M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years(en.wikipedia.org) |
M-DISC – DVD/Blu-ray compatible discs that may last up to 1000 years(en.wikipedia.org) |
The discs sold as M-Discs now are actually just MABL BD-R's. They used to have a 'stone' data layer. Now they use a titanium metal data layer. MABL discs were always designed to last for about 100 years, and are orders of magnitude cheaper.
100 years is long enough, and 1000 years was always a wild-ass theoretical abstraction. The point is that you'll be dead before your disc is. If the next generation cares and drives are still available they can copy it to a new source.
These same discs are sold with a "Guarantee" as archival discs that are tested with heat/stress to last that 100 years, but any MABL disc really should,and they're much cheaper if you just get regular MABL discs. I think Pioneer is one of the big brands making the archival discs, or at least branding them. I last had to import mine from Japan. If you check the disc ID though, you'll see that archival discs are literally the same disc you can by cheaper without that label.
Some M-Discs still have a proprietary disc label, but my understanding is that even those just come off the same lines.
Some reading:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/yu4j1u/psa_ver...
https://blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseeli... (search for verbatim and note the manufacturer column)
> Verbatim clarified that these discs were advancements. The technical changes resulted in a different appearance and the ability for higher burning speeds, the changed media-ID was due to an adaptation with regard to other Verbatim products. Verbatim had already shipped the first modified media in early 2022. The data security of the new discs is not inferior to that of the old discs: Data should also last 1000 years, according to the manufacturer.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs". Verbatim used to be owned by Mitsubishi Chemical Media, and was sold to CMC Magnetics in 2020. The only two manufacturers I see on that page for Verbatim discs are Mitsubishi Chemical Media and CMC Magnetics.
Even verbatim's own website no longer makes the thousand year claim. Saying instead "several hundred years".
However their website also claims that the disc's use "etched" stone-like data layers, which is also demonstrably not true. Their own marketing says titanium in other places (on the spindle insert).
I think that Verbatim (or their shambling post-buyout animated corpse) just lies a lot or is filled with confusion about their own product.
https://www.verbatim.com/en/m-disc/products/43847-m-disc-bd-...
> I'm not sure what you mean by "Verbatim just slaps their brand on other people's discs".
I wasn't aware of the chain of ownership. That said, they literally sell the same disc identifier as both m-disc and non m-disc.
I don't think it's just a reused ID either. If you put them next each other they're identical, and they use the same media label. The old disc's were both visually distinct and had a unique ID.
The only difference zeems to be packaging. I don't doubt that it's the same quality.
They stopped selling the much worse LTH discs and all the disc's are good now.
M-disc buyers get what they pay for (if they expect 100 years rather than 1000), it's just that everyone else also gets that for less money.
Verbatim / Millenniata loves to conflate claims about the original DVD M-DISC and the later BD-R M-DISC. But unlike DVD-R, standard BD-R already don't use organic dyes (with the exception of some low grade "LTH" discs). AFAIK there has never been good evidence that the BD-R M-DISCs have any special sauce compared to any other non-M-DISC BD-R. (Strengthened by the fact that there have never been compatibility issues or special equipment requirements to read/write M-DISC BD-R.)
For things recorded today, nobody will care about refreshing for 75 heads, and if during 2100-2125 there are some budget constraints/wars/whatnot, the data will rot.
With 1000 years, you can just throw stuff into a bunker and all that it will take will be for someone in a period of 2800-3025 to take the time to refresh the library. 200 years should be enough to wait through a mild civ collapse or something.
Sure we’re talking about times beyond our lifetimes, but a lot if things we are sorrounded by were planned by people who knew they wouldn’t live to see the outcomes.
Isn't that the case with all Western manufacturers these days? They buy stuff from China and slap their label on it. Management has no affinity with engineering and technology, all they know is marketing.
The software will be an issue before the hardware anyway inevitably
By the above comment's reasoning, you wouldn't invest in hardware because you'll lack the software, and then you wouldn't invest in the software because you'll lack the hardware.
Coincidentally I just bought one, they’ve doubled in price now recently.
Also bought some M-Discs to try. They’re half the price in Japan (Amazon) compared to Germany.
If, instead, we are talking about some human disaster and, that constant copies is lost at some point, we're kind of stuck. I don't think the technology to read those disks will exist either, even though in theory, yes, that could be done. It would be a massive reverse engineering effort and I don't think they will even know to start doing that with these weird disks that the agents had.
If you want something archived for a thousand years, well, we know that clay tablets baked worked, although we sometimes can't read the letters but at least seeing something with the eyes says there's something and if there's enough of them we have decoded language.
The best archival paper in ideal conditions lasts more than a thousand years, but in more typical storage, we can't store paper that long. Paper has only been stored successfully in Egypt for that long. I'm sure there are other deserts though that would count just as well.
But that doesn't mean that it will stick around.
History shows that when we figure out a better way to do stuff, we tend use the new way going forward and the old stuff tends to get forgotten.
That, of course, didn’t actually happen. However, I had the same files backed up on a WD MyBook of the same vintage, which was properly parked and stored in an antistatic bag.
The stuff sat in a storage locker — the DVD-Rs in a binder, and the MyBook in its original packaging — for close to two decades.
I finally pulled it all out recently to see what was still recoverable. I figured the discs probably wouldn’t work, but the MyBook would be fine.
In fact, it was exactly the opposite. Every disc read perfectly, but the MyBook wouldn’t even initalize. Ping-ping-ping-thunk.
It’s amazing how unpredictable storage devices can be.
Read: discs could be bad on day 1. Or mostly ok but with some corrupted files in there. But user didn't check, notice or even care. Decades of storage don't improve anything (other than the data not being needed anyway).
For stuck mechanical disks I remember a modest bump to the side with a screwdriver handle was sometimes enough to get it going.
Magnetic tape storage is designed to last decades or more and is cheap to boot. Audio master tapes from 50, 60 and even 70 years ago are still perfectly playable if proper precautions are taken (i.e. baking them in an oven beforehand).
How many people are storing data on a medium and throwing it into storage for hundreds of years? I don't think even the U.S. government does that.
From what I understand, Verbatim no longer manufactures true M-DISC media. https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/1i0ky6v/what_h...
It's all just MABL now.
The relative obscurity of the format, the drama around Verbatim's acquisition and the dwindling options for a Blu-Ray player ultimately keep me from investing in it.
Honestly, I'd love a shelf-stable storage mechanism that isn't tape.
There is a lot of work to do, but I am actually intellectually interested in realistically understanding how the far future can deal with interpreting the digital dark ages that we currently live in now which are completely forgotten because the administrators stopped copying data one day.
I believe these discs are made by transferring materials by vaporizing them in a series of big vacuum chambers, maybe those materials are toxic and/or China dominated and nobody wants to deal with them anymore?
I learned:
* Standard BDXL: ~$6/disc / M-Disc BDXL: ~$12 (longer lasting)
* Write/verify to 100GB BDXL discs at 4x is ~2 mins/GB.
* TFA says "128 GB BDXL never made it to market due to the 2016 bankruptcy" but a larger reason is that even though 128GB ( 4 vs 3 layer) was in the standard, it wasn't well-characterized. Turns out adding the fourth laser was harder/costlier than expected and read reliability was poorer. 100GB 3 layer is the sweet spot.
What's particularly interesting though is that, as hard drive and SSD prices continue to surge, and consumer interest in optical formats dwindles, blu-ray can now be cheaper per GB than HDD.
For recording and forgetting, I recently played with LTO, again.
But I always end up at local HDD + remote AWS Glacier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_National_Archives_vault_f...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire
Also related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myspace#Music
On March 18, 2019, it was revealed that Myspace had lost all of its user content from launch until 2015 in a botched server migration with no backup. Over 50 million songs and 12 years' worth of content were permanently lost.[102] In April 2019, the Internet Archive recovered 490,000 MP3s "using unknown means by an anonymous academic study conducted between 2008 and 2010". The songs, which were uploaded between 2008 and 2010, are collectively known as the "MySpace Dragon Hoard".[103]I think CDs and DVDs largely died because of USB devices. I have like a 10cm x 15cm external harddisc. So it is not that expensive and can store 5TB of data. It also won't last forever but that is not so important; if it lasts +10 years that's already fine. Usually you may then purchase a cheaper new device, that probably then has more storage too. And you may have some backup devices too. CDs and DVDs in this context are not very convenient, a bit like how they replaced the older floppy devices (oddly enough I liked floppy discs more than CDs and DVDs, in particular the ones you could twist, they also would fly like crazy through the air; the smaller harder floppy discs were also nice, I remember them from the Amiga days, but the flexible ones were epic. Storage devices today are much better but nowhere near as fun).
citation needed. My DVD/Blu-ray writer does not support M-DISC
> may last up to 1000 years
or may not. Who knows ?
Apparently original M-Disc DVDs required a more powerful laser than normal, but that is not the case for Blu-Ray.
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/new-m-disc-to-pro...
I ran Linux backups on BD-XL 100GB discs for awhile. I lacked access to space in a salt mine, and the M-DISC media was prohibitively expensive, and unnecessary, since the Linux system, its drives, and its backups have all gone away by now. And nothing of value was lost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC#History
As of the 2020s, there are only 2 licensed manufacturers of M-Discs: Ritek, sold under the Ritek and RiDATA brands, and Verbatim with co-branded discs, marketed as the "Verbatim M-DISC".[14][15]Any bluray reader will work to read tho.
Large storage hyperscalers or whatever just use tape?
I can't wait for tape patents to expire.
I used to give people data on a disc -- first floppies, then CD-R, and eventually DVD-R. It got the job done, was often much faster than sorting out how to do it over the network (especially if they were already standing right there), and it was cheap-enough.
For a long time, when I wanted to carry some data from A to B, I'd just put it on some manner of round disc and take it with me. It worked well.
I'd also use them for local data storage at times when they were cheaper than on-line spinny-rust storage. Lots of us here remember having floppy disk indexes and stacks/binders of optical discs. (Some of us still have them.)
But it's been years since I've done anything at all with a disc and I never found a compelling-enough use for BD-R to begin with.
My car has two optical drives right there in the dashboard and I have no idea if either of them can play a CD or DVD full of MP3s. It also has a USB port for mass storage, bluetooth, an aux input, and HDMI (which I'll use I ever feel like getting around to making a lossless digital-domain streamer with librespot). I'm surprised to find myself stating that I'm not motivated at all to see if it can play an MP3 from a disc, but the lack of this motivation is real.
I feel remiss in saying that I don't recall the last time I saw my stash of new CD-Rs although I do think that I know exactly where the last spindle of DVD-R blanks is located.
I think I've even got a USB optical drive somewhere that I scored for free, and I suppose that it would work, but I've never actually used it. For anything, at all. I've had it for years.
---
It seems obvious to say, but: I just do a lot of that stuff over the network these days. When I want to give someone some data, I just email it to them as an attachment -- even if they're standing right there. If it's a lot of data, I can upload it to Google Drive or ye olde Dropbox or something, and share it from there.
Or, pocket supercomputers: If two of us are using our new-fangled pocket computers and want to combine our high-res photos and videos at the end of an outing, stuff like Quick Share on Android (or Apple's AirDrop) can automatically stand up a fast, private, bespoke, temporary 802.11AX network in an instant and get that done at blazing speed without using any wires or external media at all.
When I still want to carry "a lot" of data from A to B, then: I've got thumb drives ranging from a few gigabytes to a half-terabyte. The latter holds the same as 20 single-layer BD-Rs, or ~100 DVD-Rs and is much friendlier to deal with.
For hoarding data at home, I just use hard drives. They're online. They're automatically snapshotted with ZFS to help prevent my own errors from deleting or corrupting stuff accidentally. The replaceable bits are replaceable. The more-unique bits also use RAIDZ2 and are additionally backed up every night with restic to somewhere else in the universe.
I really should add another copy (maybe using a tidy Raspberry Pi system on a shelf in a friend's workshop or something), and that copy really should use an independent backup method, but it's Good Enough and doesn't involve a single optical disc.
---
It's still easy-enough to buy new optical blanks if I wanted them for something, and I used to use quite a lot of them...but I just don't want to use them at all anymore.
I've moved on.
Or the technology is inherently expensive, but I can't believe that is true.
> The disc itself does have a printable white top, but also features branding in the centre consisting of areas of clear hub. The underside looks pretty much the same as a normal BD-R, being metallic chocolate brown in colour. It is visually indistinguishable.
...
> This bought me to a realization – unlike DVD’s, almost all regular BD-R discs do not use organic dye recording layers. Only BD-R LTH type discs do, and they have been shown to have poor longevity. With one of the main reasons for causing disc failure no longer an issue, it seems possible that this disc is not materially special compared to a regular BD-R.
The review also mentions that the text on the disc packaging quotes a lifetime of several hundred years, so that hasn't changed either. The actual M-Disc testing certification mentioned in the review quotes a 95% CI expected lifetime of 530 years and a mean expected lifetime of 1,000 years (meaning only half the discs can be expected to last that long).
M-Disc isn't an open standard, so the criteria for what is and isn't an M-Disc aren't publicly known. I think it's entirely possible that standard inorganic BD-Rs pass whatever criteria are necessary to call something an "M-Disc", and that there's never been any real difference between a high quality BD-R and an M-Disc BD-R.
Otherwise you quickly run into connectivity / driver / application / OS compatibility hassles trying to get even 10-20 year old stuff from our own lifetime experience to run.
I'm not sure how we expect our great-grandchildren to figure out how to get data off a disc/drive in 100 years.
I can look at a film strip or print from my grandfather or play his records more easily than I can run software from my own childhood.
More likely it will just hallucinate content that plausibly could be on the disc and display that for the unwitting
You should locally encrypt 100% of the information you store on someone else's system with strong symmetric encryption. In fact, I think Amazon's legal team would quietly prefer that you do this.
Dumping a bunch of bare files named things like:
THE.ODYSSEY.2026.2160p.WEB-DL.DDP5.1.DV.HDR.H.265-GROUP.mkv
(But yes - regardless of what it is, encrypt it)
The British Domesday Book from 1086 is still referenced by historians for all sorts of purposes:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book
Not sure what kind of present-day data the historians of the future would be interested in.
> If you want something archived for a thousand years, well, we know that clay tablets baked worked […] The best archival paper in ideal conditions lasts more than a thousand years, but in more typical storage, we can't store paper that long.
Well, paper would best be stored in a fairly dry place, so deserts may be a starting point.
Generally the only institutions / organizations that have managed to survive for centuries / millennia have been monasteries. Temples/churches have often been close to communities for public worship, but most religious traditions seem to have groups of individuals that were a bit more 'removed' from society at large. Organizing around such things could be attempted (a plot point in Stephenson's Anathem.)
Generally burying stuff and leaving clues so that an 'advanced enough' society can unbury it at some point may be another idea.
Burrowing stuff sometimes works, however, a lot is lost. Even when we attempt to save things, it often doesn't work. Some years ago a town near me had a big unburying of a vault they had saved for 50 years. In there was a brand new car complete with gas in case gasoline was obsolete in 2000. The gas was stale and unusable. The car was completely rusted the point where it couldn't be restored. The only answer that you can be confident of storing something is if someone every few years personally looks at it and verifies it is still in good shape and if not repairs it. Archaeologists can learn a lot from garbage and trash that was buried with no attempt to save it. However, archaeologists are also very aware of the limitations of what they can get. There is a lot they know they don't know because, well, this would not have been saved or been preserved.
Sometimes, and sometimes we have the originals. And to make a copy, you need an original, and sometimes the copies were made >100 years after the original.
> Burrowing stuff sometimes works, however, a lot is lost. Even when we attempt to save things, it often doesn't work.
So let's not even try, much less try to solve this reliability problem.
We also need a mechanism that outlasts that archival lifespan so how to read Discs or Masked ROMs and how to interpret them, also needs to be stored as well. Repairing electronics is a valuable skill that needs to be passed on across generations as well.
Keeping humans around seems to be the best bet, given how things are going, I wouldn't count on the present set of beings around to preserve any of this information that well either.
For what? Nothing we do today will be even remotely important in 1,000 years. Any tiny fraction of a fraction that is important will have been copied thousands, millions, or billions of times into various formats.
"I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
All sort of things done a thousand years ago still shape how we live today:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta
* https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/2187985.The_Origins_o...
* https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3624887-the-medieval-ori...
Who knows what the actions of a single, seemingly inconsequential, individual could trigger:
The irony of quoting the work of a poet who died over 200 years ago is thick.
We have a bunch of family photos that were preserved for a few generations. It sucks, many of them we know who they are, the most are lost to time and the death of memory.
Pictures without the context are just images of dead people. With the story, they are priceless memories.
I don't disagree that a few things that happen today will be of consequence. I disagree that any single source of that data needs to last for a thousand years in isolation.
There are, I'm sure, one or two examples of thousand+ year old primary sources revealing otherwise lost information that was still relevant in some way. I suspect not many, other than as datum for academics to ponder.
Important information has always survived by copying.
> Dating from the 3rd century BCE to the 1st century CE, the Dead Sea Scrolls include the oldest surviving manuscripts of entire books later included in the various Jewish and Christian biblical canons, including deuterocanonical manuscripts from late Second Temple Judaism, as well as extrabiblical books. As such, they cast new light on the emergence of Rabbinic Judaism and of Christianity, and their relationship with Jewish religious traditions.
One could similarly imagine a set of M-Discs from today that would be rediscovered 1000 years from now that could prove similarly useful to the people of the future thanks to data on them that has been preserved unaltered since today until then on that set of M-Discs.