Show HN: My reply to LinkedIn recruiters(dennisvdvliet.typeform.com) |
Show HN: My reply to LinkedIn recruiters(dennisvdvliet.typeform.com) |
I do not get that many emails/contacts from recruiters, and I find a quick polite email exchange or one phone call allows to quickly clarify the situation and we're done.
I actually welcome recruiters contacting me, it keeps me in the loop of what's going, market rate etc... and sometime help me finding new gigs.
EDIT: It seems that where you are located makes a big difference. I get a few emails a week, almost zero spam. People in the bay area reports dozen of emails a day from robots based on keywords, that would indeed be frustrating.
Recruiter: You seem to be a perfect candidate for job A.
Really? That's nice. I'll read on to see the offer...
Recruiter: The position is a senior role using X, Y, Z
Wait a minute, I don't use X, I've only seen Y once and haven't worked in Z for years. What makes this person think I'm right for this position?
Recruiter: Can you send me your resume.
Oh, I see. CV scraping. They collect them for their portfolio I guess, or sell them on or something. It really isn't worth replying if they couldn't even be bothered to read the Linkedin profile they sent a message to, from which it would have been clear that I am in no way a perfect or appropriate candidate for said position.
> "With your underwater basket-weaving chops, the <redacted> team will surpass its goal of exceeding 100M users by 2015."
These, usually more subtle markers, are helpful to scan for when glancing through any recruiter emails.
Recruiter: "I have a great senior engineering position and you're a perfect match!"
Me: "Great. Can you send me a job description and tell me more about what field they're in? I'm an embedded guy and I'm going to want to know if this is (for example) medical, automotive, HMI, or something else."
And this is where things completely go to hell. The typical response is a job description that reads as "must know how to write software" and I've even gotten repsonses like "the client is starting in a new sector and is so stealth they can't talk about it." Seriously?
The other annoying trend now is the marketing and sales types that are scraping LinkedIn for buzzwords and cold calling you based on that. Don't believe me? Put the word "IoT" somewhere in your top description block and watch your inbox and voicemail over the next two weeks.
"Odd," I say, "I don't know anybody from Massachusetts.. maybe it's important!"
So I answer.
"Hello, I am calling from [recruiting company] and have a perfect position for you doing [x, y, and z]! Are you interested?"
Now I think to myself that maybe the job will be good, maybe the pay will be higher than what I'm currently getting, maybe it will be doing something I enjoy. So I say "Okay, sure. Tell me more."
The response is the same every time "Okay, I will send you an email to [my email address] if you would kindly respond with haste!"
I politely say thanks and hang up the phone. I go to check my email and sure enough, there it is- "Hello, I am with [recruiting company] and have a perfect position for you doing [x, y, and z]! Kindly fill out the info below and send me your resume."
WHY?! WHY ARE YOU CALLING ME IF YOU'RE JUST GOING TO SEND ME AN EMAIL SAYING THE EXACT THING YOU TOLD ME ON THE PHONE?!?!
The low quality spam I can do without, but it's never anything to whine about, filter and move on if it's a problem.
I'm not an engineer/developer but this happens in my area as well.
The only recruiters I ever reply to are ones that state the company that they are representing. They tend to be local and actually trying.
I mean.. that's what they are doing, might as well do the same.
The ones that I don't understand is the people who ask to connect on LinkedIn, with no explanation of who they are or why they want to talk to me. For those, I send a generic email telling them that if they want to say something to me, feel free to send an email. None ever have actually done so.
Of course, I do occasionally get people pitching me for software development and staffing services, even though my profile clearly shows I do both. You can't avoid the robots and grossly incompetent.
I'm a Designer with some developer skills and I get spammed constantly for having things like "Javascript" et al on my profile.
My true developer friends seem to get it even worse. Around here, Java is the big need, so if you've got it on your profile, expect constant recruiter spam.
I get recruiter-spammed for C++ positions.
Further, when I respond to recruiters I tell them that I'm making a ton more then I am and in doing so, I get interviews where the offers are paying tons more then my current salary.
Why not use them to get a better deal? The majority of the notices you get go nowhere, while some do and you then get a new gig that pays you almost double from what you were making.
Recruiter: I found your email on LinkedIn and I have a few Java positions you might be interested in. Would you be interested in <blah blah blah>
Me: I don't have a LinkedIn account. How did you actually find my info?
Recruiter: It was in a database we share with a few other recruitment agencies.
Me: Could you remove me from the database?
Recruiter: Okay, you have been removed from the database.
Me: Since we both know you didn't delete it, you at least update it to say I'm interested in Python jobs? I haven't worked in Java in 5 years and have no interest in going back.
Recruiter: Okay, I've added Python to your languages.
Me: But you didn't remove me from the database and you didn't remove Java from my languages?
Recruiter: I'm not authorized to remove data from the database.
Me: So you lied about where you got my info and you lied about deleting my data from your database?
I like to think that after this he had a revelation and switched careers, but more likely he moved on to prey on another sucker.
EDIT: This was from a new recruitment address. Most recruitment emails I receive get filtered and receive an automated response telling them politely that I'm not interested in their services.
This response gives the recruiter an opportunity to present a fairly decent pitch, while giving the recipient the ability to screen a more complete pitch instead of a truncated note.
https://medium.com/@calcsam/the-next-time-a-recruiter-pings-...
Only because enough people accept that to shift the power away from would-be employees. If there is really a shortage of good tech workers, as employers keep claiming, then they have the power -- all they have to do is choose to exercise it. Make the would be employers (and the recruiters acting as their agents) establish that its worth your time to even bother considering the work they want done by putting numbers on the table first.
My gutfeeling tells me that is was around 50-60%
Might suggest a sub-section under Job Description-- who does this role report to? (Give me their name).
Usually they claim that everything is so secret etc.
But an appropriate response would be-- 'reports to the VP Engineering, will share full details once we've had a live conversation and decide to move forward'
It does not seem rude to me to reply to someone with a brief salutation and a request to complete some forms when that is what they are requesting you do as well.
Consider that you have no societal/politeness obligation to reply to any sales (and recruiting is sales) email, ever. You can just ignore/filter with abandon.
These folks are eating up your most precious resource - your time.
and , curious how many recruiters go through this?
60% of them replies but most of them with the same info as in the email. I bin those.
Some of them get it an like it, I tend to like them a little more.
srs.
But probably not worth it, if it doesn't degrade nicely.
1. Name - This is already in emails I get from recruiters
2. Email - Useful since LinkedIn emails typically don't include their actual email
3. Phone Number - Ditto to #1; they typically include it
4. How did you find me - Considering you stated this is in reply to LinkedIn recruiters; LinkedIn?? ...
5. Name of the company - Most recruiters will not share this information until you have gone through the process more. What is to stop you from ignoring them and contacting companies directly once they give this? This is a poor choice and will drive away recruiters. I do see this is not a required field, but that is not obvious at first glance.
6. Location - You should consider converting this into a zipcode lookup or something. If not generic information such as state or city may be entered here. ( or possibly nothing/bogus info )
7. Job title - Often recruiters have multiple positions available depending on your experience and fit. Also job title doesn't necessarily mean anything. Half of the jobs I have had had no job title.
8. Job description - This is usually provided in the email I get from recruiters. That said, sometimes they don't so I can see the use. You might consider adding "Required skills" as a question also.
9. Yearly salary before taxes - This is a required field. If I were a recruiter I would ignore you at this point. You should be more interested in the opportunity not the exact pay. This looks like a money grab. Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure. Better than this would be a set of ranges; then you can ignore all requests in the ranges you would not accept. Gets you similar info but avoids the insult.
If you're already in a position that you enjoy, the dollar figure is certainly one of, if not the most important items on a cold call job offer. Asking them to open the discussion with a rough number is more than fair, in my book.
The most negative reaction I've ever gotten to something like "I'm happy with my job, and it would take a salary somewhere in the ballpark of $X to tempt me away, is that feasible?" was "If you're making anywhere near $X now I'm impressed.". The number I give for $X varies a little depending on their pitch - for example it goes up by at least $100k if they mention that they're looking for someone manage compliance for PCI-DSS, HIPPA, SOX or similar.
I love how everyone thinks their job is some amazing opportunity but won't back it up with something useful you can put towards maybe buying a place to live, like money.
Common courtesy. Not giving company name is a sign that the deal with the recruiter will likely not be a "win-win" arrangement.
> This is a poor choice and will drive away recruiters.
I think that's sort of a point of that form. There's way too much recruiter spam in tech, so it's good for you to get rid of the more exploiting ones.
> You should be more interested in the opportunity not the exact pay. This looks like a money grab. Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure.
I don't think this really applies to most programming jobs; the current trend in tech is to switch a job every couple of years.
If your desire is just to weed out recruiters, why not just say "fuck off" and see which ones still persist. This is nearly equivalent.
The whole attitude of "I want to know the salary since I intend to switch again in a couple of years" is exactly why I wouldn't hire people with this attitude.
> Having a good career is more important than a dollar figure
I consider a decent salary part of a good career. If it was just about doing stuff I care about I wouldn't work at all, I could do all those things without a job. Giving at least a salary range would be expected.
Dragging on initial email crap does not truly handle the situation.
As stated already, I think a range is reasonable. Asking the exact number is not.
No, I am not going to go outside and apply directly - I wouldn't get a higher salary that way.
Do you think the recruiter asks the employer? If so, there are two possible reasons: because it's pertinent information for candidates, or because the recruiter gets paid based on that info. If the former, no insult. If the latter, the recruiter is in familiar territory if so "insulted" by the candidate.
And nothing of value would have been lost. Any recruiter that isn't willing to disclose this is looking to lowball you.
I never answer calls from numbers I don't know. I rarely listen to voice mails from the same. How often do important calls come from unknown numbers? In my case, never.
If its a business thing, and they don't have my email address, chances are we don't have any relationship that will lead to anything productive.
For the most part, people are working to get paid. I see absolutely no need to sugar coat or dance around this simple fact.
There are problems with each of these surveys, but they all show java either in the lead or near the lead.
http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/01/14/language-rankings-1-15...
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index....
I worked on a java server application about 10 years ago and I get more recruiters contacting me about Java positions from that one item on my resume than I get from anything more recent or currently popular.
Drop it from your resume. Go ahead and leave the position and project description, but leave the language out.
Hating on all recruiters since a large percentage of them suck isn't fair.
Fair enough.
> If your desire is just to weed out recruiters, why not just say "fuck off" and see which ones still persist. This is nearly equivalent.
That's actually the reverse filter - it would weed out the ones you'd like to talk about, and leave out spammers.
> The whole attitude of "I want to know the salary since I intend to switch again in a couple of years" is exactly why I wouldn't hire people with this attitude.
In tech, most people you're recruiting already have a job. So I want to know the salary as an input for consideration if I care to leave my current position.
This circles back to the company name issue - if I am to treat a new job primarily as an "opportunity" for doing something good/interesting, I'll need to know a lot more than just what kind of skills they're looking for. I'd like to do my own research, and for that, I need the company name.
I don't say something like that until they know me a bit though. I have asked my current consultant group "What happens if I tell you to fuck off?" The guy responded "Well I wouldn't like it, but you do your job well and I wouldn't take it personally."
Let's assume we have two people, and for sake of discussion, both will only work 8 hours a day. Do you think enthusiasm will trump experience and profissionalism?
I don't follow the latest trends in frameworks/languages, I like solid solutions over start up mentality of ship fast and think over the problems and design good solutions for my clients. I work with SV startups that have all these people that 'care' but I'm still called to clean up their shit. And because of this, I make very very good money. I still won't work more than 8 hours a day, and except for a couple hours to unwind (HN, news, reddit) I don't even touch the computer and spend the time with my family/community. And I can tell you, if sweeping streets paid me more, I would be sweeping streets. I don't give a fuck about the work I do. Want me to work on oil platform, if you pay me, sure! A social network for gerbils, if you pay me, sure! HFT, if you pay me, sure!
In your position I'd be appreciative of that sort of honesty instead of encouraging folks to hide it since you have very different priorities.
Pay is hugely important in determining your quality of life. You can't just completely ignore the subject.
If the job opportunity being offered doesn't pay enough for you to afford your house or apartment, you can write it off no matter how interesting you might find the work.
And pay level is a huge contributor to stress levels.