In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance(nytimes.com)

63 points by inselkampf 13 years ago | 32 comments

outside1234 13 years ago |

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice.

Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us.

What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

jckt 13 years ago | |

I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business practices".

That said, if you're white, then I would be more inclined to believe the incidences of fraud you've experienced. I still don't believe it's a majority, but the incidences of foreigner-exploitation in China is significant enough to turn away a lot of potential business. I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, especially Caucasians, owe them something -- "after all, didn't you guys plunder our country's treasures 100, 200 years ago?" (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases.

Still, there seems to be a slightly Sinophobic slant to these articles. Stuxnet (I think most people believe it's American/Israeli?) is just evidence of how far the Pentagon has gone with hacking. Its sophistication is actually amazing, and I while most may claim that "hacking Iran is beneficial for the rest of the world", I don't think the consequent fear of American hacking prowess is irrational at all. Is China's decision to ramp up their own cyber-espionage the right thing to do? I don't know. But I believe that any look at the history of international politics will show that nobody really gives a shit about international law whenever it becomes inconvenient. China is hardly a "victim", as they claim, but the narrative of "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.

wnight 13 years ago | | |

> I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, [...] owe them something

Technically, that is racism. Blaming similar looking people.

Less insidious than other forms maybe...

prollyignored 13 years ago | | |

> (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases.

Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective.

Being a hippie peace freak is just silly.

> "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.

True that.

kyllo 13 years ago | |

The attitude in China is that if you don't cheat, you're the fool--because the other guy is certainly cheating you. So everyone lies, cheats, and steals (while of course maintaining a thin veneer of plausible deniability) to avoid being the bigger fool.

This probably is related to the fact that China is a shame-based culture rather than a guilt-based culture. What I mean by that is, people there only feel bad about immoral/unethical behavior if and when they get caught. Wrongdoing is externalized, it exists only in the eyes of others.

"How do you sleep at night?" Is a question Americans often ask when they know someone is getting away with morally wrong or criminal behavior. In China, you will not hear an equivalent question.

vishaldpatel 13 years ago | |

A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. To do business with a reputed company, you have to have a good reputation. As the company that you're working with's reputation gets worse, so do your chances of getting work done / getting paid. Of course, well-reputed companies are probably in higher demand from both suppliers and customers, just like everywhere else, compared to say, cheaper firms.

wisty 13 years ago | | |

> A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important.

There's two concepts here - "face" (literal translation) and "connections" (also a literal translation). Both are widely misunderstood.

AFAIK (and I'm not an expert):

Connections (guanxi) is fairly straightforward - it's all about who you know. However, there's a spectrum between casual acquaintances, people who do each other favors, extremely close friends, and family (in order of usefulness). It's often used as a bluff too (saying you know a guy, when it's all just a con).

"Face" (mian zi) is much more complicated. Since the term is used in English, it's easy to mistake what it really means. And it's also kind of vague - everything from "don't look undignified", to "don't let anyone disrespect you", to "have a good reputation".

Generally, Westerners think "face" means "be upfront, and willing to admit to an honest mistake". In China, this is rarely the case.

PakG1 13 years ago | | |

Where in the world is what you said any different?

The unfortunate thing is that the reputation thing does not seem to extend to customer relationships. It boggles my mind how companies in China seem to be so willing to offer their customers substandard (or even unsafe) products for the sake of saving pennies here and there, especially in an age of weibo and capital punishment for the worst executives.

seanmcdirmid 13 years ago | |

A bit too pessimistic. Its not that bad here, especially in the bigger non-southern cities.

sillysaurus 13 years ago | | |

Its not that bad here

In a business context?

binarysolo 13 years ago | |

Out of curiosity, how were you finding business partners?

There are plenty of upstanding businesses (as well as terrible ones) but most markets are fairly opaque; as a Taiwanese person myself I've found most success working with a local partner to manage resources.

andridk 13 years ago |

Crackers exist and it is a shame that the western world punishes security research and shifts the blame towards the "hackers" instead of trying to get these vulnerabilities fixed, where they originated.

In the coming (or ongoing) cyber-war - who wins? The countries that welcomed crackers or those who jail them?

Note: I am not advocating breaking into people's computers. Just a community that welcomes security input.

EvilLook 13 years ago | |

The reason that the blame is shifted toward "hackers" is that being proactive with security, while the right thing to do, costs money and time. In a market where software from different vendors is usually only determined by price and update frequency spending additional money and time is a competitive disadvantage. However, if you can push your security failings off onto "hackers" not only do you minimize costs but your customers, if they're not sufficiently savvy to this game, think that you're the better vendor because you're able to "beat hackers at their own game".

Nowhere is this mindset more prevalent than in the anti-virus software field, which of course is another can of worms itself.

kleiba 13 years ago |

Oh, too bad. :-(

Given the headline, I was hoping for an article on how technically inclined people are not ridiculed as "geeks" or "nerds" in China, but are rather accepted as contributors to key aspects of life in the 21st century. Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably in the New York Times. Apparently we're not as "21 century" as I thought.

PakG1 13 years ago | |

I think this community really needs to get over this. Individuals, groups of individuals, or even entire communities do not get to determine the definitions of words or how words are used. Words usage is determined by society at large. If this is how hacking is used by society, then that's what it is. That's how the English language works. That's why the word xerox is an acceptable verb. That's why the meaning of the word gay has changed.

English evolves according to how its speakers and writers use it. Let it go.

lmm 13 years ago | | |

The word gay changed precisely because a small community refused to "let it go".

peterkelly 13 years ago | |

> Instead, they're still using "hacking" and "cracking" interchangeably

We lost this one a long time ago...

anExcitedBeast 13 years ago | |

Being "technically inclined" doesn't make you a hacker either. The news may misuse the term, but so does this entire community. "Hacking" does not mean "doing a software job well".

olalonde 13 years ago |

Meta: it seems the New York Times really didn't appreciate getting blocked from China a few months ago. All the articles I read on HN that depict China negatively seem to come from the NYT. Or maybe other publications that aren't blocked in China actively avoid those topics?

meric 13 years ago | |

Or, now that they are blocked, they have nothing to lose by criticising China, unlike other media corporations.

squozzer 13 years ago |

It seems to me that China is building itself a problem that it might not be able to handle in the future. Sort of like the Romans (or Germans or British or Americans) had / have with all of the soldiers they produce(d).