Ask HN: Are there many professional devs who don't have any degree? There's a thread here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9163921 about differences between cs grads and non cs grads as devs. Which got me to thinking are there many devs who don't have any degree? I'd be curious to hear from you and how you go about getting jobs without a degree, and has not having a degree limited your career prospects? |
I work for a technology research agency, with some absolutely amazing engineers. Former googlers, top of the field stuff. Though sometimes they are speaking far above my current knowledge, the fact that I don't have a degree is never an issue. It's just that I haven't learned x or y YET. Most of the stuff I'm learning from them, I don't think most CS students would have learnt either. I'm incredibly lucky.
The great thing about it all, is that I also don't have the rules instilled in me, which they have. Which (I think) is why I'm sometimes able to come up with more elegant solutions to problems than they are. I always say, "I'm not smarter than them, but I may be more creative".
Though the research agency asked if I had a degree, it was never an issue for them. The interesting thing is that the companies that I had spoken to who were adamant that their engineers had degrees where doing the least interesting and challenging stuff. The really interesting stuff, people would ask why I don't have a degree, but once they saw the history of work, and example of my code, that was it. It never came up again.
So, I think it might depend on what type of developer you are. If you're going to work for digital agencies, it might matter. If you're going to work for people without a technical background (who don't understand that a degree maybe doesn't mean that much), you might need one. If you're able to teach yourself enough to be more than dangerous, make a few really interesting and challenging projects come off, and most importantly, surround yourself with people you can continue to learn from, I think you'll be ok.
It seemed to me, when I was interviewing, that the importance of a degree was in inverse correlation to your expectations.
Despite having a diploma now, all of the jobs/positions I had before were obtained on the basis that I do not have a degree.
In terms of getting jobs without a degree, it honestly hasn't been very difficult, though I don't really have the experience of someone with a degree to compare with.
I got my first computer quite late in my life, but I was very enthusiastic (obsessed really) about learning programming/web development/web security. I've been fortunate enough to run into people who for the most part, appreciate and can vouch for my knowledge. Heck, even people who after interviewing me, took a chance and convinced skeptics to give me a chance.
I won't say I was never rejected by a company simply because I do not possess a degree, but it has never really bothered me. I've worked with many great companies and teams on many great projects and if those other doors didn't close for me, I probably wouldn't have had the opportunities I had.
Something I've noticed though: To many, a degree is a sign of being able to commit and follow through with something. The lack of a degree, especially for someone as young as myself, is disconcerting/a red flag to many. And that's perfectly fine, I get the concerns. Not everyone will take the time or effort to understand why you never got a degree (financial difficulties or otherwise), they may just write you off.
That being said, I do recommend anyone who is blessed with the opportunity, to go and finish a degree. I've seen firsthand the connections some prestigious programs provide that I was never able to get, and most importantly, many people simply do not have the discipline to delve deep into the various areas necessary to allow you to be successful in this field. There's no doubt it's tiring and it's definitely no easier than following a set curriculum.
Enrolled in CS program at uni in 2000, got a programming job with a company building an "online shopping mall" (in the model of [Shopify](http://shopify.com). The lead-programmer there was 19, I was 26. I started learning MySQL on day 1. Introduced OO-perl to young kid. I implored my boss-at-the-time "we need to hire some young CS grads, and he did. One guy in particular was much more talented all-around, I found, so I quickly encouraged him to take the reins and lead us.
I've been self-incorporated and working from home for ~5 years now. I specialize in Ruby, Rails, complex Javascript SPAs and Cordova (including custom plugins on the native Android & iOS side).
I made a name for myself in the Sencha/ExtJS universe (which is fading now), but I got a lot of work directed at me by taking part in that community.
I've always been pretty active in OSS projects and I'm always managing some of my own for niche applications, which seem to gather a small audience. That's been pretty important over the years, getting someone hooked on your OSS code.
If you're doing Cordova apps and you need battery-efficient background location-tracking on iOS/Android, Google: "background geolocation", I might be the 1st couple results :)
I don't really do much hunting for jobs these days, they come to me instead (so far). When my plate is full, I raise my rate higher as a filter.
I should add, while I don't have a CS degree, I did have 1 year college electronics in addition to 3 years of vocational high-school electronics which gave me the fighting chance.
I was posed a question... how would you simulate the appearance of a fruit machine wheel (3D rendering). I explained that I did not have the answer with all the details already, but probably would not need to know them all either and could use what's already been done to a large extent. This was put to me as the kind of thing that an employee there would be expected to know. I asked my two interviewers what the answer was, how they would solve such a problem. There was a lot of umming and arring for a few (uncomfortable for them) minutes. I found it very funny.
Actually, it's pretty routine for a boss or coworker to ask me a year or two into a new job "hey, what university did you say you went to?"
My response: I didn't go to school.
Starting out though, it was a little tricky: I was making $27,000 as the sole developer at little photo-lab in downtown Dallas, TX. However, once you get a year or two of experience down on paper, and assuming you kicked ass those first years, not having a college education isn't a problem.
A few notes:
1. I'm good at what I do, and I constantly try to improve my skillset. I think that comes across to people, so no one has ever expressed any concern with my education whatsoever. In fact, anyone who I have spoken to about it has explicitly stated they don't care (this goes for people at large recognizable BigCos to small Series As).
2. I network very well. I learned early on that having a mentor and knowing how to be charismatic and connect with influential people is better than spending time fixing up your rèsumè and then submitting it to a job ad. I've also found these people don't care about the credentials.
3. I still recommend most people go to school. People have this tendency to see exceptions to the rule such as myself and think, "Hey, look, you don't need school!"
No, you don't, but how else with you learn? You need a plan. You need a passion. You need discipline. Those words are overused a lot, but to cultivate a skill like programming outside the classroom really does require passion. I sat down for hours a day when I was in high school, reverse engineering things I came across, reimplementing things, tinkering, reading from the same algorithms textbooks people use in top schools.
To be honest, the only real difference is that I read my textbooks from home and didn't pay as much for them. That's the sort of person you need to be. Again, not bragging, just a real point - evaluate if you are this sort of person with this sort of dedication before you drop the regimented structure of school.
4. I'm very open about my background and don't hide it. It's never been a problem and I specifically don't hide it because I'm confident in my skillset. For what it's worth, I still receive recruiting inquiries on LinkedIn several times a week.
5. You do not need to go to school to learn almost every discipline of what is typically called "software engineering." You can learn almost all of computer science online. You have in your pocket the most self empowering tool since the invention of the printing press. You can, at a whim, learn every single algorithm. You can learn to implement every algorithm, and their corresponding time complexities, within six months (three months if you are really studious).
Think about what you can do with three hours of free time a day and the entire internet at your fingertips. I walked through learning several programming languages, algorithms and data structures, algorithm design, optimization, computer architecture, operating sytems, networking, etc. etc. by spending a few hours every single day. The difficulty is not the availability of the information, the difficulty forcing yourself to just sit down and do it.
My bottom line is that it's still better to go to school. For example, I still recommend my young relatives go to university, because I think it's very rare for people to really succeed in teaching themselves without structure imposed on them. But on the other hand I do feel very happy about my choices because I know my skills are strong, my knowledge isn't lacking and I saved quite a bit of money. I don't regret it at all. It's never held me back, and it doesn't have to hold anyone back, but you need the discipline and passion to make it work.