I found those demands so unthinkingly heartless, it's responding to tyranny with your own tyranny...
Молчание - знак согласия
The idea that some govt employee would get fired for this is extremely far fetched.
Will anyone think of the poor Russians just trying to go on with their lives?
Do people in Russia realize how bad the situation is on the ground for Ukrainians?
>No, the government sector doesn't just make missiles and bombs, it also covers schools, hospitals, many other things.
Schools forming future soldiers, hospitals healing soldiers so that they can go back to the front...
The naivety here is astounding. The commenter, those who agree with him and all "normal" Russians would benefit to read Hannah Arendt:
https://philosophybreak.com/articles/hannah-arendt-on-standi...
Cue the famous quote...
I do not own any popular software to put anti Zed/Putin shit in it so sorry I can inconvinience those super rare good Russians.
I don’t know much about Iran, but depictions of women seem common in advertising there.
> People in Western countries don't realize how bad the situation on the ground actually is; random Ukrainian flags showing up on your work monitor can result in severe problems for you (like losing you job, or worse), especially if you work in the government sector. If they show up on your laptop in a random cafe or an airport, you might very well get a beating from one of many "war heroes" that walk around the cities these days.
[EDIT: I see @krunck reposted this at the top level — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48736518]
And yes, it is their, not their government, not some mysterious leaders. Russians reelected same government for 35 years with it invading neighbours pretty much every 5 years.
My family speaks both Ukrainian and Russian, and in Russian speaking spaces here in California we find many many many eager supporters of Ukraine's sovereignty, because when they hear Ukrainian spoken they tell us! And also tell us they wish they had been able to keep their non-Russian family language alive too. Most of these supporters are not from the Moscow or St. Petersburg areas though...
I wouldn't get bent out of shape if Xsnow showed me a Canadian/Greenlandic flag in response to me using en-us.
NosiyCoil forgot to mention that I removed hundreds of fortunes containing racist/sexist jokes from the regular section, installed by default to every Italian user and displayed by default.
I basically grew up reading them and 20 years later, I forked fortunes-it to get rid of them and put them in the offensive section. And then Cater unilaterally decided to remove it.
But neither NoisyCoil, nor Cater, not anyone else stepped up to actually read the fortunes that were not tagged as offensive and were being installed and displayed by default.
One year later, I'm still the only person doing this work.
Archlinux is still using the pre-fork version where this content is still present in the main section.
That article is very one sided. The author spoke to Cater but did not think of reaching out to me for comments.
An other example of political message is when projects redirect donations to a cause. Should projects be banned from having a "donate to Ukraine" somewhere in a program, maybe with a Ukraine flag next to it?
So it's "selective degradation of functionality" based entirely on your assumptions regarding the motivations of the users? How is this a useful description?
And America is electing more and more anti-israel politicians.
https://www.axios.com/2026/06/28/republican-party-israel-net...
https://www.axios.com/2026/04/15/iran-war-israel-democrats-c...
https://nestcentre.org/what-russians-think-about-the-war-aga...
> For most ordinary Russians, the war is not a central concern. This may sound cynical, but it’s the truth.
> When they do think about it, they tend to view it much like the weather: something that one may or may not like, but which lies beyond individual control and to which one simply adapts.
I admire a friend of mine in London who every weekend went to anti-genocide rallies in London. But at the same time I can imagine it's excruciating work, yelling and protesting and not saving any single Palestinian child's life. Meanwhile in Russia, protesting will get you arrested and probably be sent to the frontline (as a man) or prison (as a woman). Given those choices, would you also not say "Well, I can be angry and depressed about the Ukranians (and my fellow countrymen forced to fight the war) being killed, or I can just go about my day and put this exhausting thought aside"...
Meanwhile in America, there's a political party using the Nazi playbook to subvert democracy and succeeding. Are you American? Are you doing everything to stop that, or do you see yourself powerless and so you go about your day and put that exhausting thought aside?
Eh, you'd be wrong. It's a different issue in the US, half the population believe and vote for nonsense, the other half are strongly against it.
> What proof do you have, or do you "just know it"?
Friends with Russians, and try to read useful sources like Meduza. It's absolutely very much the case that most of that population are brainwashed and believe the state propaganda.
> Meanwhile in Russia, protesting will get you arrested and probably be sent to the frontline (as a man) or prison (as a woman).
Yes, so an armed uprising is necessary if voting is not an option. But if there is no will, there will be no effort.
> Meanwhile in America, there's a political party using the Nazi playbook to subvert democracy and succeeding.
America will still have elections, and we won't have to deal with our Putin-wannabe again after their term is up.
This is a corporate mindset we adopt because we want everyone's business not a useful or correct attitude for individuals who aren't the beneficiaries of the publics money in the first place.
The Russian aggression is evil, the Russian culture as a whole is abhorrent. We shouldn't be afraid to call it out and fight back. I would be ok if every Debian terminal printed a message raising donations for the defense of Ukraine.
Its free software so Russians worried about political correctness herein meaning defense of mass murder torture and genocide can run a fork which boots up to Russian military propaganda if they like.
We don't know? Debian doesn't spy on users.
Then we have to imagine they run xsnow all the time and somehow don't notice the dangerous political stuff OR run it for the first time.
If we start with 140M Russians this has certainly never happened and will almost certainly NEVER happen.
It is actually far more likely that someone should actually get caught using it trying to see the flags and have to explain that to their boss.
Funny thing how here we are talking about keeping it despite it can apparently cause people to die, while Debian was so quick to decide that the offensive fortunes that nobody had complained about for the past 23 years were incredibly harmful and had to be removed right away :D
Heh.. Russia has "elections" too.
So easy to point and jeer and say "they're bad, but over here the circumstances are different!"...
As if armed uprisings are child's play, and those not rising against tyrants are cowards. I bet if you were in Russia, you'd also made excuses why you haven't joined the resistance and learned how to make bombs and kill FSB soldiers. Fact is "the will" only comes with backs against the wall, like when food runs out (Arab uprising) or it's no longer tolerable (Iran). And then what will the revolution bring? Who's in charge in Iran, Libya, Egypt? It's easy to be an armchair revolutionary calling people cowards and brainwashed from 10000 miles away..
Addendum: and if a Russian has sympathy for the Ukranians but is powerless to do anything, wouldn't it be attractive to start believing the lie that it's the Ukranians that are assholes, that they're also doing bad things (just look at the average Israeli's support of the genocide - "it's because they want to annihilate us!"); if you start believing that stuff, you can "forgive" yourself not doing anything against your tyrannical government.