The Vespa at 80(cbc.ca) |
The Vespa at 80(cbc.ca) |
Same thing for old beetles and VW buses. Total smog creators.
Electric is where it's at.
Can the cool kids catch up?
However, for me, having lived in a country with a motorbike culture for the last decade, the coolest thing on two wheels is electric scooters. So much torque, range nearly equal to same sized gas scooters, and no pollution of the noise or smoke variety. It makes such a difference when everyone is zipping around on these quiet, non-stinking scooters. That's cool. Now it just needs someone to make an electric scooter design as iconic as a Vespa.
Electric Vespa anyone?
https://storeusa.vespa.com/elettrica/vespa-elettrica-45-mph....
Electric is damn quiet, damn smooth, and damn fast. (And damn comfy.)
And that can be a problem. Especially in a city like, say, Vienna, where people just do not check before they cross some of these little cosy streets.
I became a much more alert and guarding rider when I switched from Vespa.
Maybe that's a good thing, I dunno, but I am gonna put a whistle on my helmet some day soon, I swear ..
Yes, you're supposed to be the one checking that you don't hit pedestrians. Cities are for humans first, machines second. Drive slower. If you want to drive fast, take a road trip.
And not just that: Street's full of smombies, already keeping in mind that the situation awareness of the average pedestrian is a joke to begin with.
Also... mopeds and scooters are not a problem here in big-city Europe, they blend virtually completely into the vehicle hum, with two notable outliers: a) asshole mods, and b) the odd classic, two-stroke sewing machine. But even then, there's many other vehicles much louder than scooters. In the countryside they might be more of burden, for obvious reasons.
I have a 150 4-stroke that is fuel injected and it’s way quieter than any motorcycle and has very little exhaust smell
In town, filtering, weaving through traffic, getting to the front at lights etc., being able to make a sound which is so ubiquitously embedded in culture that it's instantly recognisable, and so easily localised, really makes a difference. It might be audible, but it's still quieter than many bigger bikes that people ride around town on, and less obnoxious. I guess I'm not the only one who feels that way, as I get a ton of smiles and so many people make an effort to move out of my way - much more so than other bikes I see on the road.
I've been super excited for electric motorbikes for years. I nearly bought a Zero FXS/FXE during covid, and then for the last year or two i've been looking hard at a BMW CE04. But they’d change how I ride, and I’d be more hesitant using them around town simply because being almost inaudible makes me nervous in UK traffic. In saying that, I'd be a lot more comfortable riding around places with a decent cycling culture like Cambridge, where people are used to looking around for smaller quieter vehicles, so I guess this too will change over time. E-bikes are great, but there the problem isn't the ride, it's the theft/security/insurance aspects.
So yeah, I guess until a few of these things change, my buzzy Vespa, with its awesome clutch and gears and crappy little drum brake on the front, will continue to be my go-to.
Fast forward and everyone is driving nearly silent electric vehicles. I wouldn’t want loud Vespas then. Cutting city noise pollution is one of the benefits of electric vehicles.
It is very smelly as well as it’s a two stroke engine, but I don’t mind that at all. Quite the opposite
He has to re-weld the frame from time to time due to the cracks that form.
Also, the range is pretty good. About 160 miles on a full tank, which no electric motorcycle or scooter I've tried can match. Drive it carefully and you can extend that range to probably 180 miles. You'll be lucky to get 80-100 miles out of an electrical motorcycle.
As for torque, sure the smaller Vespas could use more torque, but the 300cc has more than you will ever need in a city. And to be frank, it doesn't do too badly on longer trips either. It is certainly more comfortable than my Ducati.
Update: As for "modern". Note that my 300cc Vespa is about 10 years old now. So it isn't all that new either.
I used to ride Honda CBR500R as my primary commute vehicle for a few years in Seattle. And while the rumble of the engine was not at the chainsaw-levels of annoying, it still sucked, it still emitted smoke, and I still had to wear ear protection. Which I would need to wear even on an electric motorcycle as well, to be fair, given that I took highway (and the wind noise at speeds above 60mph absolutely hurts hearing; after catching myself speaking way too loud after a ride a couple of times, I just invested into ear protection).
But even at low speeds, the engine noise was imo annoying for pedestrians. And, mind you, I ran it with a stock exhaust. I absolutely despise people who install extra-loud (illegal) aftermarket exhausts on purpose, because they know that nobody is gonna enforce it.
Electric is kinda solving all those problems. Just yesterday, I was walking outside in NYC, and an Amazon delivery van (manufactured by Rivian) was passing by. It was such a relief, because I initially saw a big van approaching and braced for noise and smoke. Beautifully enough, none of those concerns actually materialized, and it was just a fast/quiet/smokeless van.
I am not some radical pro-EV-at-all-costs person, but I would be lying if I said that EVs of all kinds don't bring tons of immediate benefits to me, even as an outside observer who doesn't currently. No noise + no smoke + lots of torque already makes the outside way nicer for passerbys. And it is way more fun for an operator of those too (I happily drove an EV car before for multiple years, until I moved to NYC and stopped driving).
Having followed a similar path, the lifestyle upgrade of moving to an EV, then abandoning car dependant commuting use is great.
In the pouring rain and howling wind I do occasionally wonder what I’m doing, but sitting in a traffic jam is awful.
> And, mind you, I ran it with a stock exhaust. I absolutely despise people who install extra-loud (illegal) aftermarket exhausts on purpose, because they know that nobody is gonna enforce it.
Add to this: car stereos and the craze for adding (stolen) school PA speakers for playing obnoxiously loud music.
I've had a 300cc Vespa GTS for a decade now (alongside a few motorcycles) and the thing that is the most striking about it is how relaxing it is to drive. Despite being somewhat heavy, they are very manoeuvrable due to the low center of gravity. The suspension is very good and despite the roads here being awful it just glides over any bumps and smooths them out. The 300cc engine is fairly quiet and provides more torque than you need. When the lights turn green you'll be over the intersection before the motorcyclists have had time to release the clutch and get going.
It does well on the open road too. It isn't a race machine, but it'll do 120km/h (75 mph) which is good enough. And you won't feel stiff and bent when you arrive if you decide to take it on a 6 hour ride.
I didn't get it for the looks/style. Yes, I did think it was a bit of a gimmick. And then I tried it. I thought I was doing 60/kmh when I was doing 80km/h. And it just glided over bumps.
(And yes, I have a motorcycle as well, but I'm European so it means I don't ride a motorcycle to get into road rage incidents. We actually try to get along here)
Split traffic on the way to the farmers market while getting waves from random people? Easy.
80mph up a hill on the way to the park? Also yes.
Ride through the park to set up a picnic? Not only yes but it literally has a built in cooler.
Just a total zero compromise vehicle.
And you can buy one for what five grand? All other motorcycles (which I have many of) are stupid.
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/thread-repair-inserts/thre...
https://www.inmoto.it/news/curiosita/2025/08/14-8327674/pava...
The funniest version is the presidential one gifted to the president of the republic in 2008 https://www.museopiaggio.it/it/collezioni/2-piaggio/57-ape-c...
while vespas came earlier and had the advantage of interchangeably calling scooters "vespas". however, did not figure out that they both shared the same parent company.
I'm surprised that the article didn't mention the role Vespa (and Lambretta) played in the British Mod scene.
You can see it's influence in the RAF roundel stickers on bikes in the article.
For anyone interested Quadrophenia is still a fun introduction:
https://www.amazon.com/Kilt-Happened-Person-Called-Skirt/dp/...
But you're not wrong. I haven't rode and actual Vespa, but have been on a Yamaha Vino YJ50 in my full montie gallus kilt, frae bunnet tae brogues.
The bars look like an 80s bmx.
https://cdn.pixabay.com/photo/2021/12/27/23/50/motorcycle-68...
A modern 300cc four stroke Vespa will use 3.3 litres of fuel per 100km and Euro 5 means noise is quiet.
As far as things go, modern scooters are great, practical, economical vehicles.
But, yeah, they don't smell like the old ones thankfully
Uh, I know motorcycle engines aren't particularly fuel-efficient (it's not a priority), but there seems to be, er, room for improvement.
Completely alarming and rather dangerous to all around him.
Another friend of mine --the reason we all had Vespa back then-- could disassemble and reassemble them with his eyes closed, including the engine.
We'd go to flea markets and garage sales around the country looking for Vespa, Lambrettas and even french Solex for sale. Best find was not a Vespa though but a real Honda Monkey Z50.
One day I forgot to put oil in a Vespa and the engine just froze: cylinder expanded in the piston and rear-wheel locked in place. Somehow I didn't crash. I put oil (you typically had oil with you, in a tiny trunk), waited for the thing to cool down: it just started back up (!).
These were the days, thanks for posting that on HN.
P.S: it's really sad we cannot have nice things posted without having the majority of comments being from environmental-jihadists : (
Not to break your wishful thinking filled bubble, but those are very clearly not "will somebody please think about the environment" type comments. Plenty of people simply fucking despise the ever living shit out of this class of vehicle, just in general.
You really don't need to give two hot shits about the environment to find scooters obnoxiously loud smoke factories, to have a problem with that, and to be absolutely fucking over them as a result. Delivery drivers made sure of that in the past years. I'm sure it's much more convenient for you to just file it under your favorite political grift, but I assure you with confidence, the hate on these is entirely self-interested and genuine.
I’ve never before considered altruistic hate versus self interested hate.
I’ve a foot in both camps over scooter noise and fumes, but do love a good Vespa.
Probably the main regret to WFH is not using my Vespa anymore as I did when I was going everyday in the office.
Now I want one!
https://lambrettauk.co.uk/post/rockers-vs-mods-a-short-histo...
Style?
https://www.vespa.com/it_IT/modelli/sprint/sprint-s-elettric...
My parents have a newer 50cc and even at full speed it doesn’t make more noise than any car.
I had an old p200e 2-stroke Vespa and it was indeed smoky and loud. And also way more fun and useful.
And I live in a place where BMW sent two engineers and a test car to verify that, indeed, the roads here rattle cars to bits. They were not getting ripped off by people pretending their beemers broke.
I suspect that other brands of electric motorbike may be better
Even when I am in pedestrian mode I find myself cursing those smaller electric moped riders who qualify to ride the bike lane (my bikes are only for the roads) and zoom around like they own the bike lane. I sure do love giving them a lesson when I’m on my bigger bike though. Nothing more satisfying than shouting OIDA at some dufus who almost killed themselves in the bike lane.
In any case, electric riders do have more responsibility. It comes with the comfort.
Well yeah but they're another league of recklessness. Especially the food delivery people.
I was talking more about an average bicycle commuter.
Heartwrenching that OP has a hard-on against environmentalism and feels/is victimized by its proponents on the regular, but it's super not what people were yapping about, isn't at all required for the positions purported, and this really couldn't have been any clearer. Asserting otherwise is intellectually insulting.
I could even sympathize with not wanting to read scooter hate every time scooters come up, which I can definitely imagine to be a phenomenon, but then I would also appreciate not having to read people randomly soapboxing and projecting broad scale political alignments, so that's kind of a 1:1 unfortunately.
Yamaha’s blue core engine used in its mid sized 300cc scooters can do 2.8L per 100km. It’s 125 engines can do 1.8L per 100km.
They’re incredibly efficient little vehicles
So far electric scooters can only compete in inner city with the equivalent power of a small 125 and limited range/speed due to size/weight constraints
I keep thinking I should upgrade my honk to make it beefier (although honk usage can get you a traffic ticket in Vienna), but I want to experiment with the helmet whistle a bit more, just to see if its effective ..
Anyway, don't most places legally require nearly silent electric vehicles to emit some kind of artificial noise?
People who sleep with the windows opened in summer at night(most Europeans) facing the street where vespas are driving would beg to differ.
Then there's the separate issue that some(many?) owners either rev their vespas for more power(maybe due to worn belt) or they just fuck with their exhaust to squeeze more power at the expense of noise.
Either way, there's plenty of good reasons people find mopeds/scooter overall far more noisy and annoying than cars.
It is not at all noisy unless I rev it high, which I try to avoid doing most of the time. It is not loud like for instance a Yamaha T-Max, not helped by it attracting mostly complete retards.
Obviously there are always dumb people mounting akrapovic or other noisy aftermarket exhausts on any bike brand but it is also the same with cars.
The Piaggio Vespa is a scooter. The Piaggio Ciao is a moped.
Or those that love "tuning" taking the noise filters out of the escapes.
Also lets ignore drilling the planet for rare minerals in the process, that China owns.
Pedestrians are *also* subject to right-of-way rules, just like everyone else on the road. Many examples of people running between parked/stopped cars and getting smoked when they hit an open lane with a vehicle they did not expect to be there.
Not the driver's fault.
If you're going fast enough in an area where someone could step out, and someone does step out, if you hit them then you were clearly going too fast.
It would be interesting to see what an intentionally and well designed city could look like. I’d probably have a walkable city center, no cars, and maybe scooters could be allowed but required to have some automatic wireless-controlled limiter that keeps them below 10mph or something.
My neighborhood, which borders one of the ancient entryways into the city (Mariahilferstrasse), is converting to pedestrian-priority streets, chopping off lanes and turning them into an extension of the main Mariahilferstrasse walking street, is an example of just what you describe. It is being laid out with rest stops and trees, and water springs, and so on - and it is delightful, true, to have such conveniences as bike-only lanes. However, they are being exploited by the delivery classes whose mini-me mopeds, limited to 25km/h, are considered ‘bicycles’ for the purposes of the bike lanes. Too many times I’ve seen clueless tourists (mostly Americans) who have no idea what those bike lanes are for, stepping into them, only to narrowly escape death or dismemberment at the hands of the delivery guy, exploiting the lane.
My class bike can only ride on the road, so it’s only in the quieter streets I have to be super-alert .. but man, those guys in the bike lanes are nonsense.
Two people who actually live the same experience may have different opinions on "right" and "wrong", and the law may differ from those opinions.
But man, assuming bad faith on the part of others is a hell of a way to go through life.
The point is, people in cities have become accustomed to using noise as their first sense, and vision much later. Sometimes far too late. And if I hadn’t been driving extremely defensively, as always, I would definitely have hit many, many stupid pedestrians with very little self-preservation sensibility.
If you’re a pedestrian, look both ways before you cross the road. Duh.
As an electric rider I take extra responsibility for my stealth. It is a blessing and a curse. But I’ll get a whistle for some of the quieter alleys .. people really are pretty uninitelligent when it comes to some streets.
Have you ever "shipped" something that at no point in its journey was carried on a floating vessel? Do you correct people when they say they're shipping something by ground or air?
Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux!
And the noise pollition I hear coming from the electric to me is a million times worse than ICEs.
-- the additional alarms you mention;
-- the noise from the engine (according to the assessment of mates, it should be that): it whines;
-- the additional noise made to increase their "presence" which is typically an unnatural synth chord.
All of that is absolutely unbearable to us.
Is this some kind of trolling?
>>accessible (we do not have electronic money).
And is this some kind of joke? An electric scooter can be plugged into a solar panel and recharged within a day. For free. Even if every oil refinery on earth explodes you will be able to charge your electric scooter by the wonderful power of the sun.
Unless you mean the cost to purchase - have you seen the cost of a new Vespa? You can have two electric scooters for the price of a new Vespa.
And electric scooters have long ago matched needs of city users in terms of range. Recharge time isn't as fast as petrol, sure, but people tend not to drive scooters for 500 miles in a day. You drive it to work, drive it back, plug it in. Or charge during the day using solar.
Or you know, for really crazy sci-fi ideas just look at china, where electric scooters with swappable batteries are extremely common. Even if you work as a food delivery driver you can have a fresh fully charged battery in less time than it would take you to fill up with petrol.
No, perfectly serious. If your question is because you thought I meant noise levels - no, I meant noise quality. E.g. a good insulated ICE has a pleasant noise. On the contrary, the sane people I know physically panic in front of the strident cacophony and asylum level beeps that the new vehicles are bringing.
> An electric scooter can be plugged into a solar panel and recharged within a day. For free
Well, that is also not always satisfiable. But it's an idea: if you remain nearby, you could plug the solar panel in - and, with some structure, also get your shade. (Panel-as-umbrella. I am serious. Shade is not granted everywhere.)
But - still very serious - we know that research to make electric vehicle recharge through solar panels failed (not enough miles collected in a reasonable time): if the electric scooters are so efficient (in terms of miles/charge), would not it be a good idea to have them continuously under some solar power connection? Maybe "barrel roof" models - the roof as a solar panel stripe.
Anyway: as noted in the other replies, that recharge for electric vehicles passes through electronic money when you are far from your own outlets is a problem.
What are you talking about? The electric ones are significantly quieter.
It is not a matter of decibels. It is a matter of nerves impact.
I wrote «the noise poll[u]tion I hear coming from the electric to me is a million times worse than ICEs». Pollution. It has many dimensions - "loud" is just one.
"Cheap" makes no sense here - you may have misunderstood the post. Whether charging costs 1 penny or 1 grand, it is still inaccessible if the plugs are automated totems not accepting cash.
You know this is a thread about scooters, right? If you live somewhere like Rome or even London all you hear is just very loud revving all day long, not least because teenagers who ride them tend to just rev them for no reason. But even a vespa is very loud compared to a petrol car. And again, electric scooters usually don't have any kind of artificial synthetic noise to make themselves known like cars do. So it you magically replaced all petrol scooters with electric ones the streets would get about 50x quieter.
>>would not it be a good idea to have them continuously under some solar power connection?
Maybe. Scooters have tiny electric batteries, usually no more than 1-2kWh. That much can be easily recharged in a day from even a small solar panel. But I suspect a scooter with a canopy wouldn't be accepted purely because it looks weird. But you can get foldable panels that fit in your backpack, leave it on the scooter when you park it and it will recharge to full while you work.
Fair point about mediating between generics and specifics, but I am not sure I have yet heard an electric scooter's noise - I was more focused on electric engines in general, and I suspected that there can be similarities with the cars.
Relevant: I only returned to the thread today as yesterday I had to leave just after my post, and I walked thinking "I really cannot remember a loud Vespa". Destiny served: minutes later one passed by - admittedly much too loud. But I am not fully convinced somebody did not do something to it (the noise may have not been the out-of-the-factory one).
But you wrote «it's just common sense» and I am fully skeptical and wary about what could happen with the tech implementations. 'Cause also in real time, as I am typing, a Lexus (I think) passed by and even if the noise is low, its texture was sufficient to have me break the typing and go look at the perpetrator. Would common sense be something granted, electric vehicles would be planned as a nice solution - instead of torture with drawbacks, as we see it.
And: ok, urban context, but still: how do you charge them - suppose you live in a flat? What if solar is not sufficient?
And what if, still speaking of horrific implementation, with the current craze, they build "smartphones with two wheels"? Would we still be able to find "proper" (electric-based) ones, lean - say, without microphone GPS and tracking libraries?
You mention Rome: I had to notice that telephone conversations with people on public transport there are broken continuously by the bababababa of the doors alarms. Another perspective on urban noise and on common sense. The transformation of the landscape into the merge between mechanical factory and construction site is ongoing.
> leave it on the scooter when you park it
Well, that is part of the «that is also not always satisfiable» and «if you remain nearby» in my post. Your proposal (parking and leaving equipment there) could work in the Draconian Saudi Arabia, but not generically.
So at least for that one it kind of draws into question your overall conclusions here. You might be hearing an ICE and thinking it is electric, or some specific badly tuned vehicle or something.
The point about the "whining possibly-engine" comes from a chat with a friend, where I said that they had decided to really use the most annoying overlapped noises to make the cars audible: he replied, those are not the additional noises, but the "noises from the engine" (probably from the whole system). I don't know.
> silence is objective
The electrical and hybrid vehicles I witnessed are very far from silent (save for the bicycles - I can't assess them, too little experience). As expressed, to us those noises - running noises and operational noises - are annoying to a whole new level.
There's still some possibilities here: maybe you came across someone with a broken car and believed that to be representative.
Most other explanations here just involve some form of confusion on your part to be honest: that it was the backup-alert noise that it makes _because_ the car is otherwise too silent, that it wasn't actually a Leaf but an ICE engine that you saw, or something else.
The Nissan Leaf cars I experienced are not silent at all - it does not matter if it is the motor or another part of the system, or if it is the additional noise that was mandated legally because they were deemed too silent. Similarly, its Peugeot "twin" is "whaaa" whining, and so are the hybrid Jeep Renegade, and many others (as I was writing another reply nearby a Lexus) that had me turn in the street and address the drivers with impatience.
Is it possible instead that you have no noise sensitivity for that noise? Or maybe - that makes no sense but - if I pointed you to that noise you would be surprised that some find that a foreground in perception? Because it is really bewildering that you call those cars silent - they are the opposite. A large number of electric or hybrid cars produce a whining "whaaa", a sort of synth chord, loud with a filter-pass in an abominably annoying band. I think I even heard one with a fake ICE noise (an imitation), but still a coloured timbre (not a natural noise but a synth with a perceptible note) in that same band.
And the explanations you mention really make no sense: the beeps of the backup-alert noise - which we all know were mandated because the vehicles were supposed to be too quiet - are intermittent, whereas the whine is continuous.
(The vehicles were supposed to be too quiet, so they mandated extra noises. Some of them are guessed to be nerve wracking - which is also normal in societies that have lost their natural sense.)
But look: it is absolutely impossible that I can confuse an electric car noise with that of an ICE - and it is out of question that you can allege that.
Maybe ask other people whether they hear noise from electric or low-speed hybrid cars. Really, ask other people.
Edit: at this point I thought I could sample one - but I am sure they could be found on YouTube etc., there should be no need. ... I checked: it's full of them samples.
