Leading Australian Telco storing data on behalf of US government

Leading Australian Telco storing data on behalf of US government(smh.com.au)

104 points by zzygan 12 years ago | 28 comments

acqq 12 years ago |

One commenter there wrote and I'd like to read some reasonable answer to that:

This is old news, obviously no one watched 4 Corners years ago – I think 15 – 20 yrs ago. I think it was about a program called Echelon. Remember the time a New Zealander broke into one of those unmanned “Pine Gap” sites (in NZ) and found mainframe computers downloading telecommunications data. Did we care then?

halviti 12 years ago | |

Nobody cared then because they didn't understand it.

If all you show someone is a building with some equipment and say that they're monitoring you, it doesn't take much hand-waving to convince someone that these complex systems are only targeting certain people, etc.

Now, rather than just knowledge of a room with blinking lights, we have dumbed-down presentation slides that definitively show even the most computer-illterate person that their own personal data, not just the data of specific people, is being targeted, collected, stored, data-mined, etc.

It goes from a feeling of "it's probably legal, and targeting criminals" to "that's MY data they're stealing"

That's why people care. Moreover, it's just important that people DO care. If everyone adopted the same "why should we care now" attitude, then the powers that be have already won.

tnuc 12 years ago | |

Nobody cared then and nobody cares now, except for a few IT geeks.

In a 15 - 20 years from now the whole lot will have been mostly forgotten and accepted as normal.

There and more important things in the politics such as gay marriage and immigration. Try watching CNN or Fox News and ignoring technical sites. The politicians want votes, they couldn't give a shit about your privacy.

Australia and the US have been keeping call records (number called and time) for well over 20 years. I don't see how any of this is new(s).

Pine Gap is in Australia not New Zealand, not that anyone really cares. :)

And for the tedious people that want sources; Look up how General Patreus got busted with his gmail. Look up the Tampa incident and see how Australia listened into the telephone calls between the boat and Norway(or some such country). There are loads of incidents that spell this shit out but I need sleep and most people would rather watch a speech from Obama/Bush/Palin/Trump than learn what their government is really doing.

contingencies 12 years ago | | |

Having discussed such issues with people internationally for 15 years, my experience paints a different picture. This is becoming an issue within many societies around the world, from China to north Africa to Europe to the Americas. While youth are certainly more aware of the challenges, the issues cross a generation gap and I have seen evidence of significant growth in concern even in the older parts of populations. Years ago, the number of people I could have a discussion with on these matters with was miniscule, these days absolute strangers broach the subject themselves.

mtgx 12 years ago | | |

Is there any reason why privacy couldn't become an issue as big as gay marriage?

I don't think so. People just have to want it as badly and fight for it.

dcfindlay 12 years ago | |

Maybe nobody cared because nobody figured they'd be able to retain the data they captured forever, or that eventually governments would acquire enough processing bandwidth to use the captured data in near realtime.

In the age of social media, we do the public outrage thing a lot better these days, too.

coldtea 12 years ago | | |

Not to mention that we haven't seen so much blatant abuse of power then.

tvwonline 12 years ago | |

Link to radio transcript from 2000 about Echelon.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/stories/s103059.htm

Edit: pulled out a quote:

MICHAEL BRISSENDEN: The existence of the Echelon network was only confirmed a few weeks ago when US National Security Agency documents were declassified. Essentially it's a surveillance network capable of intercepting any telephone call, fax or e-mail made on earth. Echelon is run by the US National Security Agency using satellites and ground bases in Britain, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. It can sift through a million electronic messages every half hour.

damncabbage 12 years ago |

Worse, a number of ISPs use Telstra's lines, eg. iiNet, Internode, TPG. I have no idea if that agreement also covered others using the same cables.

(Telstra was government-owned until it was privatised from 1997-2000, and as such has a monopoly on most of the phone lines; the government sets the wholesale rates at which the lines are leased to other companies. Optus ran a bunch of their own cables, but the coverage isn't nearly as extensive.)

celeryreally 12 years ago | |

At least when running on Internode hardware, the traffic only runs on Telstra copper; once terminated at the exchange (on Agile/Internode DSLAM), it pushes out into Internode's backhaul/network. (It's a moot point if the backhaul is Telstra owned I guess, or significant parts of the private network is leased from Telstra...)

daegloe 12 years ago | |

Still worse, as mandated by the Australian government, won't all internet traffic eventually switch over to the new government owned/controlled FTTP and wireless infrastructure of the National Broadband Network?

dcfindlay 12 years ago | | |

In our area the NBN has gone up recently, and we've received letters saying that the existing copper network will be decommissioned in a year so all landline phone users will need to get an NBN connection. If the Aus govt is baking intercept points into the NBN (not hard to imagine) then they'll be able to intercept phone traffic as well, whether they get cooperation from telcos or not.

arjn 12 years ago |

Note that Telstra was once owned by the Australian government. Recently their stake was reduced to about 10% (according to wikipedia) but IMO the Aussie government still dictates a lot of what Telstra can do.

xyzzy123 12 years ago | |

It is still a political project. We have to assume it's compromised, although by friendly government.

dcfindlay 12 years ago |

Interesting that nobody I've talked to over here seems to be that surprised about the extensive data collection. A few people are annoyed about the unaccountable way it's been done and the abuse of power, real or potential, though.

It takes a lot to shake Aussies out of the "she'll be right" mentality, and we don't have a Fourth Amendment to be violated like the US does.

I also fear that the aware, technically literate people here won't attempt to move Parliament House on the issue, they'll just resort to stronger encryption.

edit:grammar

voltagex_ 12 years ago | |

Oh I dunno, a few well placed Murdoch headlines seem to do the trick. If only he were on our side...

sev 12 years ago |

Every time I try to explain the implications of privacy intrusion to friends some always argue, "who cares, as long as you're not doing something wrong" - they also don't care about identity theft or anything...they simply don't care. And I want them to care...how do I force them to?

imagross 12 years ago | |

Those attitudes are what makes a system like this incredibly scary, and what ultimately makes it most effective. What we've created is more or less a panoptic society where by knowing they are being watched all the time, people become self policing. At that point it's just a matter of how you define what is 'wrong' which is likely just going to be what opposes the current status quo.

acqq 12 years ago | |

Why do you think you have the right to "force" them?

Just explaining, only when they are interested to hear, and not giving theory but the real-life examples is the only sensible advice. Of course, you have to do your homework first.

rustynails77 12 years ago | | |

Do you remember the blue ribbon internet campaign back in the late 90s? At the time, I went into Australian #irc channels raising awareness. I was assuming that most Australians on the Internet (back then) were technically literate and would care. I had quite a few people who said "go fuck yourself" in different forums when I raised the issue. I hate to say it, but I do consider many of my Australian bretheren to be "redneck" like, but not quite like the "stereotype" you see in the movies. Hoping for the average Australian to "give a fuck" is not going to happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Ribbon_Online_Free_Speech_...

CPAhem 12 years ago |

More detailed analysis and original documents http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/12/telstras-deal-with-the-d...

decryptthis_NSA 12 years ago |

Big Telcos are at the mercy of big governments for anti-trust issues, contracts so this is not a surprise. DOJ and FBI can cause them many headaches.

This should bite them though when trying to buy foreign firms, cable links etc. No rational and influential country would let them do it after these leaks.