Goodbye, and Thanks for All the Bikesheds(queue.acm.org) |
Goodbye, and Thanks for All the Bikesheds(queue.acm.org) |
He's been a strong privacy and FOSS advocate for decades and has more credibility on both of these topics than nearly anyone on this board.
He also has an account and comments frequently. phkamp. I suggest reading some of his comments before making judgment.
So many kneejerk and nuance-less opinions. Absolutely hilarious that people are thinking the guy who wrote MD5crypt and BSD Jails is anti-privacy.
Also eye opening watching how many people are getting frothing-at-the-mouth mad seeing somebody with that pedigree coming to different conclusions than they do.
There is nothing of substance here. You don't like AI, I get. But it still exists and pretending that no-one finds it useful is utterly foolish.
Edit: I overuse the word utterly. Nice to identify one of my tells.
Privacy is being abused by criminals to victimize people at scale. Just because privacy is a moral good doesn't mean you are morally off the hook for enabling criminals.
Governments are so aware of this they're passing sweeping laws against it. This is your new reality -- you can't just bury your head in the sand. The whole point was saying that there could have been a middle ground that protected more of your rights than where you're at now if it weren't for the absolutism.
Turns out that being an absolutist isn't helpful.
Parental controls remains the right way to do age gating. It works today and has no privacy impacts.
Almost all victimization is being done without end to end encryption. This is not a problem caused by privacy.
I don't think it's that encryption was harmful, it's that it wasn't enough, and in a sense I agree with TFA & the Sun Tzu bit: it needed to be complemented by legislation that added decent privacy protections, and it largely wasn't. That was a mistake, I suppose, but the current political situation, esp. in the USA, disfavors privacy regulation getting done, ever. The Democrats are … maybe spiritually for it? … but not terrible effectual at getting it done; Obama's response to Snowden was "meh" at best, and Congresspeople, in particular Feinstein especially, let the DNI walk all over her. The GOP has no interest at all in regulating corporations, at all, ever, so with the House/Senate/POTUS all (R) at the moment, it's going to be until at least Nov before it is possible to even think that these might get addressed, and even that's … generous, and I won't be holding my breath for it to occur.
Stuff like what we saw in another thread today — with LG wantonly installing spyware — and things like Flock would have happened in addition to network intercepts; they are not happening instead of. Corporations and the government will do whatever the People permit them to get away with.
His theory is bunk, there is absolutely no middle ground to be had with the people who want a backdoor. There are no small backdoors.
Also on Discord and Roblox, they are apparently the biggest platforms for this, but they're not E2EE anyway, they're just hiding it because their executives like what's happening.
If we had parental controls that actually worked it would forestall any talk about ID scanning because parents could just enable parental controls.
You know who didn't refuse to get involved? Larry Ellison, Peter Thiel, Mark Zuckerberg. They made suggestions to governments about how to solve this problem, and the best proposed solution was adopted and made the law.
Then legally require it to be effective and easy-to-use-if-you-take-a-few-minutes-to-read-the-instructions.
See also [0].
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2026/07/01/majority-...
https://x.com/PTBwrites/status/2031529878021923118
https://yougov.com/en-us/daily-results/20250502-1e408-1
https://yougov.com/en-us/daily-results/20250502-1e408-2
> Parental controls remains the right way to do age gating. It works today and has no privacy impacts.
This opinion is not grounded in data and facts. If this was true, we would not be here. But we’re here because parental controls are insufficient, the vast majority of parents are just hanging in there getting their kids to adulthood.
More than 3 million college students are raising kids. Most won’t graduate - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48709130 - June 2026
The real single-parent capital of America - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42867716 - January 2025 ("The places with the most single parents tend to be, to put it bluntly, struggling. The strongest predictors of single parenthood are high poverty rates and high shares of the population receiving government assistance." [There are ~13.6M single parents in the U.S. raising over 21M children. This means single parents head roughly one in three households and approximately 34% of all U.S. children live in a single-parent family.])
Parents Under Pressure: The U.S. Surgeon General's Advisory on the Mental Health & Well-Being of Parents - https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/parents-under-pressu... - 2024
> When stress is severe or prolonged, it can have a deleterious effect; 41% of parents say that most days they are so stressed they cannot function and 48% say that most days their stress is completely overwhelming compared to other adults (20% and 26%, respectively).
> Nearly 70% of parents say parenting is now more difficult than it was 20 years ago, with children’s use of technology and social media as the top two cited reasons.
> Recent data from 2021-2022 indicate that among parents, 23.9% (or 20.3 million) had any mental illness and 5.7% (or 4.8 million) of parents had a serious mental illness.
> Lastly, many other caregivers assume primary caregiving responsibility when parents cannot, thus acting as a critical safety net for children. In recent years, there has been a notable increase in such individuals taking on caregiving responsibilities for children, with approximately 2.4 million children being raised by grandparents, other relatives, or family friends, without their biological parent(s) in the household.
U.S. has world’s highest rate of children living in single-parent households - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37628812 - September 2023 (108 comments)
(fertility rates continue to collapse though, so hopefully this problem continues to decline over time, only time will tell; 40% of annual pregnancies in the US and internationally are unintended, per the Guttmacher Institute and the UN, respectively)
Charted: How American Households Have Changed Over Time (1960-2023) - https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-american-households-hav... ("A record 58.4% of American households now consist of married or single adults without children. Only 25.3% of American households contain children.")
It's a mix of what they can do and what they're likely to do. They just have to be able to go back to voters and say they're doing something.
If you think that the fact that they did the wrong thing is an argument for not doing anything, you clearly are blind to politics & history.
And age verification being the wrong solution to the "privacy problem" doesn't remove privacy from lawmakers' crosshairs.
There's apparently information that you didn't read contained in the footnote of the comment you replied to.
Based on this layman's reading of the law, [0] California did literally the opposite. They require major OS vendors to require users to enter their birthdate or indicate in some other way their current age, and then require programs and websites to act on that age information. This is entirely different from requiring major OS vendors to allow a "guardian account" to set fairly-fine-grained restrictions on one or more -er- "ward accounts", and then requiring programs and websites to refuse let the "ward account" do the things that those restrictions say that it isn't permitted to do.
"Restrict by age" neither accounts for precocious under-eighteens, nor does it account for vulnerable elderly or otherwise brain/developmentally-damaged adults who need protected. And because "restrict by age" cares very much about your age, and because it's not going to work nearly as well as promised by those pushing it, it will inevitably require scans of both a photo ID and one's face and/or other biometrics.
A "you don't need to know anything about this account other than that these are the things it's not supposed to be able to do" system gives zero shits about the identity of a person, so there's no plausible path for it to gate access behind submission of any identifying documents to any third party.
[0] <https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...>
* https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/lib/libcrypt/crypt.c?re...
* https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-src/commit/3b2b7f71deba2a...
I first came across it in 1995/1996: Wow, what a magical tool for backend web stuff! I used it for everything.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd%E2%80%93Rivest_algorithm
What qualifications does phk have that are relevant to the current subject?
Decisions that are reversible should just go with the instinctive answer of whoever volunteers to work on it.
I've been in many meeting rooms where, because of the number and caliber of people in the room, we've blown $5000 worth of combined salary arguing about basically nothing. I've been in a few where that number was well over $10k.
If you're going to assign a relatively medium talent engineer to solve a problem, it's cheaper to let them solve it twice, maybe even three times, than it is to try to figure out what the right solution is before touching a keyboard. It helps them grow to give them that autonomy, and more importantly training your team out of reflexively reaching for optimization for every single feature saves gobs of money over time.
The interface for a piece of code matters to everyone. The internal implementation details mostly matter to the bus number on that code. If they're happy with it, that matters a lot. That can be overridden by the consequences of that design, but I've seen a couple cases where the bus number for a module wanted a solution with fewer consequences but the group wisdom wanted something flashier but also more brittle.
Regulations for age restriction are understandable. A lot of modern technology is harming kids (and I don't mean dirty videos, social media seems to be much more harmful).
A sensible regulator would leave some responsibility to the parents, but require restrictions for consumer devices (smartphones, laptops). Maybe even enable age restrictions by default, block replacing the OS or the firmware, and only allow it once the age was confirmed.
I don't see a point of including all kind of OS or software into this regulation. Just the ones that are preinstalled on consumer devices, and commercially distributed to consumers. Once the age of the user was confirmed, the devices should be able to become as open as we know them now.
Do yourself a favor and read this, a few times, and take a moment to actually try and see what the author's getting at.
yeah - once regulators come into play - the private ecosystems take over. discord is already a precursor to this.
the era of mass public social networks will come to the end. next it will be just private networks of individuals. likely the won't interact.
how the dynamics play out - I don't know - but if you study history - you will know what behaviors will happen.
depends on the age but.. they've probably discovered all kinds of shit already or heard about it from others
I fail do imagine what kind of world is he implying.
There will never be a world populated by humans in which you do not need to have numerous talks with your children about the nature of humans, especially humans they do not know and cannot trust, and about the technology those other humans know how to use. Saying you are forced to do so on account of some particular new technology is like saying you are forced to provision food for yourself on account of this newfangled capitalist system... As if needing to provision food for oneself were not a state of affairs dating back to the dawn of cellular life. And as if the uglier parts of human nature emerge from the smartphone and do not in fact date back to the dawn of humanity as a species.
Demanding everyone on the Internet show their papers to the government so that the author can hand their teenage daughter a free, always-networked pocket computer plus microphone and video camera without having to think about any related risks is an attitude repugnant for its laziness, its entitlement, its delusion, and most of all its contempt for the freedoms of others.
> — Day 3-5. OK, there were a couple of solid bugs there, and a fair number of what were technically bugs, but not actually all that bad.
> — Week 2. I guess that was it?
There are a bunch of tools in the developer toolbox that some people never use, and the opposition use religiously. We are especially bad in this industry at turning things into a boolean where they should be a dial or a continuum. Something about that intro to Logic class either rots our brains or works as a filter to keep most of the philosophers out.
In sports there are drills one does a couple times a month instead of every day. You're trying to harden pathways in the brain to make certain reactions be more automatic, to correct subtle errors and suboptimal answers to problems. You don't do them all the time because they're expensive in some way, like time or danger.
I think this is an area where we miss a lot. I don't do TDD all the time. Maybe a week every couple of months. And it's a split between very hard tasks and very simple ones where I practice it. It's easier to work on first principles on a simple problem, but sometimes when you're stuck on a very difficult one, you have to go back to first principles anyway.
"Difficult" can be further broken down into several categories. 1) I don't know how to solve this, 2) the problem is straightforward but arduous and I don't know if I have the stamina for it, 3) I thought I solved it but it's not working.
TDD is a good way to get yourself into bottom up thinking and 'work the problem' by testing your assumptions one at a time. At the very least you have something to show for your work at the next standup even if the answer still eludes.
Similarly, a linter can be good while you're building up muscle memory for writing code the way the current team thinks it should be written. However, it can be a nightmare when you're trying to do exploratory development to fix a bug. I've landed PRs on two different FOSS projects to run the linter after the unit tests for this very reason. I don't fucking care if the code is Clean right now I only care if I've fixed the NPE that is crashing production. The PR is a problem for an hour from now. I need to make it work and then I can make it right.
Which model is this author talking about? Which pocket-sized devices? Where can I get them? No one is using Gemma 4 to find cybersecurity issues.
Edit: there are a lot of sentences that I can't distinguish from sarcasm in this article. I guess I read it too seriously.
> In comparison, tech sisters advocating for an absolute right to privacy seem to be a very rare, and maybe mythical, species.
Ever heard of Meredith Whittaker?
> We could have designed our protocols to be minimally compatible with “a nation of laws,” but the tech bros insisted that compromise was treason, and, as a result, we will lose more privacy than necessary.
This has to be a joke. There's private, and there's not private. There is nothing in between. This is not about tech bros. This is about guiding principles, about personal liberty, and about freedom from tyranny.
> It may not quite be a law of nature, but my personal guess is that the opportunities for anonymity on the Internet will shrink until mothers no longer are forced to have “the talk” when their daughters get their first mobile phone.
In addition to "the talk" guess what else they won't be forced (or allowed) to talk about? Political dissent.
This chunk of the article is both sexist and defeatist. Now to read the rest.
Also the fact they call it “age verification” when they clearly build an identity verification and we just accept their language is crazy.
Talking isn't doing, just like word generation isn't an outcome.
At least, this is what I have come up with because this blog is mostly incoherent blabbering.
TIL: Phil Zimmermann was a "tech bro" and had a time machine.
That’s why large tech companies are lobbying in favour of this!
> So, it is not obvious to me who will be training new iterations of these models once the current bubble explodes, in particular if the returns are diminishing the way I have experienced.
It looks like he has no clue on how market equilibriums work. He really seems to think LLM's will just like.. stop existing.
So in their world, people would suddenly realise that AI is actually not that economic and we can't have Opus 4.8 quality models just with updated knowledge cutoff perpetually. So in his future, things won't just stall, they will literally go back.
He's really putting his emotional weight on this particular kind of future.
Either that or he's making nebulous emotional claims - its his blog so he can do it.
Unfortunately, no, you can't have a prophilactic that just makes you a little bit pregnant. We used to know this.
Ah, the famous “maybe if I take a step back they’ll appreciate it and not push harder”. Or maybe it’s “if I give the leopard my face maybe it spares my body”.
I’ll let reality speak for itself: look no further than Stingrays and every bit of legal abuse they enabled, where innocent people are spied on in bulk with flimsy excuses. How well did it work out when the protocol was already maximally compatible with laws?
There’s no “minimally compatible”, you either have the privacy technically guaranteed or you don’t. If it’s technically allowed to breach it, it will soon be done as a matter of routine under the guise of “protecting”, “preventing”, and so on.
So in the end we didn’t lose anything, what we did was we gained a short period in which we could all taste that freedom. If we used your proposal nobody would have had even that to begin with.
This logic would have been easier to forgive if it came from youth and inexperience, from someone who never got to know about the endless abuse of surveillance that was inflicted indiscriminately on everyone.
> I promised myself I would never join their ranks.
A wasted opportunity, missed by at least 1 article :).
> In this last Bikeshed in acmqueue, I will ponder the far future of free and open source software (FOSS), hoping to upset so many readers that...
> During the past couple of decades, rampant neoliberalism and “globalism” allowed...
And I’m out. I guess congratulations to the author. Mission accomplished.
But I’m disappointed that the article took a turn towards partisan politics.
Except for shit like Stram Kurs, which nobody really supports or tolerates.
> During the past couple of decades, rampant neoliberalism and “globalism” allowed the U.S. tech industry to capture almost the entire European IT market, including all “social media.” This has recently proved to be a ghastly mistake, and now the EU, along with its member states and companies, are scrambling to claw back their digital sovereignty.
This is not a partisan political statement, it's a factual one. It is simply a statement of fact that neoliberal world markets have permitted hyperscalers to cross national boundaries and provide the same services at scale to governments worldwide, and like, without even going into any U.S. politics at the moment, isn't that... really weird? Like many EU governments had essentially put their ability to function as states in the hands of a foreign actor. That's WILD.
Oh, it’s not a slippery slope. It’s a single step: age verification IS identity verification, and it abolishes anonymous publishing on the internet, allowing on day one for violent retaliation against political speech.
If you think that authoritarian governments won’t be abusing this instantly, you are sorely ignorant of history.
The people pushing for the destruction of privacy and attested software integrity ARE the tech bros. I'm sure there are people here that will vehemently disagree with me, but we see the biggest tech companies pushing for age verification and we see founders and rich folk gleefully giving up their earlier pro-privacy stances in favor of supporting locking down identity. They're building up their moat in real time because not only does it let them kill that pesky FOSS, but also it means they can legally gather even more data from individuals in question.
It also goes hand-in-hand with the increasingly authoritarian bent a lot of those same people have taken and these resources will absolutely be used to crack down on minorities and things they don't like.
I think your head would have to be firmly planted deep underground to somehow not connect the two dots. As another poster here said, they're literally lobbying for these age verification laws because it benefits them.
HN existed 20 years ago...? /s
edit: yes it did, lol
And this wouldn't affect Linux or FOSS: on a child's device their parent installs either a proprietary OS or a FOSS with parental controls, but again, on your device you install whatever you want.
(Speaking as a parent of three) why can't we just leave all responsibility to the parents? In our experience in the offline world it seems this applies!
I speak as someone who's taken each of my three children - for two of them, multiple times - to the emergency room to be treated for broken bones incurred in the course of Real Life[tm].
Yes, they play contact sports.
Yes, we use Family Link with pretty restrictive settings.
Despite the series of broken bones, I'm still in favour of kids playing sports and still dubious about the effect of screen time on young minds...
Then I'm sure that you appreciate that there are both legal and informal checks in place ensuring that you can take responsibility for your children in the offline world. For example: I would be surprised if your children were able to play organized sports without your permission. Failing to ask for permission would deny you the responsibility of protecting your child as you see fit.
because we don't live in a 15th century peasant village. The average adult reads at a 7th grade level, 20% of adults are considered functionally illiterate, most adults can't navigate digital spaces, privacy and social media themselves or take on trillion dollar companies.
This also hasn't applied in the offline world since idk, Kant and Hegel, every modern state recognizes that children are persons and citizens in development, not private possessions. If your children have broken bones you can't explain or your parenting is considered to threaten the welfare of your child you can be pretty sure you'll have the authorities at your door quickly, and countries like France have given children the right to sue their parents in case they breach their digital privacy. So called 'sharenting' laws exist because it's not guaranteed that parents are even respecting the privacy of their own children.
But the current legislation is stupid. Treating toddlers like hackers, and forcing every website to deanonymize users. It is so backwards, that it's hard to believe it's not done on purpose as the first step to ban anonymity and strictly control all online access. In the UK of course they're already talking about having a VPN ban, because the hacker toddlers are learning how to mask their IP addresses.
If that's all we want then that's trivial -- just make certain phones that don't have access to social media, or have whatever limitations enforced. And kids only get those phones. I don't think anybody's addicted to desktop social media.
This gets us the privacy and the protection at once.
It won't work against a determined teen (too many unlocked devices out there), but it doesn't have to work perfectly to change the culture that most kids have to deal with.
The reason it’s not done “this way” or “that way” even when those are objectively better ways to achieve the stated goal, but rather in an unexplainable way broader way is because the goal is broader that that and age verification is just the tip of the spear. The rest of it is laying the groundwork for a framework to control the freedom on the internet by linking identity to speech and action.
Look at what solution is implemented to decide what problem is it supposed to fix, otherwise you’re just looking at the smoke and mirrors.
Not that every state and country is on board with this, but it’s getting a lot harder to maintain the pressure to keep these initiatives down. Every time they get pushed one step forward it’s that much harder to regain that ground.
Imagine if such an approach was taken to, for example, food safety? Instead of closing down a restaurant that has poor hygiene, you'd be instead horce the restaurant to hire a private security contractor to check people's IDs to verify that they are old enough to consent to getting a foodborne illness. That's an absurd approach.
The stuff I've seen on this doesn't look terribly convincing. It seems to mostly be along the same lines as saying that since some people get bullied or hang out with a bad crowd, socializing in general is harmful.
The trouble is, compromise isn't really a tenable option with encryption. Either you make a draconian law that forces all electronic devices to run approved software only, or people will have access to easy encrypted messaging. There's really no middle ground, because where the smallest weakening of encryption affects everyone's privacy, only outlawing encryption completely will get it out of the hands of criminals. The cat's out of the bag.
Author here and in earlier writing seems to make the argument that a little compromise would make the courts less unhappy, but I think that's misattributing motivation. These laws actually are originated by big tech, who think they will be shielded from liability and make more money off of selling your data. https://github.com/upper-up/meta-lobbying-and-other-findings
That would outlaw programming. It's just not feasible at all, anyone with any kind of tech literacy understands that encryption is here to stay. It's also necessary for the web to function at all for the things we use it for, such as banking.
There is no way to prevent people from communicating in secret. Even if they did strictly control digital communication people would just communicate some other way.
Well, mission accomplished, reaction provoked. I'm not going to read this multiple times. I'm going to fire off this comment and remove it from my brain forever.
This is on purpose.
This is the intent.
> Just on that repeated experience, I suspect we have already seen more than half of the “worst software bugs found with LLM-tools” list.
On the other hand, it’s not clear to me how you think that it already is “in a very big way”.
> The only real question for me is: Are the LLM-code-review tools economically viable outside the bubble?
Now that's quite a prediction.
His argument is not that they aren't going to find any bugs, but rather that at some point those bugs will be fixed. At which point we will continue on as usual.
If the argument were instead that it will cease to find new classes of vulnerabilities and bugs, that may very well be true, because that is a question of the limitations of programming and at a lower level computer architecture, but that's not the argument the author made.
This part is the load bearing claim. Why would you continue on as usual? I'm using LLM's everyday on code reviews and they still catch bugs.
I'm treading lightly after you said "did you read it" to OP, I do believe we both understand that argument isn't nearly air-tight. (i.e. it implies either humans get so good at code that bug-introduction-rate falls percipitously, or, LLMs are so awesome they write all of our code bug-free. Neither of which jives with the thesis, that LLM code review is a nothingburger long term)
The best steelman we could say is "he meant 50% of all existing bugs in all currently existing code", which is still incompatible with a time-bound on their usefulness, unless we expect the rate of new code to fall percipitously.
The steelman I'm using, is they're speaking both loosely and strongly and intend us to understand these are strong opinions, held loosely, and they care for us enough to share.
The point he’s trying to make, as I understand it, is that states adapt. They don’t just throw up their hands and say “guess we can’t do anything about that encrypted traffic.”
The response to distributed kinetic kill capability in the US, for example, is for police to become more militarized and treat every encounter as a potentially lethal one.
> There's private, and there's not private. There is nothing in between
It’s not an argument about privacy per se, it’s highlighting that the stronger the protections against state surveillance and intervention, the stronger the state becomes. By taking an absolutionist stance, we push our institutions to towards the same in response.
I’m not making an argument or against encryption or privacy, just pointing out the systemic effects.
The fact that you name one makes her very rare indeed.
Every time you step back, the opposing force advances one step and soon you’ll have the same discussion again except from an even weaker position. Do you really think that once the framework is in place everyone will forever be content and not push for the next step?
Like the author, you are advocating for the “small backdoor”. Or like another commenter put it, the prophylactic that only gets you a little pregnant. There’s no such thing.
The minimally compatible is what existed before. The Snowden leaks showed that the Government, and not just the US government, would abuse the shit out of that for mass surveillance.
So now privacy advocates no longer trust that such a compromise can exist
It’s strange that the author both recognizes that the Government broke the social contract and then says privacy advocates should just keep trusting them in the same article
I do recognize their point that it's been made very hard to catch and prosecute cyber criminals. I think there are ways to improve that that don't destroy the privacy of everyone. But if that's the real goal, why isn't it the big pitch line of the Parent's Decide Act?
> Maybe even enable age restrictions by default, block replacing the OS or the firmware, and only allow it once the age was confirmed.
Having an extra hurdle before installing Linux would be an awful secondary effect for this type of regulation independent of whether the check itself is already objectionable (which I always obviously think it is, although obviously plenty of people also don't)
There are a lot of different people in different countries pushing for age verification and I imagine they wouldn't all have the same motives.
I don't mean to be combative about this but
1) do you have children and 2) if yes, how many times have you taken your child to hospital with a broken bone
I have (unfortunately) got a certain amount of experience with this, and I'm not sure it works the way the uninitiated may think it does.
yes one and never but it's not clear to me what our personal life has to do with the legal fact that the welfare of our children is in fact not solely in our hands and is subject to limits we can run foul of
> A sensible regulator would leave some responsibility to the parents, but require restrictions for consumer devices (smartphones, laptops). Maybe even enable age restrictions by default, block replacing the OS or the firmware, and only allow it once the age was confirmed.
If you think that this statement is too broad for this thread, I don't understand why you only have issue with my direct response to it. It seems like your issue is with the parent comment I replied to for not being on-topic enough.
How do I propose the government know if I have kids? I'm pretty sure they already know that I don't?
> why can't we just leave all responsibility to the parents? In our experience in the offline world it seems this applies!
It would be illegal under the currently proposed /implemented laws and also open up social media to liability, which wouldn’t be true for other products like Alcohol or fire arms that require minimum age to buy but not give to children
Also give it to your kids too often and the state can step in.
Defense in depth
They can't be tracked, as long as the devices are in randomly sorted identical boxes. Of course someone can buy a device and give it to a kid, but that's already possible with alcohol (and legal if it's their kid).
I bought a beer yesterday and shared it with our 16 year-old, and I shared some wine with him this evening.
How does that not come under "parental responsibility"?