I'm tired(andymoore.ca) |
That male at the table needs to have his balls removed for such a statement.
He may be male, but he isn't a man. A real man wouldn't behave like that.
Edit: OK, maybe having his balls removed is excessive. He is mocking a womens anatomy and the reverse would make him feel good. i.e saying he got into GDC because of his testicles isn't the same type of insult as the female getting in for her "tits". So this isn't an argument that levels the playing field.
Perhaps he is just a socially awkward human being that doesn't respect women. Someday he will cross the wrong path and insult the wrong women and then I guess Karma kicks in?
Edit 2: Thanks everyone for pointing about that I was indeed going overboard with the removal of anatomy phrase. Overboard from being outraged people still act like this and in front of a table full of people.
You're not scoring any magical man points with a comment like this.
Maybe him being a dick in front of people at the table is enough to help change him.
Thanks for your point.
Please desist.
Would it had been better if I said he needs to "have his mouth washed out with soap" like a 5 year old?
Seriously. To tell me he doesn't deserve a similar treatment to what he displayed to the female is naive. He needs to know that what he did is not excusable and wont be tolerated.
It is not the wild west anymore.
it was intended to display outrage with the situation and how someone can act like that, blatantly.
Noted. Still was.
You can't possibly imagine that calling for mutilating someone isn't inflammatory. Can you? (Your discussion of 'real men' aside, which is a fight I don't feel like having, much like OP!)
His behavior is 100% unacceptable. Yours isn't, either. "An eye for an eye" doesn't help anyone be better, and education, not feel-good attacks, is the goal.
You are perpetuating the problem. Stop.
Isn't perpetuation of the problem double edged? Those that make those comments dont accept education without having a reason to. Those that try and convey that reasoning, if they do it in a similar manner, are accused of perpetuation. So how does one make someone understand what they did without giving them a does of what it feels like?
How do you educate better?
Tell the person to fuck off.
I'm serious. It registers disagreement, and to any rational person the lack of interest in attempting serious discussion. Ideal? No. Preferable to inaction? Absolutely. Plus where do you even start with a comment like that? I'd prefer to make it clear that I'm shocked than do someone who would say that the favor of jumping into a thoughtful discussion about how the merits of their opinion.
Like it or not the hackerverse is full of people who deemphasize social experiences in favour of other things. When someone makes a comment this inappropriate in public you're not just battling their sexism, you're going up against years of personality developed in an insular environment. I've known quite a few devs whose only social interaction in a year is GDC, barring a few friends of theirs who are like minded. They are awkward and inexperienced, and 360 days a year this is reinforced and tit jokes get laughs all round. Going up against that, I can really empathize with the authors central point. I'm tired.
The situation shows an active effort in eschewing societal norms. You have to work hard to shut down the mental filter that normally prevents you from making such an off-kilter remark
Tell the guy to fuck off, and if he doesn't immediately apologise then call a waiter over and ask them to find him a table on his own somewhere because he's no longer welcome at this one.
Surely decent human beings don't meekly sit back and let bullying happen like that?
Statement made, stupid comment brushed off, nobody got hurt.
The whole "down to their level and beat you with experience" thing comes to mind.
It grinds conversations to a halt. "I disagree, but.." doesn't register shock. That's not the kind of language people use when they witness horror, or abuse. It's not emotional. If anything, if I was at the table and that was your reaction I'd probably take it to mean that your primary takeaway is to be annoyed at pesky sexism and how these unfortunate jock-types ruin it for the rest of us.
That's not how you'd respond to abuse. This is abuse.
Fuck you registers shock, and anger. It's not a naughty word, it's a tool. I think there's an appropriate time to use language like this, and I think this is it. I definitely don't see it as "coming down to their level", with all due respect I find that kind of absurd.
One thing to keep on mind - the "offender" has given up any expectation or right of politeness or manners extended towards them - there's no need to craft a response that doesn't hurt their feelings, since they've already gone down that path. (I suspect if I were just the right amount of uninhibitedly drunk, I'd quite enjoy responding to "She only got the tickets 'cause of her tits" with "Yeah, that's what everyone with a tiny dick says…")
I would ask the offending person to leave. If they refused to leave, I would encourage all of my friends to leave.
Such a statement is so beyond-the-pale inexcusable that simply stating your opposition is insufficient. While I agree you don't need to "go down to their level", I see no reason to allow them any more of my time than is absolutely required (i.e. time spent organizing my friends' departure and paying for the check).
"What you just said disgusts me" seems more fitting. You're communicating how it is personally affecting you. That can't be argued.
Okay, I may get many downvotes here, but this doesn't seem like the solution to the problem. Rudeness and insults are rudeness and insults. Cursing doesn't help the matter.
Inaction is not the solution either, but I'm sure there's a more mature way to handle things. Asking the party to leave politely is better than keeping your mouth shut, and it also seems better than cursing them out.
Of course, if they refuse to behave, then tell them the magic words.
Fuck off.
And really, this is not just a problem of some guy saying something kind of sexist. It's a guy who thinks the scales are so much in his favor that he can just say such a thing to a stranger without really offending people. He's not beyond hope, but he's not someone you should break bread with without making clear at he was completely out of line.
Edit: I'm not helping much with the OP's guilt trip...it's never easy thinking about what you should've done when the shock was over. The OP shouldn't chastise himself for not throwing a punch or making some other dramatic stand. But leaving out of protest is always an option. If it makes the troll and everyone who decided to stay feel awkward, well, that's their decision.
For me, there are certain traits and ways of thinking that I just can't tolerate. In some cases, I can tolerate those beliefs if the person is able to keep them locked up when I'm around. Usually this person is smart enough to know a certain belief if controversial or similar and knows when to keep quiet.
Some people know when to keep quiet, some people don't. Some people can swear like a sailor when drinking with friends at a private location but have the good sense not to do the same when out at a family location on a normal day.
People probably can't / won't change. Discussion and arguments won't do it. Even if you could change a person, it's not worth the effort for you to try. It's best to just cut the cord right there and move on with your life.
Most of the people in her group shared the same reaction: they were surprised and defended her. I realize that ladies have it tough in our industry, but it's not a 50:50 men vs women war.
When you're in a jam like that, there isn't much you can do. You don't engage them. When someone says shit like that, you just ignore them. Or change the subject. Or leave. As the author said herself ... she isn't a confrontational person. Most women aren't. So, you just drop it and walk away. I do it all the time. I have no patience for stupid people, regardless of their gender.
Perhaps I'm now over compensating, but I became "that guy" who always speaks up. That time, I was so shocked, I didn't know how to respond. Replaying it in my head over and over, now I don't need to hesitate when it happens again.
Note: you're not persuading the antagonist. Screw him. By speaking up, you're putting him and everyone on else on notice that pathological behavior will not be tolerated.
A year or two back, we had a guest female speaker at a local user group. I felt that she wasn't being given the same level of respect afforded every other speaker. People talked over her, interrupted her, etc.
So I said something. I pissed some people off. Others laughed at me.
But next time we had a female speaker, EVERYONE was super courteous. They even joked that if anyone was rude, Specialist (me) would bring on the hurt.
My advice to Andy Moore, and everyone, is to learn from his experience, and prepare for the next time, until such time that the trogs realize they can keep their sexism, racist, hatred, etc to themselves.
The guy who was making sexist statements is ignorant, not a "fucking loser."
How do you make these situations positive for everyone?
Empathy. Empathy for all sides.
Everyone exposed to this kind of social ignorance is a victim if you dig deep enough.
In the tech world we are quick to call users idiots, each other inept, ideas retarded...
I ask for empathy.
Empathy for this offensive guy who most likely grew up intimidated by social situations. He was picked on and bullied, and never grew past it. If I ventured a guess, I'd say he's still in pain, and still not sure how to act due to years of relative social isolation. He is simply ignorant of the effect of his actions. He literally knows no other ways to relate.
Calling him names makes us no different from him, or the people who encouraged his social isolation. Do you think shaming him will convince him we're right? He'll just view us as "another bully" and continue his anti-social behavior.
Encouraging growth through understanding, not through social imposition or public shaming is how we resolve these situations positively.
On the other hand, I was kinda waiting for the twitpic to go with the story.
Some guy talking about how he's totally on side but somehow is unable to keep himself from commenting on her breasts; presumably he subscribes to the idea that if you can pretend to be ironic, you can still say it. Classic stuff.
1. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachable_moment#section_3
Hmm. Why haven't I seen a single woman post an article about this issue? I'm tired of all the me-tooism from men about this subject. Yes, sexism is abhorrent fallacy, but inverse-sexism is still sorta sexism -- enough with the White Knights, already.
Not to defend the guy who made some joke about tits, but I look forward to the day when we can be more than humorless automatons regarding this issue. Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgqUQ17sYm0
No yelling or arguing or rational reasoning: People like that guy just need to understand simply and clearly that it is not acceptable.
It's an aggregation of stories from people working in the service industry who have horror stories to tell from the customers they serviced. If you read through a few stories you might pick up on a anomaly that seems to pervade. Particularly any story from the "Awesome Customers" category.
For some stories we see normal, self-righteous, mildly ignorant, comical behavior, typical of human beings in general I would say. Other stories have this strange, caricature, like quality about them. People come off like comic book villains, cackling maniacally as they monologue about how demographic X is inferior in way Y. They say statements which are way beyond the pale of current society, and in these stories one brave individual stands against their unwavering ignorance in a triumphant display, shaming the villain.
I think you'll pick up on it as well. These stories are fantasies. Spirited teenagers imagining themselves slaying the ignorance and wrong-doings of their bigoted elders, and reporting it as if it actually happened for the mass approval of people on Facebook.
This story has such a quality about it.
93 points and counting.
But these are the kinds of people you don't want to hire.
This isn't necessarily "firing offense." It is "fireable offense" and if you aren't sweating through your talk with HR you are messed up.
And if your company doesn't have an HR department: congratulations, now they need one.
She didn't speak up, either?
To paraphrase - she tried to make the witty comeback but was talked over, and part of the point is this isn't isolated, she gets rape threats every game release; can you imagine how wearing that is?
She suggests that others also need to speak up - a quick "Not cool, dude" to anyone who behaves like this.
seriously, the internet is a big rape threat. are there any smart people that treat random anon trolling seriously? (except opportunists and journalists that by occasion use such crap as a 'proof' of whatever)
When you are intellectually advanced to the point where sexist jokes simply make you want to rip out the throat of the party saying them, you begin to realize that disrespect for women is not only illogical but very perverse. Telling someone they have "good tits" is not funny or even sexy to the party that it is said to.
It's a fucking disgrace to humanity. Not only is it objectifying, but it's insulting, rude, and so incredibly improper.
I thought we had reached the point where our minds found others attractive based upon intelligence, and not on physical appearance. I thought we had reached the point where sexism had all but disappeared.
Of course, as I always am, I was wrong.
This is quite frankly getting ridiculous. I don't tell women anything about their physical appearance, unless I've known them for a long time; which is when an "You're a very beautiful person" may be appropriate.
I know many others that go by the same maxim. It's a shame some men haven't matured enough to behave.
Last night was the end of an amazing GDC trip. A handful of remaining friends and I made a journey out to JapanTown and we had an amazing meal. It was a great way to end the trip.
One of my friends, and a fellow game developer, was there for dinner. Her trip to GDC was planned last-minute, thanks to someone obtaining her a (very expensive!) all-access pass.
When recounting this chain of events, a male game developer at the table said that she only got the GDC pass “because of her tits.”
The table largely responded with aghast looks and silence. It was brought up that perhaps her ticket was thanks to being an award-winning game developer.
The same male responded with the ever-classy “sure, award winning tits.”
Defenses and arguments tried to be brought up, but conversation quickly moved on with the men talking over the woman until she just sat there quietly and resigned.
I’m posting about this because this shit has to stop.
I’m posting about this because I was silent when I should have spoken up. I shouldn’t have let the conversation sweep this transgression under the rug.
I’m posting this because I am tired of being made complicit (due to inaction) when these things happen. I’m tired of having to yell at people for this shit every night at GDC. I’m tired because I want this to end, and I’m tired of having this conversation over and over again.
I’m tired of feeling like shit because I don’t have enough energy to defend my friends every fucking DAY.
I’m terrified of losing friends over this.
I’m not a very confrontational person. Usually I deal with shit like this by making a mental note to avoid the person in the future. And now that my friends’ feelings are hurt and people are accusing me of inaction and being a bad person because of it, I feel like my last few years of championing anti-harassment policies (and ENFORCING them) doesn’t even matter.
It sucks that my entire personality can be judged on my last exchange.
So, hey: if you are a sexist ass around me, and think it’s just ironic meta-humour, know that it’s hurting me. It hurts me for days, weeks, months afterwards. It hurts my friends. It hurts my business. It makes me less creative, it makes me want to just hide in my basement all day. It makes me not want to go to GDC again.
If I don’t tell this to your face it’s probably because I’m tired of having this exchange this week. It makes me feel angry, upset, and sad. I hope someone links you to this.
And if you’re going to write me to apologize, you’d sure as shit better apologize to the actual people you pissed on first.
I’m so tired.
He doesn't. He might try to direct the conversation to more agreeable matters. He certainly doesn't draw attention to the offense and impress it indelibly in the minds of the others.
Generally, you are better off improving your own behavior than that of others. As Dale Carnegie pointed out, it's not only more profitable; it's less dangerous.
There's a real story of discrimination here - against the woman who was insulted.
"I’m terrified of losing friends over this." - so you're against discrimination only to the extent that it doesn't negatively impact your life. This is meaningless.
0_o
Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a template here[0].
I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win. That's your dinner. This isn't like high school where you can just up and walk away and get whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch last Tuesday, OMG! Handle it like a grown person.
This is important: TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY CLINGING TO POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM. Your being polite enables them. Think about that. Just don't get it wrong and draw down on a harmless comment that you misunderstood.
I would probably try to make him leave first, but failing that, walking away is the appropriate choice. You are passing judgment, in a way, on the whole party when you do this. You are saying that this behavior is not acceptable in your company and if the present company disagrees then this is important enough for you to remove yourself from that company because it is not something you can tolerate.
We cannot force people to be polite or even tolerant. We can choose who we keep company with.
It can happen. It takes some guts and if you don't have the social capital with this group you may not be able to pull it off. Everyone goes to a new table but leaves the dickhead sitting there.
Sure there is. You can switch majors. Or quietly put your resume out in a different industry. Go somewhere your superiors and peers actually give a shit about whether people are treating you horribly.
What do you think happened to all the women who aren't programmers?
If the broken person wishes to change, he can. He can ask for help. I hope this wasn't a cry for help because it got lost.
However, signalling that his behavior is not OK is important for everyone else at the table. Maybe there is some naive young guy sitting there who didn't think the jerk's comment was okay, but without seeing any kind of sanction he may start thinking "oh, that's how I'm supposed to talk to be respected." Make sure that he doesn't end up thinking that. It's also important for the person who was insulted, of course.
We do know that after hearing what other people had to say, he insisted on his sexist remark. He had a chance to reflect on it, and exhibited no remorse or apprehension. That kind of behavior doesn't deserve empathy, it deserves harsher correction and condemnation by his peers. Letting a situation like that slide only says, "If you insist enough, people actually shut up because they're agreeing with you or don't think it matters enough to merit dissent." Silence is just as bad as agreement in a case like this.
This guy doesn't need a kindergarten-level explanation of why it's not nice to tell a lady she got where she is "because of her tits" -- he needs someone to tell him to cut the crap because it won't be tolerated.
In my opinion, you've missed one very important detail. He's only getting "called names" in response to his "offensive guy" actions. Nobody involved in this conversation would have said a single word, good _or_ bad about the guy, except for the fact that he chose to publicly be a sexist jerk and intentionally offend someone in a social situation.
I _do_ feel empathy for people with poorly developed social skills - having been there myself and having friends and colleagues in the same boat (as I suspect most of us in this industry/profession do), BUT, if you've made it to 20 or 25 years old without having worked out that accusing a female of ony having accomplished something "because TITS!", you're clearly in need of stronger education techniques than "encouraging growth through understanding" - I'm not advocating punching him in the face, but if he were a puppy I'd be whacking him on the nose with a newspaper. Social imposition and public shaming are _entirely_ appropriate tools to deal with adults who make comments like he did.
Drawing moral equivalence between participating in hostility against women and hostility against the rude and ignorant is a bit of a stretch, too.
Our approach to ending racism was similar, and it was effectual, but over a great period of time incorporating generations of ignorance.
However, there were individuals who managed to help end the passive acceptance of racism by taking a vested interest in changing the thinking of one individual, all without guilting them into compliance.
Exhibit A. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24qxWPPVbM
The NAACP president of Oklahoma, Wade Watts convinced the imperial wizard of a national KKK organization to reconsider his perspective on race. Rev. Watts did not accomplish this through expressing disgust or disapproval, but through patience and empathy. Johnny Lee Carly was swayed from imperial wizard to anti-racism activist. Wade saved Johnny's progeny from harboring the same ignorance, accomplishing in a single generation what had previously taken acts of congress, violence, protest and over a hundred years of blunt disapproval.
I'm not saying Wade's approach is the only way to accomplish a means to societal change, but it can change the perspective of an individual.
And public shaming is absolutely the way you do it. You need to draw a very firm line in the sand which cannot be interpreted in any other way; some wishy-washy "I wish you wouldn't say that" isn't going to do it for some classes of people, who'll just think you're saying that because the woman is there.
Now, myself, I would probably not say "fuck off." I might stand up and say something like "I'm going to have to ask you to apologize for saying that. You disrespected her and you disrespected me." It is polite but firm. It brings to bear social pressure, letting him know in clear terms what he has done and how he can fix it in the near term.
I think social pressure is what needs to make this stop. We need to be mindful of what's not ok and have the courage to say something. That means that the authority is open-sourced to you and me.
Someone else I know wrote a blog post about the Adria Richards thing. He then moderated one comment which was extremely offensive. In retaliation, the person that wrote the comment launched a denial of service against his blog. This industry is full of emotional children that cannot handle being adults, and most of them can never admit that they might be wrong. Had OP confronted this jackass, it probably would have gone nowhere, and running to the cops/conference people is just shoving your problems on someone else. There is just no easy solution here without stepping up and being confrontational.
I'm assuming the game development people (different industry) and GDC might have missed that brouhaha, even though it was all over the news, so I'm sparing the benefit of the doubt that game development should have learned a valuable lesson from the PSF's (and Python community's) misfortune.
1. Remember those silly class codes of conduct we had to do at the beginning of each school year? Bring something like that back at the beginning of each conference. OK, not quite that cheesy, but a reminder at the start about the code of conduct. Offer refunds at that point if people don't agree with them. Hell, we have to sit through the Health and Safety stuff anyway so it's a good time to add them in. (Speaking of which, I think it's too late to do anything int regards to the guy this year).
2. At a grass roots level. I know it's a horrible analogy, but I remember when I was taking my dog through dog obedience (OK, puppy kindy) that if you don't punish a dog within four seconds for something they've done wrong, you might as well forget it as they will have. In that respect, I think any social reactions have to be swift and to the point. Walk away from a group if something is unacceptable, or very quickly say something along the lines of 'that crossed the line and isn't cool'.
Doing nothing because you fear the verbal reprisals of a group of immature misogynists seems, to me at least, the worst of all possible options.
See you thought better than I did. I decided to insult him first, think logical second :-)
If somebody said that next to me in person, I'd probably punch them and apologize afterwards hehe.
(the situation, not the reaction.. I would have asked him to leave (and have in similar situations), though I realise not everyone is as comfortable as with confrontation as I ;)
I would encourage people to name names in these situations. Group humiliation is a very good catalyst for change, if it comes to that.
I think your skepticism is misplaced.
It's not just about whether you take them all seriously, it's whether this constant drumbeat of abuse gets to you. Would you still love your dream job after a year of that? Would you just want the relief of bowing out of any kind of public life?
Women deserve better. Telling them to toughen up doesn't help, it's blaming the victim. Try speaking out instead.
btw rape threats that show a slight chance of being 'real' (say, not a frustrated teenager or drunk idiot from the other side of the globe) should be reported, even just for the sake of it. that said, knowing certain aspects of the gaming community, I imagine there is a bigger chance of the latter.
> Women deserve better.
I agree.
> it's blaming the victim.
hold your horses, I never did that.
1) Douchebags may think you're a 'fag' - You win, they are still douchebags and you are not around douchebags.
2) Douchebags may get embarrassed - You win, they may think before douching again and you are not around douchebags.
3) Douchebags may apologize (assume sincerely), ceasing to be douchebags - You win, the table can return to normal conversation, and you are not around douchebags.
A) Others stay at the table, giving you no support - You win, you have upheld the virtue of equality, you have taken the measure of people you thought were not douchebags, and you are not around douchebags.
B) Others stay at the table, telling douchebags that they were over the line - You win, you have encouraged dissent, and you are not around douchebags.
C) Others leave the table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, and you are not around douchebags.
D) Others follow you to a different table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, you can have a conversation without shouting (unless it's because Tottenham are CRUSHING Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, or Arsenal) and you are not around douchebags.
The important thing is making your stand there and then. It takes chutzpah, but the more you work it, the stronger it gets.
(One of the oddball cases where the "more polite" response may in fact, be more harmful)
[looking the person in the eyes]
"Hey [whoever]"
[repeat as necessary until you have eye contact, at most one or two more times]
"Fuck off."
My favourite pop culture example of this is Mose Shrute (Dwight's brother) from The Office (US). He doesn't try to be weird, he just is, because he's grown up in family with weird norms. Similarly the offensive guy in this story probably isn't deliberately pushing aside his common sense, he is just being who he is all the time: someone who is poorly socialized.
It's easy to try to bush incidents like this aside by saying "he knew it was wrong and did it anyway, because he is a jerk" but that deflects from the underlying issue. Socializing makes a lot of devs uncomfortable, so they dont do it. They develop their norms in isolation, and then "go in to town" to conferences like GDC and then set off firestorms. Reacting to these situations in person, you start out trying to convince someone that their comment is rude and wrong. However you end up trying to convince them that their whole model of society is wrong. That is what makes me truly tired.
I'm all for multi-lateral motives, but some things are wrong for anyone "in town," whether they rode in on a buckboard or lived there their entire lives.
Correct, but I assumed "I'm tired of losing friends over this" could refer to either side in the argument. If you don't want to hurt anyone, brush off silly comments and move on.
If you want to make a point, by all means.
ps.: "fuck off" might also trigger more discussion, which he's trying to avoid. It's easier to say "my opinion is different" than "your opinion is stupid".
Brushing off the 'silly' comment and moving on is the easiest way to hurt the target more than the comment already has.
I agree that it's easier to say that "my opinion is different", but it's chicken-shit and offers a level of respect that signals unwarranted sympathy. "Your opinion is stupid" would be a profoundly more appropriate statement had it been be, because it much better describes my feelings.
Without making specific slippery-slope arguments, surely at some point we'd all find it ridiculous to say "Thanks, but my opinion is different" after witnessing something disgusting, right? So I guess the question is where that line is for us individually. "You got this pass because of your tits" is severely past that line for me. It's miles deep into "Fuck off" territory.
The original poster? I really don't understand the point of your comment. Bars have bouncers for a reason.
If you leave, probably there's awkward silence, someone makes a halfhearted joke, and eventually the conversation changes to something else. Out of sight, out of mind.
If you stay and demand an apology politely but firmly, the aggressor is in an awkward position. An apology is something utterly reasonable to demand and there's a lot of social pressure around that, at least if you want to be seen as a (relatively) mature person.
It also gives the aggressor a way to reconcile. They're probably more likely to reflect than if you just flounce; the possibility for further conversation is still there.
Of course, that said, if they apologize insincerely or not at all, there's not much you can do but leave. But you don't want to raise the stakes that high until you've offered some concrete way for the aggressor to end the confrontation.
> I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win. [..] TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY CLINGING TO POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM.
Walking away isn't just politeness and it doesn't mean you don't confront them. But this type of confrontation is not productive if there is not a consensus at the table. It devolves into the kind of situation that just makes the original victim feel smaller and worse. You end up throwing a tantrum trying to force the rest of the table to punish the aggressor.
Stand up against this kind of behavior, certainly. Hopefully this will give the others at the table courage to denounce it also and make the offender unwelcome. But becoming belligerent and trying to force him to leave, as tiredofcareer seemed to suggest, is not a productive way to handle the situation.
Best scenario is when you call the person out on their remarks and they apologize. Short of that, you hope everyone else makes it socially difficult for them to stay without apologizing. Worst case you leave.
I also strongly disagree with this:
> This isn't like high school where you can just up and walk away and get whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch last Tuesday, OMG!
Yes, this is not highschool. We all expect to be more mature than that. If a friend of mine left a dinner saying, "I'm sorry, this behavior is not acceptable to me and I can't stay," that would make me seriously reconsider my position. This person is my friend. I value their opinion. If they are so upset that they feel they cannot in good conscience stay then I must have seriously misjudged the importance of what just happened. That is the reaction you are trying for.
Because you're rational. Someone who doubles down on a comment about someone's tits being her weather helm for success after being lightly called on it is not rational. You can't put yourself in this guy's shoes, because you aren't that guy. I've dealt with this kind of person before, directly, with significant results.
I, personally, would make a joke at your expense after you're gone and get the rest of the table back on my side. Because I swim in the middle of this moral compass. Something like: "wonder what got under his skin, sorry about the scene, there, guys;" bam, I just got the table back on my side and now you're the idiot. I know this because I've been in this exact situation after I offended someone into leaving my company. Next thing said was "yeah, he's been testy lately, maybe he needs some time alone". We completely forgot about my poor remark that shoved him away in the first place. As much as you'd like to believe you've "sent a message" to me and the other people at the table, we've really said "what a dork" and moved on with our lives with minimal interruption.
Weak people are going to do two things in that scenario: (a) not follow you from the table when you "make your stand" by fleeing, because they're not sure about it, and (b) instantly flop back to wondering what the hell is wrong with you after an ever-so-gentle shove from the original offender in your absence.
Emotional manipulation is comically easy, and after you've worked with typical Silicon Valley types for 10+ years, this is a pretty consistent roadmap.
> Best scenario is when you call the person out on their remarks and they apologize.
I don't understand what you're saying here. I'm positing that you should call the person out on the remarks and demand apology. You say the same thing in this sentence, then spend the rest of your comment explaining how I'm wrong. Making him leave is the last step of my escalation path, which I laid out in the linked comment, which it seems like you didn't read.
Right now resolution of these incidents goes like this:
Hear ugly -> politely ignore in person -> report to others
This is like calling the police because someone shouted in your face and you can't handle it. The correct answer is handling it yourself. The police don't have time for that shit, and I've seen way too many people think that's what the police are for (even calling 911 because someone was shouting at them, or laid a hand on them -- though the latter gets a little more complicated). Here's how this sort of thing should go:
Hear ugly -> stop socializing and make offender cry
1. Someone says something ugly.
2. "Whoa whoa, everybody stop. Shut up a second."
3. "What did you just say?"
4. Continue silencing the table.
Do not let anybody else stop you or get involved.
5. "That is completely unacceptable."
6. "You owe your victim an apology."
Do not stop until you get an honest one.
7. If the offender whimpers, good. You got through.
8. If the offender refuses apology, eject the offender.
Seriously, be the change you want to see in our industry. Quit calling the cops to make other people fix your problems. Stop being polite to assholes. Your politeness is what feeds them -- they know you won't confront them.
In an ideal world, it'd go something like this:
Hear ugly -> confront offender -> extract apology -> inform others
Hear ugly -> ensure safety of ones self and others -> inform others
And in one respect, making a change isn't my first priority. My first priority is making these places a safe place for people to be. Making the people who would otherwise make this an unsafe space rethink their actions is a secondary goal.
I see the safety argument making an appearance here yet again, even though neither Adria nor the woman in this story were in any danger from the person (as far as I can tell). If you think jokes make PyCon or GDC an unsafe place, I'm sure everyone who's ever been sexually assaulted would like a word with you about what 'safe' means. It's making the assumption that people who joke inappropriately will eventually be rapists, and we should therefore warn everyone to stay away from them, which is fundamentally flawed.
Just deal with it in person. If he's a repeat, eventually it'll catch up with him enough. Of course, there's no saying something this controversial without geek feminists trotting out the "you're just shutting up the victim" line, which is complete hogwash. I've been called a rape apologist for making the point about dealing with something privately. People do change, even in the extreme scenarios, and the age of rapid social media and Internet communication demands ever higher vigilance over our actions online.
There are two outcomes, if we extrapolate this to the ends: we shame someone publicly and effectively destroy a career, eliminating any possibility of improvement as a human being and the contributions that person might have brought to the table, or we deal with it in person and attempt to steer him toward the right path. The default tendency to feel hopeless about fixing something is swaying this choice the wrong way.
This kind of person is not the kind of friend I keep. And anyways, this is more directed at the rest of the table who lacked the conviction to act.
> get the rest of the table back on my side.
Sounds like the whole table is full of people who are not actually my friends and not who I am interested in spending my time with. I am glad to have left.
I read your linked comment. I do agree with you about the first course of action. What do you do when you get step 8 and the person says, "Pff. No, I'm staying." Are you going to forcibly eject them? What if the rest of the table doesn't care enough? Get into a fight?
I disagree with your strong stance against leaving the situation. You characterize it as weak and ineffectual. I call it choosing who you keep company with. I myself am coming up on 15 years as a software developer. Maybe it is a cultural disconnect as I am in Austin, not Silicon Valley, but outside of college I have never been party to an incident as offensive as that described by the OP. I don't work for companies full of people like this, I don't hire people like this, and I don't socialize with people like this. If someone insists on remaining too immature to be respectful and tolerant of other people I do not want to waste my time and energy on them.
> Emotional manipulation is comically easy
This confuses me. I do not know too many people who would be easily manipulated in this way. Certainly not my coworkers. Maybe young kids in their early twenties who have still not figured out who they are.
You shape your society by who you choose to keep company with and by the expectations you place on that company. People in my life know that I will treat them with respect and courtesy and will deal with them honestly. They know I expect the same in return. If the rest of the table sides with the aggressor, or is unwilling to side with me and demand the aggressor apologize then at some point I determine that this is not the company I want to keep and I leave. There are a lot of things I will tolerate, because nobody is perfect--surely I'm not perfect--and people have differences. But a persistent lack of basic respect and civility is something I won't tolerate.
Finally:
> "wonder what got under his skin, sorry about the scene, there, guys;" bam, I just got the table back on my side and now you're the idiot.
This is understandable because we are strangers, but saying this after I left would not likely make me look like an idiot. I am not going to cause a big scene when I leave. I am still going to be polite and leave calmly. It would be hard to label me as testy. In an actual situation I would probably be a little more verbose: "I'm sorry guys, that's not cool/that' not OK/this isn't acceptable (depends on setting). I'm going to head out. I'll see you later. (to the injured party) You want to finish dinner/have dessert/grab coffee at <destination>? (if they say no) OK, have a good night." Then leave calmly.
Ironically, you are causing a big scene when you force conversation to stop until the guy apologizes. If the rest of the table agrees with you, great. I am not saying a big scene is always a bad thing, but if the table doesn't side with you then you look like the idiot. Maybe in their minds they are thinking, "Here tiredofcareer goes again. He's always getting worked up about something. Just give him what he wants so he'll calm down."
The argument that because in these two cases (of the damn near uncountable issues of people having to put up with similar comments, criticisms or slurs) the person in question wasn't in any danger doesn't mean that in every instance the person was neither in danger nor felt in danger. And what's more, these comments, jokes etc. actively contribute to an environment where it is insinuated that these words and by extension these actions are okay.
So an asshat making a sexist joke will hopefully never rape someone, but they're certainly making it a more fertile environment for the bastard who then goes on to rape someone. Under this understanding of the issue, yes it makes sense to actively exclude those people making sexist (or for that matter homophobic, racist etc., the "rape culture" argument extends just fine to other examples) jokes.