The Citizen Developer(massdriver.cloud) |
The Citizen Developer(massdriver.cloud) |
But I still could calculate and write an electrical design project and draw all necessary plans and schemes without touching PC once – if I have a ruler, few pens and enough time (I would have to reference standards, but I did have most standards in print version)
I doubt your metaphor really fit. Was manufacturing ever an engineer job?
Engineering to these folks is a one-and-done endeavour. You just prompt and fire it off and ride off into the sunset, leaving the mess for someone else to clean up. They never see the work that goes on after the launch party. The midnight debugging sessions, the database migrations, the DNS failures, debates over which auth provider to use, the list goes on. Until the "citizen developer" is willing to engage in the less "sexy" part of software engineering, the world will move on without them as well.
More software than you'd think can get people killed, though.
And more software than you'd think is running inside a barely-understood SCADA package that runs user scripts, which can now be authored by AI the user doesn't understand, and that can result in either or both of the above outcomes. This is true in just about every city in the world, several times over.
That usually requires a 3 to 5 year degree, and possibly professional exam.
Having the AI do the work doesn't make one an engineer.
Just like one doesn't become a writer by owning a typewriter or a word processor.
I wouldn’t say it’s lacking value. Maybe digital plastic is the perfect metaphor. Plastic is disposable and probably bad for the environment. But useful for all sorts of weird little tasks. Plastic is everywhere despite its weaknesses because sometimes you just want a thing shaped like this.
I’ve got a little personal data archive going back 20 years. But unfortunately it’s suffering bit rot. Last night I discovered the main hard drive storing it is suffering read failures - the zfs checksums aren’t matching. I pulled out Claude and told it to make a program that could make, maintain and verify a sidecar database of file hashes and reed-Solomon parity data so I can fix some small percent of bit rot that the drive experiences. A 10% increase in file size is worth it for the peace of mind of knowing that footage of my late grandma will still exist when I’m her age. (I have backups, but the backups might also suffer bit rot and I might not even know).
Claude’s program isn’t art. I’m not putting it on my resume. If I had infinite time I’d love to make something like this lovingly by hand. But I’m busy. And Claude can make something in an hour or two which solves my problem. Nice.
Is it slop? Yes. Is it useful? Absolutely.
Visual Basic
Low-Code
Power Platform
Although AI substantially changes the situation the hard part of being an engineer was never the code.
A technician is defined by the tools they work with, an engineer is defined by the problems they can solve. Taking a dozen different business processes and stakeholders and figuring out how to actually solve the problems they have is engineering.
Your comment fits a pattern I see on HN all the time from the older crowd that was promoted to management way too early in their career. It's not helping.
Some arguments about shadow development and IT are valid, like security and who takes ownership after the original developers leave, but they don't really account for the reality that organizations expand constantly, business needs are perpetually exploding and most development shops are so mired in business requirements and bureaucracy that there's genuinely no value involved with interacting with them.
> business needs are perpetually exploding
Ignorance is perpetually overthinking. If you want to be an engineer, you should quit your current role and reapply instead of ranting on here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22034221
I was very anti it then - it was clearly Consultancy BS; but now non-devs really do have much more scope to create things that were only possible by software engineers before - and yes that creates challenges for us professionals.
But I no longer sneer at "The Citizen Developer" as an idea; its time has come.
The level of propaganda reaches Maoist proportions.
But as I've used it, I've noticed that it overcomplicates everything and often even forgets what it previously said, and makes decisions that contradict it.
The AIs need a firm guiding hand, like a lead developer would give junior and mid-level programmers, and even occasionally to a senior developer that went off the rails for personal obsessions.
For instance, I was just trying to have it make a simple shopping list app. I had Claude take my old shopping info from the Google Keep list we use (it keeps the old checked-off items) and get the latest grocery ad, and produce a list of suggestions. It was amazing! I decided I want to send that info to a server, have a checklist there, and then keep the info for later so the AI could do it again.
After a lot of questioning (via Matt Pocock's skills, which are great) it was so complicated I finally yelled at it for overcomplicating everything, and told it how simple I wanted it to be, again.
It kept insisting on IDs for products, IDs for stores, IDs for store sections... Even after I told it no IDs. I finally said it a few more times in different ways.
It's finally getting back to the simple webapp that I imagined. It needed a lot of handholding to get it there.
And it's the kind of thing I would see from devs that were inflexible and had to see things a certain way.
I'm not ruling out that it could eventually get over this phase, but I have a feeling it'll always be something that needs handling.
My other project right now was naturally complex, and needed a lot of that stuff, and things have been going better, but I still correct it rather a lot, even on things I'd previously told it.
There's lots of caveats asterisks & limitations, sure sure sure: we hear you Technically Correct repliers, here to spread your Well Actually naysayings.
But at the end of the day: heck yes. So much heck yes. Even if you are not engineering well, just the ability to have your agent go in and do reconissance of systems. "Reverse engineer this Bluetooth protocol for my device" or what I'm doing now, "reverse engineer my epaper display controller"... People have an incredibly powerful tool for assessing the world, for finding out.
And I for one strongly believe that will beget the great virous circle of lovely lovely fucking around. A wheel that is humanity's best invention, best motivation, best traction, best side, and one that any self proclaimed Hacker if any spirit ought be out of their seats cheering raving with excitement happy for.
A better analogy is, now you have what seems like an increasingly intelligent personal assistant that can do any cognitive work that you ask it to do, to increasingly better result, has retrograde amnesia, no accountability, entirely middle of the road morality, access to the internet... eh this isn't really a good analogy either.
More people have the capability now, but not necessarily the experience or understanding.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I think it's pretty obvious what parent poster was implying. Pedantic nitpicks add nothing to the discussion.
edit: sigh, fucking rate limits are such a dumb mechanic if you want quality long-form discussion. By the time I can reply nobody will be looking at their replies.
anyways LLMs might displace "programmers" in the way that 3D CAD software replaced draftsmen, but software engineering, the actual design and architecture skill, isn't going anywhere. I can use carpentry tools to build a bridge over a creek but I'm not qualified to build a bridge carrying Interstate traffic.
They actually do all of that
But in the early days of prestressed concrete (1920, 1930), a single civil engineer performed all of these functions.
The point is that the role of the modern civil engineer has changed and specialized over the decades. You can be a very competent civil engineer without having the knowledge or experience needed to perform every specialty.
Just because our ancestors in the 1940s handwrote binary sequences, and in the 1950s they handwrote assembly, and in the 1960s they handwrote FORTRAN, doesn't mean that today's software engineers need to be able to do any of that.
Isn’t this what society already largely rewards? See the personality cults around CEOs and not even founders.
These tool analogies are self-soothing for programmers who see agents is simple tools of their trade. But the point of articles like this is that AI agents are more like spreadsheets --- only more so. They're devices that allow normal people without training or aptitude to do things with computers that only programmers were doing before. They displace programmers.
In that sense, the closest physical analogy to a coding agent is probably a 3D printer. But: a really good 3D printer, into which hundreds of billions of dollars had been invested entirely for the purpose of making the printer work weirdly well even for people who have no interest in the different kidns of filament spools.
I'm more than OK with people writing their own software, indeed the main thing I like about the free software movement is that it makes it much easier for people to do that. It's empowering. I don't have a 3D printer, but I like the idea. I think people should be able to build as much of their own stuff as they want. I have a caveat though, which I'll get to at the end.
As far as my personal motivation, I--and most SWEs I know--don't really want to build the kinds of things people are using LLMs to build: audio players, billing software, whatever. I also don't think most backend apps, frontend apps, web frameworks, whatever should exist, and whether they were written by people or LLMs doesn't really factor in. More to the point, I think it's crazy that SWEs and tech workers generally make 8474x what other people make, and I think we've provided dubious value for that remittance, to say nothing of the investment, so knocking us down a peg would be putting things to rights. But, candidly, while I wouldn't love losing my job because of LLMs, I don't think that's happening writ large and I don't think it will happen to me specifically, at least not directly or any time soon. Maybe it matters to you that I don't make beaucoup bucks, maybe it doesn't. Anyway, do with all that what you will.
Kara Swisher has this great line--dunno if it's originally hers--where some social media person is going on about citizen journalists opening up news and how great it is, and she says that makes about as much sense as citizen surgeons. In the same vein, I don't think a person unaccustomed to designing complex systems should try, just like I don't think someone inexperienced at building a house or a car or a plane should try. I still think this even if we have a one-button mystery machine that play-doh's out an object that seems like it may actually fly a couple of people one town over, and even usually safely does. I think we oughta slap a huge fucking label on the side of that machine that says "we have no idea how this works, and we vouch for it not at all" (I've not yet been goaded into reading the ToS for OpenAI or Anthropic, thank Dark Lord Satan, but I would put $5 down that they assume no liability for anything their models do).
So my caveat, and the point of my post, curtly and regrettably expressed via analogy, is that people should feel free to build whatever they want, but they shouldn't build anything they'll seriously rely on. They won't know enough to verify that whatever they build is fit for purpose (and, sweet Satan give me strength, you can't just ask the LLM to verify it for you). Only experts can do that.
Also for color, I do own a table saw, as well as some others, which I used very (very, holy shit) unsafely to do a terrible finishing carpentry job on my house and some other odd jobs. My warning to all readers is Google how table saws can fuck you up, and do not ever stand behind the wood you are sawing because the blade can literally shoot it into you, or IDK at least shoot it at you really fast.
I also don't want all my backups to be in the same physical location. If I copy some files with zfs to another drive, I'd also like to check that there wasn't an error in the copying process. Maybe I can use zfs to make mirror images - which probably copies the hashes?
Yeah, I could use zfs to do some of this. But having a sidecar checksum database is easier to work with across filesystems. And Reed-Solomon error correction is able to correct bit rot much more cheaply than using physically duplicated drives. I wouldn't mind buying a mirror set a year or two ago, but storage is so expensive now.
Filesystems in general aren't very good at protecting against silent bitrot, since it doesn't happen that much on spinning copper. But it happens a lot more than we'd all like to admit on modern SSDs. And zfs doesn't support Reed-Solomon error correction.
Yea, with just a single drive it's not really a backup is it?
> If I copy some files with zfs to another drive, I'd also like to check that there wasn't an error in the copying process.
That's what rsync is for.
> I wouldn't mind buying a mirror set a year or two ago, but storage is so expensive now.
Prices went up, yes but not that much to be fair. And I think it mostly affected M2 disks.
Here's my very limited notes on HDD prices.
In 21 october 2023, a 22 TB disk cost me 0.37 SEK per gigabyte.
In 28 may 2026, a 26 TB disk cost me 0.36 SEK per gigabyte.
Both were WD red disks.
No? Then you are not qualified to say that other people are not qualified!
Do you see the absurdity of your position now?
(I mean, I guess as soon as you start whacking things together with a hammer, you technically sort of are being a carpenter, but that's not the point.)
I think whacking things together with a hammer is the act of building (however inexpertly) whereas carpenter (and other titles) convey something about expertise, mindset, or the intent to hone skills. The DIYer might or might not qualify as an amateur carpenter/electrician/plumber/whatever.
The best price I can find for a 24gb+ hard drive is $1250 AUD for a 24gb Seagate Barracuda drive, at my local computer store. They're a similar price on amazon. Amazon US has refurbed drives too, which are a little cheaper but not much.
$1250 for 24gb is $52AUD per gigabyte, or 353 Swedish Krona per gigabyte.
The claim I responded to was nothing but weak elitist gatekeeping. Such people should think really hard why they are how they are. It's ob obnoxious.
Here in the US; the head of HHS and DOD decided that flu vaccines were no longer mandatory; until the flu exploded on military bases. I am not taking a position here because I genuinely do not know what the answer to this is but I do think it is as important as it is interesting.
I many ways I think AI amplifies the "The Dunning-Kruger" by an order of magnitude; I think this could be one of the defining issue of our time.
If I choose to hire someone for a job, I really don't care how they got there. Be it self taught or through school or university.
Drawing a line always means you take away opportunity, which isn't yours to take.
They're all self-regulating professions with licensing bodies and professional standards?
Point is, if I give a person a calculator, it doesn't even make them the tiniest bit of a mathematician. Nor if I give them a pencil, either. The tool never, ever makes the tradesperson.
Whatever's happening with LLMs, it's not making people programmers. It's how you use the tool, which validates that.
It’s weird though, LLMs still don’t seem very good at magically enabling most non developers able to make software. I’ve tried with a couple people - mostly for curiosity’s sake. Even when they have pressing needs that software could solve, they’re really resistant to talking to the machine about them. Then they don’t know what to actually ask the ai to do. Regular people don’t seem to know what use cases are. Or what a design mockup is. They don’t know what a website is, or what the limitations are. The llm could help guide them through all of this, but the people I’ve sat down in front of the machine didn’t ask the machine to guide them through the process at all.
Of course, if you only know how to vibe code, that doesn’t make you an engineer. But I’m no longer convinced that LLMs make developers pointless. If anything, so far they seem to make our skills much more valuable. With LLMs, I can get a lot of low quality work done quickly if that’s what the project calls for.
AI doesn't make you an expert. Or even a professional in any field. First, AI is terrible at cogent work, without someone driving it. And even if you do get it to do all the work, then that's not you doing it.
"Hi, I asked a coder friend to write an app, I'm a developer", nope!
I sure do.
Entirely possible.
>Feel free to try again.
Feel free to add clarification.