DeepSeek V4 Flash 0731(arcprize.org) |
DeepSeek V4 Flash 0731(arcprize.org) |
promising!
But I find it having a pretty significant problem with tool calling - no idea why, but tool calling with it is SLOW. As long as the model is reasoning, all good. But give it a bunch of tools and it becomes extremely slow.
Am I the only one experiencing this?
What secret sauce do they have?
pair it with codewhale, 50 agents, 200 MB of ram.
That's irrelevant when you use $/task as the metric, which the OP does use.
That's how I handle the Qwen27B and 35B
What do you mean by "redirect it to useful output"? Could you give an example? This sounds interesting.
Imagine if they had GPU resources of western labs.
SV companies get way too comfortable when they have enough in the bank to stay running more than three months.
Energy and intelligence are good too, sure.
As an end consumer, I don't care about the number of active parameters. I really do care only about the tracked metric (how well does it do the job, and how much does it cost... ideally also with time included, but that wouldn't fit on a 2D chart)
With the exception of cache costs, all providers have similar input/output costs.
OpenCode Go even has double limits temporarily so for 10 USD you effectively get 140 USD of tokens to spend. It would impress me if someone could burn that amount with "normal" usage. Even when running multiple sessions.
I have a Claude Max subscription but I've barely touched it, it just feels like a step back to have to think about limits and usage even though the models are stronger.
The beauty of intelligence at this cost (even if it's not SOTA) is that it opens a whole bunch of new use cases. Test failure in CI? Have the bot automatically propose a fix, its cheap enough that you can discard it w/h issues. Test coverage too low? Auto generate tests on CI for every pull-requests! Monitoring server logs, continuous security audits and investigating every received exception now becomes possible.
I'm thinking about having it automatically filter and re-rank my social media feeds so I can steer the algorithm instead of the other way around.
Perhaps other people (with enormous budgets) were already doing all of the above but for us this is a really exciting release!
There's no way large companies outside the US will pay the "US AI lab" premium if they can get the same workloads done at a fraction of the cost using open-weight models that they can self-host and optimize/fine-tune on.
For simple queries, we have reached the threshold since the beginning of the year, and models are good enough from every provider to make a meaningful difference between one another. (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Grok, MuseSpark, Kimi, DeepSeek, GLM...)
The real unlock will be, and you can already see it with GPT-5.6 and Fable-5, to delegate complex enough tasks that will take more than 24 hours to get done and they will not lose track. I'm not talking about a loop, but the actual intelligence to recover from these compounding errors that accumulate in dumber models.
We're still a long way from the intelligence needed to let one of these agents go ahead and supervise multiple layers of sub-agents underneath to do complex orchestration. The future looks very promising and exciting. Imagine having the possibility of a Frontier model orchestrating as many sub-agents as needed that are running on cheaper models like DeepSeek.
With 5 active sessions going nonstop? That seems like a pretty important qualifier.
i used for work where i did less and it quickly reaches thousands if you're not careful. i can already see what some will say: skill issue et cetera - whatever.
$5/days is ~330 Mtok/day, that’s a nontrivial amount of work, and none of the gpts are more efficient than deepseek at $/task if deepseek meets your quality bar.
> I'm running it in Oh My Pi with a second instance running as "advisor" and even with 5-6 active sessions (effectively 12 streams)
Not true. Sol on XHigh or Max runs out even on the $200/mo plan. It's not close to effectively unlimited. Maybe at 2x the current allowance it can.
And to be frank, it is not that much weaker for regular software development work. I use Claude at work and I see no difference in capability. I only notice a dramatic difference in how much more expensive it is.
vLLM has recently released a similar approach. It's not as effective as what DeepSeek does but still an interesting development.
I have no doubt that in due time other providers will match or perhaps even beat the current DeepSeek prices.
[0] https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4-flash-0731#provid...
which in your case is?
My family uses it. I have gallery apps (yearbooks for each year are a lot of fun!) of us on trips and just living, an outlining app that's a mesh of Workflowy and Org Mode (it's called Fluxtral), a markdown-backed app (it uses marked.min.js, and is called Dextral) that offers documents, logs, calendars, and kanban boards, all parsed from markdown. I have a List app for gear, trips, shopping, etc. that we all can contribute to. There are utilities (world clock, calendar) and games (an oracle for RPGs, a KenKen implementation), and apps (a diagram editor that exports to SVG, a web-launcher that uses pneumonics, a Scheme-based hacking environment, and a spreadsheet that does most of what you'd expect aside from Solver and Pivot tables).
I started these projects before AI, and made slow progress over the years, but the modern versions of all this stuff have been built with Deepseek V4 Flash. I've also used Gemini in the very early days, and Kimi K2.6 later on, but these days, since I can now host Deepseek v4 Flash 0731 in a 2-bit quant on my Strix Halo box (128GB, but only about 250GB/s of memory bandwidth, so 15t/s), I used Deepseek with omp for almost everything. It's a very capable model, and I'm amazed I can run it locally and get good results. It's really revolutionary for my (small) use cases.
oh, they're mad.
And, probably 99.99% of people using LLM probably don't even need SOTA anyway.
I hadn't really thought about this but AI may well be the technology that disrupts and ultimately destroys social media.
The value proposition of something like FB or IG is, as we know, the network effect. The platform gets to extract value from user generated content. I believe that users should own the platform, a bit like the Wikimedia Foundation, because they're the ones that create value. Federation is a popular belief on HN and I've come to believe that's simply the wrong solution to the right problem.
Anyway, how these social media companies make money is by optimizing the feed for engagement. People know it too so you see people trying to build an audience by rage baiting. And then more time spent equals more advertising revenue.
But what happens when the AI can simply slurp all the posts and then filter and rank them? It destroys the engagement and advertising model. And I'm not opposed to that, honestly. It may be on eof the few good thing sto come out of AI.
this seems like such a bad idea
"If this PR adds any new endpoints, ensure that there are functional and integration tests. If there are not, please investigate the feasibility and appropriateness, and create functional tests using the guide found on our wiki for guidance https://www.ourdevwiki.site/how-to-make-functional-tests" then maybe it could add some value.
But that very much depends on the specific system. Some tests are obvious, some not so much.
The analogy I like is that building software is running a Michelin restaurant. The moment you scale, the chef is just writing cooking books and is absent, and you move into franchising, you will be amazed at the bottom line revenue scaling, while customers will be progressively appalled with the food...
Terrible use-case.
I've been running this model locally for a week, and the preview version before that. This updated one feels like a whole tier up. It's very capable for debugging and analyzing documents/data I upload.
The killer feature, IMO, is the speed. On 2x RTX Pro 6000 Blackwell, its ~8k tok/s prefill and ~250 tok/s on a single stream. I saw 1000 tok/s with ~64 concurrent streams on vLLM.
That's fast enough that you can interactively chat with it without switching tabs while you wait, and its a ~300B (13B active, hence the speed) model so the responses are also very good. It's actually more convenient now for me to direct 95%+ of my day to day usage to my local model, and only use Claude Fable for really big coding tasks.
Until this model was released, I was contemplating spending even more money on hardware to run GLM5.2 (~750B) at reasonable speeds, but I no longer feel that need. This is smart enough, and I think it only gets much better for local models from here.
I wouldn't call 80 t/s slow.
My initial thought was to sign up for ChatGPT, but I had $20 in OpenRouter so I've been trying out DeepSeek V4 Pro with Pi for the last few days and I gotta say, it's good enough for my use case. And even with paying for API usage rather than Claude's subsidised subscription, and with OpenRouter taking their cut, I will probably end up paying significantly less overall. And I really like the flexibility of being able to use whatever minimalist open source harness I want (and being able to switch providers easily, too).
(My demands probably aren't as high as many others' - I mostly use it for help with some hobbyist coding projects, and I tend to ask it questions about how to approach problems rather than just telling it to go off and code stuff for me.)
If you prefer subscriptions, OpenCode Go ($10/mo), Cline Pass ($10/mo), Atlas Code ($20/mo), and CommandCode ($1/mo) serve some of the best open weights with generous limits. OpenCode Go currently offers $120 for $10 on DeepSeek Flash v4 (if you're okay with data retention).
This is on Pi agent, nothing fancy at all about my prompts or use case. Anyone else experiencing this?
I've also had it randomly go from talking about Rust to talking about the electric chair, controversies about D&D rules (both irrelevant and something I've never discussed) and it's completely blind to it in future prompts even when its pointed out and referenced directly
All this said its still worth it but the agentic performance has degraded in my experience at least
When it was first available in opencode, it was kinda slow for me, I guess because everyone wanted to try the new shiny. But now it's back to being screamingly fast and Opus 4.8 level of smart, for penies.
It is strong (not Fable strong though) with a much better “persona” than Opus, and very different blindspots. If you flip between Claude and this you will find both catch the mistakes of the other before they get out of control.
On balance I actually prefer DeepSeek for programming now, because of the way it talks.
From here on, it's going to become all about harnesses that best situate and organize swarm intelligence at scale.
Which would put them... exactly where everyone else is on this graph.
Edit: I seem to have misunderstood the news. I thought the magical cache read pricing was going away (0.002) and they were going to be on par with everyone else (0.02). But I have no idea.
No.
They sent an email to customers saying that they will raise prices "significantly".
How much that will be is speculation.
My guess is that they will just remove the 75% discount they gave when they released V4 preview. It will still be relatively cheap even at 4x the current price.
Does no thinking emissions for context saving.
[0] https://taylor.town/silver-landmines
When I see dramatic leaps like this, it tells me that the important hacks haven't yet been discovered.
ARC-AGI II:
- GPT-5.2 (medium) %26.7 ($0.759)
- DSV4-Flash (max) %61.4 ($0.04)
https://reddit.com/r/DeepSeek is where the fellow F5ers are at.
Tell your PjM who should tell your PgM who should tell your PdM, all the PMs...
Maybe if "the business" sees it is true of LLMs, they might believe it's true of giving better context to engineers up front then giving them time to think and prototype (thinking tokens are an answer prototype).
Seems like we've reached the event horizon of whether AI advances are worth paying attention to.
I recommend opencode or something akin to it to play with models. Any big model updates or hot new ones will naturally run across your desk that way
A chinese model being in the same ballpark of capability at half the price sounds believable to me.
it's still $3/$15 for all providers on openrouter
because of some Kimi license
Uptime looks crap, though.
"We plan to raise the overall pricing for DeepSeek API services in the near future, with a significant increase expected. Please plan your usage accordingly. The specific pricing plan will be subject to official notice."
So we won't see any price decrease unless Kimi changes the license of K3
Spark is actually the interesting one imo. It's significantly better, also significantly faster. If you are ok with letting Meta soak up your data (which DS does too) it's also the same price.
harness: omp.sh
I can pretty easily burn through my weekly quota over several agent coding hours with minimal supervision when tasked with some pretty large but well-planned refactors.
My read is, OpenAI is neither able to claw b2b money (away from Ant) nor are they able to stave off open weights on the other. In short, they're struggling to hold onto their distant #2 position in the coding market, and these pricing changes reflect a (desperate) change in strategy.
the private endpoint costs 10x (azure).
private endpoints for deepseek (lots of providers) also cost about 10x more.
but 10x more for deepseek is $0.028 cached input, and 10x more for luna is $0.10.
The entire issue is caching, I tried to write some custom to dump to disk kv-caching using some ideas from their papers and my experience with snapshots and vm checkpoint systems, I must say they must have really squeezed that lemon it's hard.
Atleast me with Sol couldn't figure it out over a couple days, a few hours each day, which isn't much but I did feel a bit stuck with existing solutions and felt like I might have to write something from scratch. But if you are willing to put in the effort into the infra I do think it's doable. But it will be really hard to pull it off.
My congrats to anyone who manages to pull it off, they might be able to kill off most AI labs. Assuming they can find the compute, Deepseek really has killed all models for me other than Sol/Fable/Opus/K3 tier stuff.
And there is no way in hell anyone can afford caching prices same as what DeepSeek is offering, and DeepSeek keeps the cache available for an insane amount of time most providers will flush it in 5-mins like Claude/Anthropic (some offer customizing it but I am not sure of the pricing, it's load based on some like Fireworks, which means assume a couple minutes at most, they say several minutes god knows what that really means).
There is no way to match DeepSeek's current prices, "profitably" if you are renting a GPU and reselling tokens, unless you have some really amazing caching infra or something.
Deepseek's prices are just insanely cheap, I am not saying it's impossible to get there the overall performance suggests it should be feasible, but I will be damned if any provider could match their tps and caching any time soon at those same prices profitably.
I believe even if Deepseek 2-3x their prices across the board even then they would be cheaper for most long running tasks, that's just how good their caching is.
For one I have managed to hit the cache after I over 24 hours on their system it's insane, the honestly didn't care because it was so cheap but it truly made me incredibly happy to think about the engineering that must have taken. TTFT is slightly worse, but it's good enough, for those cache prices I can take a few seconds worth of hit on TTFT.
It's interesting that most open models adding 1M context did it in a way that reduces KV cache size (though DeepSeek was the most aggressive, using compressed attention on all layers), but only a couple providers turned it into a discount on cache reads.
Can anyone working at one of the main US labs (Google, OpenAI, Anthropic) comment on WTF they haven't even tried MLA - despite the obvious massive advantages?
I know enough to know they aren't completely incompetent. So there must be a quite good reason.
But it remains a mystery to me.
DeepSeek's MLA is like almost 2 years old at this time. They've got thousands of people working on this stuff. They clearly have the ability to at least try it...
There’s a measurable performance tradeoff versus gqa so there’s reluctance.
For the most part though the new deepseek v4 tech is hca and mhc and people are still catching on like with moe and rl. Wait for 6 12 months, minimum time for next pre train.
The big US labs are opaque and don't publish much of any technical details anymore. We don't know what they are or aren't doing, honestly.
- input_cache_hit_tokens: 1,265,646,976 x 0.0000000028 = $3.5438115328
- input_cache_miss_tokens: 18,208,088 x 0.00000014 = $2.54913232
- output_tokens: 9,615,178 x 0.00000028 = $2.69224984
- request_count: 10,837 (no price)
Cache:
- Hit: 1,265,646,976
- Miss: 18,208,088
- Total input tokens: 1,283,855,064
Deepseek charges $0.0028 per cache read on Openrouter. The next cheapest is $0.018.
That's a massive difference and quickly adds up on coding sessions (which often hit 95%+ cached tokens).
They "can" is the caveat here. Rented GPUs are going up in pricing. I recently got an email that DigitalOcean pricing of GPUs were going up.
So
1. They have to get a hold of them (availability is bad)
2. They have to maintain the pricing
This adds disk as a tier in the HBM → CPU → Disk KV cache hierarchy.
There's also a cluster of related KV-offload FS PRs: #49225 (read/write batching, still open) and #49152 (batch store/load in C, merged Jul 28).
It's hard to say if these are similar to the approach DeepSeek takes but they definitely seem very interesting.