The Bay Area

49 points by knv 12 years ago | 46 comments

nemothekid 12 years ago |

>I can’t help noticing that 100% of the people I see who are building the future and making the big bucks are ethnically Chinese, Indian, or white. And 100% of the people I see who are washing floors or guarding doors or serving fast food are black and Mexican and Central-American.

Painting this social issue as racism is incorrect and using racism as a boogeyman, sweeps the real issues under the rug. I'm confident that now, especially in Silicon Valley, that no one in this social ladder is actively working against the issues of black and latino people.

Its my understanding is that you aren't actually seeing racism, but class discrimination. I wonder how many Indian or Chinese founders are actually immigrants from relatively well todo families that could afford to send someone half way across the world. I also wonder what is the class make up of white people in that same demographic. Are poor white people afforded the same opportunities? (which is another reason I'm opposed calling this "racism", you may be potentially leaving out an underserved demographic who is being told to "deal with it" because they were born white, yet poor - and alot of them don't exist in cities, but in Rural America)

Looking at it this way, you shift the problem from becoming one about chasing the racist white boogeyman who isn't giving black people jobs, and highlight a deeper social issue. Is the issue here actually that poor america has low social mobility?

Simultaneously, if we look at all the minorities in tech, what socioeconomic background do they come from? I'm willing to bet they are the same, and like me, college educated parents and high income.

So how come there are no poor white people at mcdonalds? Well whats the demo of san francisco's poor? The white poor may all be working at the mcdonalds in the flyover states.

jisaacstone 12 years ago | |

I think you are mostly correct. More precisely, if you take away race you will see that the distinction is 90% education-based. Specifically talking about immigrants, those indians and chinese (and japanese, pakistani, nepalese, korean, iranian, etc) as well as the eastern eropeans that you do not see all have a good education an most likely come from at least the top half of their society.

The Hispanic immigrants are more likely from a lower class an much more likely to have arrived on something like a family visa with no higher education at all.

jmagoon 12 years ago | |

I've always heard of this referred to as institutional racism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

"When racism is built into the institution, it appears as the collective action of the population", thus "San Francisco is racist".

sliverstorm 12 years ago | | |

Your parent is arguing that the lines drawn along race are merely correlated, rather than the cause. Thus, not institutional racism.

In other words, the system is failing people not because of their colour, culture, or ethnic origin, but because of their class, which happens to roughly line up with race.

The difference between "You are poor because you are Mexican/from Mexico" and "You are poor because you started out poor, and it just so happens that you are from Mexico where a lot of people started out poor".

nemothekid 12 years ago | | |

I don't think I can refer to is as institutional racism. Maybe there are some laws that disproportionally effect minorities in California - I'm not an expert so I don't know. However, I don't think the term racism actually belongs. It seems to me that these are the effects are due to class, and (through the indirect effects of racism of old), blacks and other minorities are disproportionally poor. Because, especially in urban centers, that minorities make up most of the poor, I'm guessing, that one may mistakenly assume its due to racism, when its actually because of socioeconomic background.

msandford 12 years ago | |

I started to read your comment and went "wuh oh" but kept reading. You made an excellent point that there may well be poor whites who are underserved as well.

I imagine that college educated parents with high income (or lack thereof) is a better predictor of future earnings than skin color or sex. I don't have any kind of study to back this up, it's an educated guess. I would love it if someone found something and posted a link with evidence for or against.

I grew up in one of the richer flyover states (MN) and I can assure you that 20 years ago and even 10 years ago there were plenty of poor whites working all kinds of unskilled jobs. Here in Texas (where I live now) it's very uncommon to see whites mowing, painting, etc for a living. Where I grew up in MN it was basically all whites doing that kind of work.

ahomescu1 12 years ago | |

> I wonder how many Indian or Chinese founders are actually immigrants from relatively well todo families that could afford to send someone half way across the world.

From personal experience, I can say that it's not that expensive to send someone "half way across the world" (I grew up in Romania, but currently live in California). What is hard is immigration/getting a visa, but you can't really fix that with more money (unless you're going for the investor visa, which very few do).

Also, it's really easy to apply for BigCo (Google, Apple, Facebook) jobs in the Bay Area from outside the US (you get phone interviews at first, the get flown over for on-site interviews on the company's dime). It's really not money that's stopping people from getting "in".

rootedbox 12 years ago |

I'm hispanic living in the mission, and for a long time I also had 2 black roommates. We've had many conversations about direct blatant racism, and also indirect just people being ignorant in what they say bigotry. Of course a lot of non-minorities have issues understanding the difference in racism, and bigotry.

This being said. What is brought up in this article is racism. Specifically the institution of racism. If you are not actively doing things to fix the institutions of racism, and sexism; then you are actively part of an institution of racism and sexism. Silicon Valley / San Francisco has done very little to fix racism, and sexism. If we all got together and wanted to defeat these institutions we could do so in 20 years; and work at places where the race, and sex of workers is representative of the general public.

twrkit 12 years ago |

This is one of those unfortunate situations where no matter what he says it's going to make things worse. And now to nitpick:

As someone who works in tech and lives in the Bay Area, I can tell you without a doubt there are many people in the industry who are indeed 'black and Mexican and Central-American.' Conversely (and somewhat anecdotally), I see plenty of Asian-Americans and whites working in fast food.

angryindianguy 12 years ago |

I am sorry I used to think that Tim Bray was a smart guy. Hell Indians in India are far more poorer than African Americans. Now if some indians worked hard and pulled themselves up, and got jobs / started companies in SF. But hey its still racism. There is no institutional racism, what exists is a black latino culture that looks down upon education. Thats the problem that needs to be addressed not some institutional racism boogeyman.

People want to work with other people who will help them succeeds in fact Asians and Indians show that SF is not at all racist.

thetrb 12 years ago |

This is a blog and therefore the author can of course present his opinion in any way he wants, but I'd really like to see this claim backed up somehow. Are there any statistics that show a difference in the distribution of wealth or well-paying jobs between the Bay Area and Vancouver?

jfoutz 12 years ago | |

this work? http://ccsre.stanford.edu/reports/report_13.pdf

thetrb 12 years ago | | |

This doesn't even reference Vancouver or Canada at all. It has some interesting information, so thanks for the link, but I don't think it answers the general question.

countrybama24 12 years ago |

There is a selection bias here. Immigrating from Asia is significantly more difficult and expensive than Central America. I would hypothesize that immigrants from these areas are more ambitious, economically better off and more capable on average than immigrants from nearby countries (and maybe even "native" Americans). Additionally, immigrants are more likely to assimilate into local American life and have better relationships with American institutions (police, schools, etc.) than African-Americans who unlike immigrants, didn't choose to be here and are more likely to view such institutions in a negative light.

savvyraccoon 12 years ago |

The same "racism" in Vancouver: "Most of Metro Vancouver’s Filipinos value being near transit hubs – since many need to travel inexpensively to low-tomiddle-wage jobs as nannies, cleaners, seniors care aids, security officials, service clerks, short-order cooks and practical nurses"

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2011/10/17/ethnic-mapping-3-fi...

jedmeyers 12 years ago | |

How dare you claim that Capital of the Anti-racism, warm and fuzzy Vancouver is racist!

Racism in Vancouver: We Need to Stop Pretending It Doesn't Exist (http://groupthink.jezebel.com/racism-in-vancouver-we-need-to...)

"No, no, no — it's okay. Because every Canadian will tell you it's NBD because they're not as bad as Americans. "

Patrick_Devine 12 years ago | |

To be fair, people of all income levels and races use the Skytrain in Vancouver, and the most dense parts of the city are all clustered around it.

savvyraccoon 12 years ago | | |

The point is not Skytrain, but Filiponos who work on low-tomiddle-wage jobs.

DiabloD3 12 years ago |

I have to admit, this guy has balls for saying these things. I am not saying I agree with him OR disagree with him, but online reputation affects your ability to get hired by tech companies.

I have not read the whole saga of this, but this may positively or negatively his chances of getting another job in the tech sector.

Also, the comments are worth looking through, ageism has also been brought up (and, as an outsider looking at the Silicon Valley, is a problem IMO).

100k 12 years ago | |

Mr. Bray is likely quite wealthy and unlikely has to worry so much about getting a job, both due to being a well-known technologist and having "fuck you" money (in his previous post about leaving Google he writes, "From a financial point of view I could just stop working, but that would be boring and unhealthy").

carsongross 12 years ago |

Hilariously, blacks and hispanics make up less than 2.5% of Vancouver's population:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver

But, please, lecture us more on the topic.

Personally, I live in Sacramento, America's most diverse city: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,340694,00... So I'm allowed to lecture ALL OF YOU regarding your privilege.

Noted 12 years ago | |

Did you actually read that article? Or did I massively misread it. He never talked about blacks and hispanics in Vancouver. "Our own racist stench is that Canada’s original inhabitants no longer number among what I called our “main ethnic groups”" But, please, lecture us more on an article you didn't read

smackfu 12 years ago | | |

But then he says it's not the bad kind of racism, so Vancouver is still better: "So yeah, it sucks, but it’s not a systemic thing you see in every bloody burger joint and cleaning crew."

smackfu 12 years ago |

Oh boy. He probably should have just let it go.

Kroem3r 12 years ago | |

Ya, no doubt. But perhaps he took it as an opportunity as he was stepping away from prominence to do something positive with it. A favorite example being Eisenhower's farewell address.

hablahaha 12 years ago |

The other post on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7271704

eldude 12 years ago |

Unfortunately, a great deal of the perceived "racism" in the US is actually cultural. The greatest example of this are Blacks. Yes, African Americans have an extensive, awful and horrific national history of racism and abuse, but there are numerous examples of African American culture holding itself back.

A couple examples: Bill Cosby[1], Jamaicans[2], black raised by whites[3]. (There are numerous others, but these are the easy three.)

Jamaicans for example, see African Americans as lazy and deserving of their place in American society and often hate being referred to as African American because it is both inaccurate, and because they do not culturally identify with them, seeing no conflict between their blackness and their ability to achieve the American Dream.

When you hear cries of racism, consider whether you actually see people being mistreated or considered inferior because of the color of their skin, or if their own (cultural) behaviors are ensuring their struggle. It's extremely unfortunate and my heart breaks for anyone suffering from cultural peer pressure or family pressures to not forsake their "heritage" by "acting white," especially since you don't have to act white in order to act successful.

My opinion is that you see this exemplified most in the Bay Area because you are viewing the top 0.1% of achievers in the tech industry. Adding a self-sabotaging cultural identity certainly cannot help, and I imagine going to non-top 20 public university probably also doesn't help, which is why so many in the Bay Area grads are from MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Carnegie Mellon, etc... graduates.

FWIW, I acknowledge that there ARE in fact some cultural pressure to conform to arbitrary FLOABW "white" behaviors, which have similar ramifications to racism, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

Lastly, self-sabotaging culture is not uniquely black, white, hispanic, etc... which is why it's has nothing to do with race or racism.

[1] http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/cosby.asp [2] http://www.jamaicans.com/articles/primecomments/1002_amerija... [3] Barack Obama, Halle Berry, numerous friends...

vondur 12 years ago |

You will mostly see Hispanic people working the types of jobs Mr. Bray lists because many of them are illegals, and are paid under the table. It keeps labor costs low. It's not really racism so much as economic exploitation.

ultimatedelman 12 years ago |

100% is a bit... hyperbolic. I work in SOMA and paid a white dude for my sandwich today.