Personally, I see these language fights as being a bit pointless. They are trying to optimize at the wrong layer. Unless one is working with a dependently typed language, which requires a proof assistant to discharge type checks, then it's all just a question of where you make the trade-off. Don't care about memory leaks or deadlocks as part of your soundness guarantees, but can't have GC? Use Rust. Okay with runtime overhead to verify checks? Consider fil extensions.

If you want to go deeper, skip the language wars entirely. Tooling does what these languages can't do. I have had great success model checking C with CBMC. Not only does this prevent memory safety issues (including memory leaks), but this also prevents deadlocks. Bonus: you can write user contracts and invariants to verify that every execution path of a function fulfills these contracts and invariants.

Kani comes close with Rust. It doesn't yet have decent concurrency support, but there is nothing that prevents this from being added in the future. The ability to write custom contracts and enforce custom invariants more than makes up for its lack of concurrency support. Similar technology could be used or adapted for Zig or C++.

Use whichever language you like. Just, please look into model checking it. The technology scales just fine, once you get over the learning curve and learn how to use compositional verification.

My biggest problem with the refusal to be memory safe is the fact that those problems end up becoming my problems when I am forced to use these applications and I have to think about how there might be a zero-click zero-day that uses an overflow in some random codec. Not as a software developer, but a regular person I want my application to be written in rust or at least use fil-c at bare minimum.

Now as a software developer I feel like this is even more important because I use libraries maintained by thousands of other developers that might also use applications that have these exploits which get their systems compromised pushing malware to thousands of other developers which end up compromising even more libraries.

I believe that memory safety should be the standard for software that thousands if not millions rely on and that it shouldn't be some political issue of X is better, Y is that, Z is something else.

But then again, social engineering is the primary source of malware spread so I don't know.

This is perhaps a different take, but one reason I love Zig and C is because I've learned how to reason in pointers. I've worked with Rust in the past on a ~12,000 LOC side project, so I was all in with tree ownership and XOR mutability. But it turns out there's all sorts of delightful data structures that you can only express with unsafe in Rust. Intrusive doubly linked lists are the coolest thing ever. The fact that I can have a LRU cache that changes what's at the front by shuffling some pointers, while still keeping stable addresses so the hash map stays stable? That's freaking cool. Atomic operations with pointers for linked lists is really slick for implementing an allocator's free list between threads. Being able to walk a live heap using a breadth first search by just... following pointers, made the elegance of Dijkstra's algorithm come alive.

Now, maybe I'm only running into these algorithms because these are the problems I'm running into, but in the Rust community I consistently got the message that linked lists were a legacy data structure. In some cases they are, but when they do apply they do so brilliantly.

I know working in Zig leaves plenty of room for memory unsafety. Perhaps that's a bad thing. But I'm implementing an interpreter, and these algorithms are essential for it to run fast. I really do need to be aware of where every allocation happens, and what instructions the computer is running. So for now I stick with Zig, even though I know I'm opening myself up to memory exploits.

I don't think you need to be an absolutist or only use memory safe languages but it's very obvious that we need to do a whole lot better than we actually do. Rewriting in Rust or any other language is one way to do that, but not a perfect one. I'll accept C++ when most C++ software has 1 in 50 chance of an RCE and not just a 1 in 50 chance of a known RCE. I think we can get there but we are not currently there.

Coreutils has a good track record. Ffmpeg doesn't. They should have rewritten ffmpeg in Rust, not coreutils.

There are other approaches though like formal verification.

Pizlo is not a memory safety absolutist. His rhetoric towards rust is a tactic specifically designed to draw more attention to him and his project. It is amplified by people who already had a bone to pick with rust and take joy in giving rust folk "a taste of their own medicine," so to speak. Articles like this are taking the bait.

Good article. Not much to add to it, other than I think more people should look at modal type systems like found in Scala 3 and OxCaml. If you want safe arena allocation they are a lot more ergonomic than Rust's approach.

As long as rowhammer is still out there, aint none of your memory safe. Fixing rowhammer is the memory safety absolutism I want to hear more about.

Fil-C is basically an alternate ABI and libc runtime. Otherwise it is not tied to C and I see no reason it couldn't be targeted by Rust or Zig.

Funny to see how Rust devs start to make up new labels when it turns out some language performs better then their language.

I was not aware of the antagonism from the Zig / Fil-C people to Rust, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Like, of course you can prevent all memory safety errors by using a garbage collector. That has been known since the 90s. In fact, there was a good two decades after Java released where all the research on memory safety just stopped, because the standard answer became "use a GC". If you couldn't use GC, you were stuck with languages made prior to Java - which in practice meant just C - or the one language everyone tried to staple every new programming paradigm onto, C++.

In fact, part of why C++ became such an untameable beast of a language is because it became load-bearing for non-GC projects. Anything not in the ISO C++ standard was, in practice, something you just couldn't do in native code. Oh, of course you can't introspect structs in a compiled language, of course macros are useless and unhygenic, of course templates have to be monomorphized and bloat your binary size. And so the pressure for C++ to be an all-singing, all-dancing, all-dressed language grew.

Rust's big story is memory safety, but the more Rust I wrote, the more I realized that the memory safety is only part of the picture. Rust has a very nicely curated selection of features that allows the language to remain understandable despite the sophistication of the compiler. Memory safety is a selling point, sure, but it is also the lubricant that makes working with those features pleasant.

If you want a real complaint about Rust, it's that some features are oversimplified in ways that make certain scenarios harder and make some features way more "magic" than they should be. Have you ever tried writing Futures code without making use of the async keyword? It's nearly impossible, for several reasons; the main being that Rust's type systems cannot express self-referential borrows. This also makes returning a reference to something in an Rc or RefCell you own more difficult[0]. And there are numerous other states memory can be in that are hidden from Rust's type system. Rust can't even represent a real destructor fn. Dropping a value multiple times, or using it after it's been dropped, is explicitly forbidden; but Drop impls still can't take values out of themselves because Rust doesn't have an "owned reference" - i.e. memory you can take values from but can't deallocate.

But none of this compromises memory safety - it just makes certain things harder than they should be.

[0] Strictly speaking, there's an owning_ref crate that manages this; stdlib is also working on a "mapped mutex guard" type that would do the same thing without a dependency.

> Our historical data for C and C++ shows a density of closer to 1,000 memory safety vulnerabilities per MLOC.

Unfortunately, I've never seen a version of this data targeting modern C++ (>=11, with smart pointers, already 15 years old).

Something that is important to me is that it's caught at compile time. A memory issue is a logic bug. Fil-c simply moves that from undefined behavior/security issue/incorrectness to a crash. That's better than what it was. But I generally don't want my programs to crash. Having memory safety at compile time is much more worthwhile imo.

It's annoying how many comment sections online are now just Rust vs Fil-C / Zig flamewars, and the creators of those languages are deliberately fanning the flames.

I also feel there's a second dimension to the politics, where Rust is the "woke" language and C / Zig / Odin are now the "anti-woke" languages. At least, going by their most vocal online communities.

I'm sure offline there's still engineering decisions being made (I hope).

Repeat after me: Rust is not just memory safe C++!

Memory safety is a really big reason to use Rust, but it is very very far from the only reason. Even if Fil-C was magically zero-overhead (that is basically what CHERI is), I would still rather use Rust.

Rust has so many advantages over something like Fil-C it's hard to list them. I think Fil-C is a great project but it's only really relevant if you have no choice but to use C. If you can use Rust you also get:

* Compile time memory safety (Fil-C / CHERI are run-time).

* A modern functional-style type system (helps prevent logic bugs).

* Tree ownership (helps prevent logic bugs)

* Sane toolchain (helps prevent hair loss).

* Easy dependencies.

* Vastly more things checked at compile time.

Also I find it amusing how this post claimed it wasn't about Rust and then spent the whole time talking about it.

Rust is great. I don't think that really needs to be debated any more.

Someone should fire up an AI and create Fil-Rust by connecting the Fil-C llvm backend to rustc, ending this flamewar. I guess it is well within the capabilities of a Fable class model, even if the driver doesn't have experience in compiler development.

> But Rust is unsafe, isn't it? It has unsafe after all! If you want to be that strict, or in other words, if you are a memory safety absolutist, that may well be true for you. I, and I hope most people, am more pragmatic than that.

So... Yes, Rust is less safe. Just that now the Rust apologist wants to back away from that and say that actually memory safety isn't actually the end all be all. C has a lot of security problems. Rust has less, at the cost of breaking the ecosystem. Fil-C has even less, and breaks the ecosystem. Why is the place Rust stops now suddenly good enough?

I absolutely agree learning C is a good thing! In fact, there are two camps of Rust people: one that argue that you should not learn C before learning Rust, and one that argues that you should.

Also, while such data structures/algorithms are rare, and more importantly, they can be written once and used many times, someone still needs to write them!

Here is some online content on this side of Rust:

- Learn Rust the Dangerous Way - https://cliffle.com/p/dangerust/

- Learn Rust With Entirely Too Many Linked Lists - https://rust-unofficial.github.io/too-many-lists/

- The Rustonomicon - https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/

> But it turns out there's all sorts of delightful data structures that you can only express with unsafe in Rust. Intrusive doubly linked lists are the coolest thing ever.

I don't mean this to be a gotcha, but I think it's important to say that we can have these in rust too! The only difference is that the first thing we have to talk about is you the user can go about using an intrusive collection correctly. I love the cordyceps crate for this. If you want to be able to use your type as a linked list node, you must implement a Linked trait, the documentation of which clearly explains how to use it safely: https://docs.rs/cordyceps/latest/cordyceps/trait.Linked.html

Given your performance concerns, I'm imagining you're unlikely to run Zig-Fil in practice, due to the GC overhead?

The thing that has changed is that there are spaces where security is being taken more seriously, and C's memory unsafety became a deal breaker there. I do think that providing a mechanism to run existing C software that isn't performance sensitive in a way that mitigates its limitations is very worthwhile.

I think the "static analysis" and the "runtime checks" approaches are complementary, not in opposition, making any noise around having to choose one or the other moot.

> Like, of course you can prevent all memory safety errors by using a garbage collector. That has been known since the 90s.

No, it's been known since GC was invented.

> In fact, there was a good two decades after Java released where all the research on memory safety just stopped, because the standard answer became "use a GC".

Having done all of my research on memory safety after Java was released, I find this statement a little exaggerated... (e.g., https://barnowl.org/research/pubs/98-pldi-regions.pdf, https://barnowl.org/research/pubs/07-hotos-linux.pdf)

> you can prevent all memory safety errors by using a garbage collector

Garbage collection and a higher-level language that controls allocations handles 2/3 of the memory-safety problem space (using memory you shouldn't via use-after-free, or using memory you shouldn't before allocation/via arbitrary address access), but the other 1/3 isn't addressed by GC: out-of-bounds access on properly-allocated structures.

GC-or-not doesn't stop a pointerful language from addressing memory off the end of an array, and the best techniques we have to deal with that today are imperfect (but still pretty good!) compiler inference for BCE, memory protection to limit the scope of possible overreach, or slowing down runtime by inserting checks.

The rest of your points are well-taken; just pointing out that GC isn't the solution to all causes of memory-unsafety, just 2/3 of 'em.

> I was not aware of the antagonism from the Zig .. people to Rust, but it makes absolutely no sense.

Lol, have you ever watch Andrew Kelley speak? I've only seen 3 or 4 talks he's given, but he frequently makes not-so-subtle digs towards Rust. Zig's home page prominently displays "Focus on debugging your application rather than debugging your programming language knowledge" which sounds horrible to me, but is clearly an anti-rust statement. Competition is good, and Rust and Zig cater to different people, but when the primary personality behind Zig is leads the way, it shouldn't be a surprise that some tribalism-influenced followers lean hard into it.

You can just...not use it though? It's not comparable to trying to avoid it in C/C++ because there's literally just one keyword to never use and then you're good, compared to it being possible to silently introduce in any number of ways. I put a lint in my Cargo.toml to forbid unsafe code in my projects, and now I'm guaranteed not to write unsafe code.

To apply your logically consistently, you'd also have to throw out Go[1], Java[2], C#[3], and plenty of other languages. I guess you can define a logically consistent taxonomy of languages where Fil-C is the only "safe" language any everything else is unsafe, but then the burden is on you to prove that it's a useful way of thinking about them. Meanwhile, the way that people who consider Go and Java and Rust to be safe and C/C++ to be unsafe will continue to see actual real-world differences in outcomes when using a safe language compared to unsafe ones.

As an aside, it continues to be absolutely wild to me to see how most arguments in favor of C/C++ over Rust nowadays are based on framing things theoretically rather than practical ones. It was not all that long ago that the situation was reversed, with people claiming that Rust's benefits were all theoretical when most C/C++ code would have all of the UB found and removed over time. Now that Rust actually has been getting used for real-world stuff for a few years, and the number of vulnerabilities found in C/C++ code does not seem to be going down any time soon, any actual empirical evidence gets handwaved away. Maybe Fil-C will be able to provide as large benefits to running C safely in production like its proponents claim in the future, and if so, that will be a solid argument against the utility of Rust in a lot of situations, but if we're collectively going to shift the standard to discount pragmatism over theory in this debate, we might as well not try to hide it.

[1]: https://pkg.go.dev/unsafe

[2]: https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E92951_01/coherence/java-referenc...

[3]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/api/system.runtime....

Like everything, it's about trade-offs. C is really unsafe. Rust is almost entirely safe, and breaks the ecosystem just a little bit. Fil-C is entirely safe, and breaks the ecosystem entirely.

I don't immediately follow how Rust breaks the ecosystem. Rust has very good C FFI support and fully supports the default C ABI. It just requires unsafe bindings.

Unsafe doesn't disable the borrow checker