Language War - Scala versus Python (Part 2)

Language War - Scala versus Python (Part 2)(blog.zlemma.com)

28 points by zubinmehta 13 years ago | 25 comments

jaxytee 13 years ago |

"Yes, Scala has Lift but it can’t match the maturity of Django. This overrode the benefits of some of the other libraries/tools that Scala/Java have on offer. Python gets ahead again: 2-1."

How does one come to the conclusion that the maturity of an 8 year old web framework, beats out the benefits of the almost 20 year old battle tested Java ecosystem. Not to mention the Scala Ecosystem is included as Icing on the JVM cake. OP also compared Lift to Django. How does OP not mention Play? Although an argument about the better of the two would be based strictly on opinion, from my view Play has more momentum in the race for the premier Scala Web Framework.

omaranto 13 years ago | |

Wait, are you comparing the ages of Django and Java? Wouldn't it be fairer to compare the ages of Python and Java? Python is about four years older than Java.

jaxytee 13 years ago | | |

I'm referring to the comparison made by OP.

zubinmehta 13 years ago | |

We were merely in search of a good web framework. Java has battletested libraries but so does python and a lot of other general programming languages. It still isn't answering our core question. A decision on what web framework to use has much more to do with the framework itself(its philosophy and community) than with the language it is built in.

Coming to django, I would argue that it is the best documented project on this planet! Django has a huge number of plugins, quickens the process, and is based on some amazing philosophies(DRY) and you happen to admire what a big deal it is when you go deep into design of your web app.

Also, I can even argue that I can get a programmer who doesn't know python to start on Django in 4 hours. Now, I wouldn't bank on this point as it is a language ecosystem point, but it is a true fact, happened to me some years ago.

Lift, is cherry picking features from django/rails, which is actually a good thing, but I see it being a lot less progressive as compared to Django even at the scale at which Django is right now.

Play, I haven't used, so cannot argue much on that. I think Play2 is less than a year old? Surely, I cannot let my startup developers write more bytes than necessary. Why code something which is already done and that is precisely what happened with us when we started working with Django. Well tested libraries can be pip installed.

m501 13 years ago | | |

Play is definitely more akin to django than lift is. Lift, as I've read not experienced, has specific philosophy for how to build web apps that is slightly different than django or play.

I'm a long time django user. I love django. I've used it in production apps. I like to try out new languages as a hobby and so I got myself the programming in scala and the Play framework in action (manning). Just trying out Play however I can't seem to get this feeling that I could do it more easily and faster in django, though that may be because I'm comfortable with django and python. There are also a ton of django apps that I can leverage to build out parts of my app. I'm not sure about the play ecosystem in that respect.

I'm also specifically looking for advantages that the language itself can bring but since I haven't gotten very far I haven't discovered any yet but I'm hopeful that I will be pleasantly surprised.

Having said all that I just saw some play love coming from LinkedIn: http://engineering.linkedin.com/play/play-framework-linkedin

mjt0229 13 years ago | | |

Er. If your startup developers can't write more bytes than necessary, why are you publicly doing a shoot-out? You clearly can't afford to explore all reasonable options. You're wasting everyone's time if by cherry picking outdated Scala frameworks to compare to the state-of-the-art Python frameworks.

lmm 13 years ago | |

The Java ecosystem is not terribly usable from Scala - even if you can call all the methods, it's not idiomatic, it will expect Java collection types etc. And few of the worthwhile parts of Java's libraries are 20 years old.

You can build cool stuff in scala + e.g. wicket, I've done it, but there's an extra layer of awkwardness to deal with that doesn't exist with python/django.

willismichael 13 years ago | | |

Could you further explain why calling Java methods from Scala is not idiomatic? I have virtually no real exposure to Scala, but a decent amount of Clojure experience. I've found in my pet Clojure project that it's not really painful to wrap up calls to Java libraries in idiomatic clojure (in fact I'm writing the graphics renderer in Java for performance). Does Scala really make it that much trouble to call Java methods?

cover_drive 13 years ago | |

Are you suggesting that we should go with Lift/Play instead of Django? If so, can you elaborate on your argument? As you can tell from the article, I'd love to see Scala beat Python, but I can't see Scala scoring over Python on the web framework front.

jaxytee 13 years ago | | |

I'm not in a postion to suggest what web framework your team should go with. I think that depends on the development taste and needs of your team. My main purpose was to point out the oversite of the Play Framework in the orignal article. FYI the only interest I have in pushing Play is that of a Scala developer who has tried Play and Lift. I found Play to be more approachable and modern. Especially for developers with MVC framework experience.

Avshalom 13 years ago | |

Most of the Java ecosystem you'd be using is not 20 years old.

jaxytee 13 years ago | | |

On that same note, most of the Django ecosystem isn't as mature as Django either. What point are your trying to make?

cover_drive 13 years ago |

Regarding the last point, what's the latest & greatest in vim support for Scala?

zubinmehta 13 years ago | |

Anything vim, I follow derekwyatt - https://github.com/derekwyatt/vim-scala

rjp 13 years ago |

Have you looked at Clojure?