Many web people got their start freelancing. You may know some. It is not uncommon to incorporate when doing that. The idea is if you fuck up their site somehow (or more likely - they claim you did) they can't try and go after your personal bank account or your car or your house. Only what is held by your company. You also get other benefits, like tax breaks for being such an industrious member of society.
The same incentives are being set up on both sides. Because generally it is good for society when people start companies. A company as a liability shield is only a bad thing if you think personal assets should be at risk because someone is unhappy about what you did at work. If someone wants to sue you over something that happened as part of business deal, why should they be able to threaten the house your family lives in?
Seems sensible to me. While there may be problems as the scale of the company (and remuneration of its officers) increases, the underlying principle isn't exactly hard to understand. If you shot up a public area and then tried to claim that was a business activity, you would obviously not have an argument. It isn't plausible on its face. So I'm really not sure what point you're making.
If it's just complaining that it is hard to prove things in court when massive companies are involved, then tough. It is also relatively hard to convict people who shoot off guns in public even if a whole bunch of people saw them. In simpler times a mob would have simply formed and executed them. We don't get to do that anymore, because we don't want to live under mob rule.
That's what rule of law demands.
I'm running a terrorist training simulation and unwitting participants entered the area! Whoops! You haven't addressed the point of a company (composed of people) creating something that exceeds its bounds. Is a company liable if they are working on nuclear power and delete the city they are operating out of? Why would a software company be treated differently when it causes harm to a third party?
This is a common misconception. A corporation doesn’t protect you from personal liability. If you intentionally or negligently damage someone’s property they can sue you personally. In many cases they can sue both, and it’s easier to collect from an established business, but that doesn’t do you any good as a freelancer.
Nuisance lawsuits aren’t much of an issue because insurance covers the legal defense and indemnifies you
Someone committing crimes "on behalf" of a company is not protected by the corporate veil and absolutely will get prosecuted individually (well, for small companies -- big companies get to play with different rules, which was the point GP was making).
Also the corporate veil is not absolute, it can get pierced in a few cases, and not everyone incorporates when they do contract work (in which case you need indemnity / private liability insurance).
The [Company] apologizes.
> TO LOSE CONTROL of one artificial intelligence may be regarded as misfortune. To lose two looks like carelessness. Lose four, and people may start to wonder whether the problem lies with AI itself.
No fingers pointed at the company, just the "AI". Funny how that works.
Demand ai cleaners that are capable of being held accountable, or accept the risk you choose. Or just clean your own house.
No, AI companies should be treated like any other company. If their product is causing damages or loss of life it should be handled just like any other company that has a malfunctioning product that is causing damages or loss of life. If one day androids using AI go rogue the military can get things under control and the company can be taken offline until root causes are determined and resolved. Repeat offenders can be annexed under eminent domain, liquidated and victims paid out. Businesses must be permitted to fail. No special treatment for inept leaders of AI companies and no excuses. If the argument is that something has been created that is too complicated to understand then take it away from them until they are not only qualified but also act like responsible grown-ups.
This is sloppy. Criminal negligence exists (although some crimes do require intent). And civil tort certainly doesn't require intent.
Blame the prompter or person who assigned the task to the AI. It's their responsibility to use the tool in a safe way, just like it's a gun owner's duty not to fire their weapon carelessly into the air.
I 100% agree with you, of course.
Yes, there are also other ways to pierce the corporate veil. In the vast majority of cases, they do not apply or would not be provable. Bringing up exceptions to the rule doesn't mean the rule is misconceived. As most devs know, sites can get fucked up for all sorts of reasons. A client relationship may deteriorate to the point they may think you are negligent. The chances of a court agreeing to pass liability through to you personally on that basis are likely 0. As such, incorporating itself still offers protection.
Just like if a CEO shoots someone while on the clock and tried to say it was a business activity, and got personally indicted, doesn't therefore mean incorporation was a waste of time. Essentially the theory behind piercing the veil is that some aspect of the alleged crime was not a legitimate business activity. Such as fraud.
> Nuisance lawsuits aren’t much of an issue because insurance covers the legal defense and indemnifies you.
There is that too. Although if you are running a small software business this step is often not worth it. Yes, anyone can make outlandish claims. It doesn't mean incorporation as a personal liability shield is not highly valuable and well established.
There is already precedent on more or less this exact scenario. Except you usually don't call people under your own jurisdiction "terrorists". That sort of term is reserved for people running those businesses in certain other places. By the way, it is an interesting feature of the American legal system that this sort of incident could spawn many proceedings, where a civil suit against the company in question could be one among many.
> Is a company liable if they are working on nuclear power and delete the city they are operating out of?
In theory, obviously. You still have to prove it in court.
> Why would a software company be treated differently when it causes harm to a third party?
They wouldn't. Again, you still have to prove it in court.
> There is already precedent on more or less this exact scenario. Except you usually don't call people under your own jurisdiction "terrorists". That sort of term is reserved for people running those businesses in certain other places. By the way, it is an interesting feature of the American legal system that this sort of incident could spawn many proceedings, where a civil suit against the company in question could be one among many.
I don't have a jurisdiction as I am not the judiciary nor law enforcement. I'm really not sure what you're driving at.
If you were shot or a member of your family got "deleted" and you had sufficient control of the estate, then you would have standing.
Obviously, if you aren't involved you shouldn't be able to sue and be compensated because something happened to someone else that doesn't relate to you at all.
If companies are spending so many resources on "alignment" can they argue that they didn't know the risks of their research?
> Obviously, if you aren't involved you shouldn't be able to sue and be compensated because something happened to someone else that doesn't relate to you at all.
Crimes don't require standing wtf are you on about? Prosecutors bring charges not individuals.
Simply wrong. In criminal cases, the government may not elect to bring charges for all sorts of reasons. The civil courts will still be available to you. That will be true whether there are charges or not. Whether that results in a conviction or not.
The government can also initiate a civil suit. Criminal charges against businesses are rare. I'm not sure any would apply here. Perhaps you'd like to volunteer a statute?
> Simply wrong.
You didn't refute my point :P
Wait so I only need to make a company and use AI to hack US banks and anyone else I want?
You may want to read this first: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal-fraud/l...
If you actually want an answer, that might be a good starting point.
Or did you just want a cheap answer? Sam Altman paid off the president!!
Are you happier now? Hope so. I don't blame you. I guess it's a bad time to be on the rule of law side when overt corruption exists. Then again, as mentioned, if the other parties affected actually wanted to, they could sue. Afaik they haven't done so. Seems unlikely even in "normal" times a criminal case would happen under these circumstances.
I get that you are upset. But the rule of law should be respected. Even if we have to tolerate prosecutors handling cases differently than we would like.
Have a nice day!