Ask HN: Why does evil succeed so well in our world?

19 points by diminium 12 years ago | 20 comments

I asked this questions a while back "Ask HN: Why is it easier to make money by being evil?" (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4609433).

I gave an two examples. One of internet companies keeping track of their users and selling the data to the highest bidder. The other is how it's easier to make money selling Orwellian central management software vs employee empowerment software.

It seems like it is much easier to succeed by doing evil things instead of doing good. Why is this?

NovemberWest 12 years ago |

During The Great Depression, farms were having their equipment repossessed for non-payment. The John Deere Tractor Company decided to do no such thing. They told people "At some point, the weather will improve and you will need your tractor. Pay us when you can." Supposedly, for decades afterwards, if a tractor salesman for a different company saw a John Deere on a farm, there was no point in stopping.

John Deere is still going strong. I imagine a lot of their competitors went under during The Great Depression. It was impossible to sell the repossessed tractors since no one had any money.

I am feeling pretty bitter (about my personal situation) and feeling like, yes, evil wins. But I am not convinced the objective evidence really bears that out.

nicholas73 12 years ago | |

The cynic businessman way to look at this is that John Deere knew repossessing a tractor was pointless, because there would be no one to resell it to. It would better to forebear the loan for later repayment and gain the goodwill.

NovemberWest 12 years ago | | |

My oldest son is basically a sociopath. He once tried to tell me a good thing he did was not really good because he did it for bad reasons. I assured him there were no thought police and the only important part was that he had, in fact, done the right thing.

I honest to god do not care what motivated their decision. I am a bleeding heart idealist, or at least perceived as such. Yet, I think "doing right" is a pragmatic thing, not some abstract ideal measured by some supposed god in some supposed spiritual realm.

(But have an upvote. Good comment.)

esw 12 years ago | |

That's a great anecdote. Thank you so much for sharing.

patmcc 12 years ago |

Why are your examples "evil"?

Your first one might mean gmail serves me ads for chicken wings (which I want) instead of diapers (which I don't). Is that evil?

As for the second, banks are under Orwellian central management - every penny is recorded going in and coming out. Is that evil, or is that good for everyone who holds a deposit? What's employee empowerment software exactly, anyway?

Casseres 12 years ago | |

When I read the ASK HN headline, I immediately thought of stealing. Petty theft, that is. To make stealing a career, I imagine it would take a lot of work if you don't want to be caught - probably just as much as a legitimate job.

I've seen things that would be pretty easy to steal and net a criminal something equivalent to a good year's salary, but criminals are generally stupid and blow their ill-gotten gains on stupid things, meaning they then have to steal again to maintain their lifestyle.

nyan_sandwich 12 years ago |

It is demonstrably not the case that it is easier to make money through evil than good, at least historically; the world we live in now is quite nice compared to the past, and that's the result of selfish people following incentives. If incentives were aligned with evil, we would expect to live in an evil world, and we do not.

There is evil around every corner for sure, but it is outweighed by the good. Sure there are incentives for scummy business practices that add a bit of evil on the margin, but do you really think most companies are a net negative? That that marginal evil isn't outweighed by the vast good and wealth that is created as well?

The question you should have asked is "Why do i think incentives align with evil?", and the answer is "Because you take the good for granted and thereby fail to notice it."

We're on the Internet. Show me some evil that outweighs the awesomeness of that.

CyberFonic 12 years ago |

"The love of money is the root of all evil"

It might be more of a case of motivation. Sociopaths don't care what others think so they'll go for it, the consequences be damned. On the other hand, nice people, who are the majority, will only go as far as their conscience allows them. So in business terms "they choke". Of course, the tendencies of greed and ego are in collusion.

To give just one example, bankers gave housing loans even to people who couldn't afford them. Then they foreclosed on those homes. A "nice" banker would have said "Sorry, you can't afford that house. How about a more modest one." The result the nice banker would miss out on the business. The borrower going with the one that made the bigger home attainable.

001sky 12 years ago | |

To give just one example, bankers gave housing loans even to people who couldn't afford them. Then they foreclosed on those homes. A "nice" banker would have said "Sorry, you can't afford that house.

The counter point to this is that it was (political) public policy that spurred the bankers to lend to 'sub-prime- credits. The policy that led to the housing bubble was a pernicious trade, basically politicians bribing the bankers (for votes) with allures of money, and bribing the lower-middle classes (for votes) with allures of new credit. In the political sense, it was a bout power and social position, not money (although they are undoubtedly interlinked). This special interest legacy was then followed by similar moves (same motives) in to promote the lending to students (promises of easy credit) and promote the expansion of Academia (promises of larger budgets), again for political gain. Similarly, the repeal of Glass-stegall (under the Deomocrats with Clinton) and the foistering of the Universal banking model on Congress (through both its own actions and the WTO treaty), in another nod to secure the support of the Banks (with promises of greater CEO pay) and the lower middle classes (continued expansion of easy credit).

7952 12 years ago |

Ethics (good or bad) are not enough alone to make a particular action viable. Usually you need a community of people who are prepared to believe that a particular action is "good". At that point social pressure is enough to push people down a path regardless of the actual benefits or costs. This can be hugely beneficial (charitable donation) or very very bad. I don't think you can get the good without the bad. A lot of good human behavior would be lost of people only acted on logic.

lifeisstillgood 12 years ago |

I reprint a letter I just received (inscribed on human skin) for your edification:

Dear Humans

I hereby reclaim the word "evil". It seems to have worked for "queer" by those San Francisco guys, so I am trying it for evil.

As The Lord of Lies I have put in plenty of effort over the centuries, encouraging wars, rape and torture. it takes quite a lot of effort to persuade someone to hang a pregnant woman extra high and then to slice open her belly to let the foetus dangle too - but I think you will agree that that's pretty evil. The march of technology has helped (guns guns guns!) but real evil still takes the personal touch.

so imagine my horror when people call scummy business practises "evil". I mean ohhh that guy is aggregating my click throughs to sell more toasters. Where is the soul-destroying fear in that? I mean I used to call retargeting what happened when you make a mother choose which child to have shot. now it's marketing

No thank you. you keep your evil empire and your "don't be evil" slogans. I will summon up the deepest devils from the pit and head to Syria, where I can show you all what words like evil really mean. Pleasant dreams.

yours

Belezebub

debacle 12 years ago |

Desperation in the common man to keep himself and his children afloat creates opportunities for the wicked man because a desperate man cannot afford to have social vigilance.

unimpressive 12 years ago |

'evil' follows the incentive structures wherever they lead, and profits a great deal from it. That would be my best guess.

terrykohla 12 years ago |

If you look at the economy from a global point of view, you can see the money is constantly flowing between good an evil. It's the ying and the yang. You can choose to see the good or the evil but they're both there always seeking an unreachable equilibrium, like the waves in the ocean.

Some people out there are doing "evil" right now keep you safe warm and cozy.

factorialboy 12 years ago |

Is making money success?

djanogo 12 years ago |

Evil and good are relative, one can't exist or be defined without the other. Universe destroys and creates at the same time, neither of them is good or bad.

mattm 12 years ago |

If you believe it, then so be it.

krapp 12 years ago |

Because good is dumb.

_delirium 12 years ago |

This guy Marx wrote a bit about it...