What if they decide to remove a feature like Android removed "silent mode" as a feature...

Also, software will always be more buggy than hardware. The more software there is in something, the less reliable it is.

Powertrain upgrades?

I have both. If I need maps/browser/camera, I use my android phone, and moan at all the crappy UI issues and endless updates etc.

One of my worst gripes with android is just how often it changes the UI just as I'm about to click on something, so that I click on something else. It's maddening.

If I need a phone, I use my Nokia 3210 (With its ridiculously long battery life and far superior reception).

The fuse to make this work is an extra $10K. What battery pack or technology could be purchased for that?

"they need to have certain performance characteristics before they are widely accepted"

EVs need to be able to do 0-60 in 2.8s to be widely accepted??

In a Tesla, "my car crashed" has a whole new meaning.

Hold down the top steering wheel button on each side for several seconds, then release. That'll reboot the instrument cluster. Hold down both scroll wheels for several seconds and release -- that will reboot the center console. Perfectly safe while driving, and everything still works.

Everything that Tesla considers essential, of course. You can't tell how fast you're going while the instrument cluster is rebooting, and you can't hear the turn signal while the center console is rebooting. You also can't lock the doors while the center console is rebooting, but apparently no one at Tesla ever lived or stopped the car in a dangerous neighborhood.

900 miles in a day is stretching it, but not entirely out of the question. You can sustain a long distance average speed of about 55-60MPH (counting time for stops) in a Model S 85. It will be slower than you could do in a gas car if you push it. If you don't push it, it won't be any slower, and could even be faster. (Refueling a gas car takes a lot less time, but can't really be done concurrently with other things. If you were going to get coffee or whatever at each charging stop regardless, then you're looking at 5 minutes for gas versus zero for electricity. Accomplishing this with perfection is, of course, a bit of a challenge.)

Note that an hour every 300 miles isn't generally how you'd do it. Charging is faster the closer your battery is to empty, so your best bet is to work in the bottom ~50% of your charge range when possible, and spend ~20 minutes charging at intervals of ~150 miles. You'll note that this is about how far apart Tesla's superchargers are spaced. That, to me, is about the right interval for a quick coffee, bathroom, or stretch break. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

The biggest problem with your particular trip isn't the time for charging, but the general lack of charging infrastructure along the shortest route. If you route through superchargers, the distance is about 300 miles longer due to the need to take I-70 into Kansas to follow the chargers. This should improve with time, and current owners will benefit, but until it does there are some trips that are just not as good with superchargers. But improvements there pay off a lot better than improvements in range beyond 300 miles.

Don't forget that strength-to-weight is a big determinant of acceleration, so the new Roadster wouldn't necessarily need to be AWD. (and here's hoping it's not!)

There are plenty of Benzes, BMWs, and domestic sports/sporty cars with massive acceleration "despite" being RWD. (See all the Viper vs Model S videos, for example)

A Model S drivetrain in something that isn't 2200kg long-wheelbase sedan would be amazing :)

It is actually possible that the suspension was affected by the update. It wouldn't be the first time that the suspension's behavior has been tweaked by a software update to the Model S.

> Someone stepping on the pedal and being where a pedestrian is in 2 seconds could be very fatal for inexperienced drivers.

Probably far more likely to be fatal for the pedestrian

Tesla may axe the battery swap: http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/

I don't get that part about a styling void, but I agree with the rest.

In practice, carriers and manufacturers do not tend to release updates for Android phones other than Nexus once the shinier model has come out a few months later.

One of the major selling points of the iPhone is that it will continue to receive full OS updates for 2+ years.

Continuing software upgrades are pretty Apple-specific in the smartphone market, but it's also just as true of Windows and Linux in the desktop space.

>Tesla is thinking about their cars as hardware + software

the electric cars are pretty much gadgets (especially the way Tesla did their car - everything what is possible is implemented in software vs. hardware) where is typical ICE car is mostly hardware.

This is why Apple is getting into electric car business - because Apple has great skills doing gadgets while it is obvious (at least to me) that oily ICE car is alien to Apple.

I.e. while electric and ICE car both share "car" term and both do the same function for end-user and have the same 4 wheels/tires/brakes/etc..., they are actually 2 different things. You just add to your iTunes new gadget - iCar - and it gets synched with your other iPhones/iPods/etc... . Google's self-driving "cutie" of course will get connected to Google Cloud/Play/etc... . No Ford or GMC can do that and thus they would be relegated to the roles of Samsung - chip solders.

You'd be better off raising the ride height as the dynamics of raising the ride height will increase downforce on the wheel/tire assembly at the start of the transient.

It probably will do that. Atleast to compensate for the added apparent weight on the rear at acceleration. And slightly decrease air flow resistance under the car. Formula 1 cars do something like that

According to Edmunds, the MSRP on the Model S 60 (the base model) is $79,570. The average price paid in my area is $79,570. I don't actually know, but I suspect Tesla does not haggle on price.

The MSRP for the Leaf is $30,585, and average price paid in my area is $25,682.

Edmunds does not account for tax subsidies. I think we can both twiddle the numbers in our favor. So the question is, what are the actual cost of ownership of these cars? I still strongly suspect, the Leaf costs roughly 1/3 of the Tesla and is roughly 1/3 of a car.

I bought a LEAF SL in Dec for $31K and change before $10K in credits. That was less than a third the cost of a Model S after rebates, IIRC.

On the downside, range is closer to 75 miles in the winter (driving normally for MA, meaning fairly fast) and a pretty regular 90-95 miles in the summer.

Overall, I love it. It's no Tesla and is not a economic winner over a good used car, but it's a damned good car and I think it's one of the most economic of the new cars, even with MA insane cost of electricity.

Saying "twice the car/half the car", like they're pints and quarts, doesn't really make sense, though.

The Nissan Leaf is intended to be a city (or at least "close in suburb") car. With my 10 mile/20 minute commute, in a city with horrible public transportation, makes the Leaf ideal. Especially since I can afford a Leaf, a Model S not so much.

If you turn off data and don't use the screen, you'll get much better battery life (and have approximately the same feature set as your old phone).

Old phones didn't have apps that required constant connectivity and didn't have screens at all, essentially.

So the problem is that this is comparing yesterday's phone with today's pocket-sized computer.

Note: you can still buy a feature phone today if you'd like.

I've found I need to do a factory refresh every time there is an Android OS upgrade, because my battery life goes in the tank. ADB shows processes going crazy, trying and retrying to access things that are no longer there.

I just got a Fiat 500e, it is a bad ass car, and definitely doesn't feel like a test or prototype. It gets more like 85 miles (it better, it's much smaller than a Leaf), and works for almost all the transportation I need. I haven't bothered to set up a high voltage charger or anything, and I've been amazed by the convenience of it.

I agree though, they should really be pushing these electric cars. They're awesome. They're a pleasure to drive. I hate going back to gas, just shifting and the low torque are noticeable and now annoying. Maybe they just suck at advertising (doubtful) or they have other motives.

The VW e-Golf and BMW i3 are no less cars than the Leaf is. The e-Golf in particular competes directly with the Leaf, offering similar features and price. The i3 is pretty pricy, but it is a BMW after all.

Good point. It's pretty sad that even Android phones have a worse track record than a car with this stuff.

Is it really that different from the performance parts divisions of the major auto makers? Like Toyota uses TRD to build and sell aftermarket parts that you can get installed at the Toyota dealer. Mercedes does it with AMG, Ford with Ford Performance, etc...

Their patents, yes. That's just the beginning.

Now all that one needs to do is to poach their battery engineers. And build their own factories. And iron out the kinks.

It's not like a competitor will be able to get their tech and beat them at their own game overnight - while delivering a cheaper product!

Wheel base is actually one of those things that can be beneficial both ways, depending on the type of tracks you're racing, but weight is always bad

My point is that the vast, vast, vast amount of products out there don't have auto-update. This includes my morning cereal, my fancy designer dustbin, my bicycle, my microwave, and my 2-year old son's favourite teddybeardogthing.

To only call something a product when it has auto-update is such ridiculous HN navel gazing that it's just funny.

EDIT: removed useless rant for fear of losing even more internet points!

Are those updates over the air, or do you need to take it to a dealer to apply them?

My predecessor to the Mazda3 (Protege5) was my second Mazda and convinced me that it would likely be my last because over at least a 6 year period Mazda didn't manage to figure out "polish" in cars.

The P5 and predecessor Protege were fun to drive, worked OK, etc. but both were their high-end trimlines and my experiences with the two cars gave me the feeling that Mazda was prone to leaving out stupid really cheap stuff that would have drastically improved the feel/experience of the vehicles.

The examples that still jump out at me are:

* a front passenger door with no internal power lock switch - using the key on the outside you could lock/unlock everything, but from the inside passenger seat you had to lean over to hit the switch on the driver's door. Likely manufacturing cost savings? Maybe $5 including labor? I'd be surprised if the switch and wires would have cost more than $1 at car manufacturer volumes.

* trunk carpeting that was basically nylon felt placed on top of a smooth plastic spare tire cover - not attached anywhere, just sitting there where anything on it would just cause the whole piece of carpet to slide all over the trunk. My fix was 5 hook sides of wide adhesive-backed industrial Velcro. Worked for years with no problem, cost if done at the factory? Probably less than $0.50, but it might have cut into the options of selling aftermarket trunk liners so maybe it was intentional.

* cupholders that were not in fact deep enough to retain any cup, can or bottle commonly sold in US convenience stores during a turn. Make a sporty little car with a stiffened suspension, put in a 5-speed manual, then require that drivers going through curves at speed or turns without a full stop have to hold any beverages in the cupholders or have them go flying underfoot.

The cars themselves were fine for 100-135k miles each and there were workarounds I could put in place for everything, but stupid little crap like that still makes me feel like if they don't care enough to take cheap steps like that then what more expensive things are they skipping?

Hello. I've just ran into the problem of the reboot loop on my Mazda and have an appointment with the dealership on Tuesday. Could you specify how you fixed this issue yourself?

What watchdog do you mean? I've ssh'd into my Mazda3 and was planning on doing it again soon, but I don't know what you mean by that.

Thanks for pointing me to that. I had no idea that stuff existed!

Kind of awesome, I think you mean.

I would say that acceleration, forward and backward, in the 55-80 area is critical to safety.

Maybe that is sold? Per this [1] article from May their delivery per quarter is about 10K units, so about 40K/yr.

I'll update my reply.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2015/05/12/tes...

Well, SpaceX uses inconel. They also must have a quite good understanding of pyrotechnics, as they need to use that in a lot of places, eg. stage separation.

So I'd say yes, at least on the tech transfer part.

Hopefully once they iron out the kinks in space travel they can release it to the Tesla with a software upgrade, or maybe an even better fuse!

IIRC, it's actually Toyota that's the world's most popular car maker (by number of cars sold, at 10.23 million last year), not VW; this has been the case for the last 3 years [0]. VW is very close behind, though, at 10.14 million (and GM is close behind that at 9.92 million).

Not to say that your point is inaccurate (it's actually very accurate; the ability for companies like Toyota to drive down costs goes a long way toward mass adoption, and it's something that "luxury" makers like Porsche don't typically have the experience in). Tesla could very well be an exception here, since the big focus as of late is to ramp up manufacturing until Model-whatevers (and, in particular, their batteries) can flow out of factories at ludicrous speeds.

[0]: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/113...

So, anecdotally, low end Porsche models have sold well, like the Boxster and Cayman, and high end VW models have often not sold well, like the Phaeton.

Aren't VW and Porsche part of the same company?

>Lots of business research says this is not true, and in fact, the opposite.

I just named an example that makes very obvious sense to a bunch of people even without evidence (though I'm sure Cayenne sale numbers would back it if I had to). You allude to "a lot of research" claiming the opposite. Care to share said research?

Your example of VW being popular is an example of absolute market position and is entirely irrelevant to debate as to whether its easier to move from the low end of the market t the top or vice versa.

But, isn't the lifetime of the battery pack significantly lower than the (presumed) lifetime of the actual car? If your Model S stays on the road 20 years but requires 3-4 battery replacements, that's several big hits against its environmental friendliness.

That's my understanding, but it's important to keep this in mind when touting the merits of battery tech. Of course, the battery production and charging process can become drastically more green (and will do so once the Gigafactory is operational), so even this is somewhat of a moot point.

Please see my other response in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9905275

The carbon footprint of producing the battery, even not considering the chemicals, is very large. So much so that you'd have to drive it on many years from a full-renewable source for you to break even with a regular car[1]. Tesla, sadly, maximizes the battery in their cars.

My read is that their main goal is selling batteries and everything from opening their "patents" (i.e. their custom connectors/battery pack) to the home wall-pack is designed to do that.

[1] http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media/files/BatteryElectricV... (page 7 with relevant graph) Also http://www.enveurope.com/content/pdf/2190-4715-24-14.pdf (page 10/11)

> That gives it much better handling characteristics than an equivalent ICE car.

Yes but the equivalent ICE car by weight is... an SUV, or one of those old, massive cadillacs.

The P85D is a heavy, heavy car at just under 5,000 lbs. Whereas something ilke the Aventador is 3,400 lbs (and it's on the heavier end of the sports car spectrum).

But regardless while a low CoG is nice, it doesn't change the basic physics of you need to alter the direction of 5,000 lbs and you are not going to do that as well as altering the direction of 3,400 lbs.

It [Tesla Model S CoG = 17.5-18"]'s competitive with supercars, i.e. that of the Ford GT [1], and better than the Porsche Boxster [2], which is not a supercar.

[1] http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1301_2013_motor_tren...

[2] http://www.caranddriver.com/features/tesla-model-s-60-2015-1...

Not sure if these are correct figures, but http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/01/usa-minivan-sales-figur... says the Chrysler Town & Country sold 138k, and the Dodge Caravan sold 134k, this appears to be US only data; and these two vehicles are really the same vehicle with different trim, so that's about 10 times the number of Tesla vehicles.

In the US, and Minivans aren't the most popular type of cars. Here is just BMW sales in 2014:

http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_rela...

You just completely ignored the question you replied to.

You should at least do it the justice of pointing out what the driver said:

>The lap itself was around 10 minutes Bridge to Gantry (in heavy traffic) but unfortunately the car went into a reduced power mode about 3 minutes in due to excess battery heat (at least, that’s my guess).

>However, before it did it was able to keep a GT3 RS going full chat, within shouting distance (at the 2:00 mark) far longer than any 4,700lb sedan has a right to.

>I think without the reduced power output and traffic, a B-T-G lap under nine minutes is possible. According to the Bridge To Gantry site, that would put it in the company of some really quick hot hatches.

Exactly, yet people who have no clue about cars will say that because it has a faster 0-60 time it's a faster car. Teslas marketing department is damn good.

Here I am trying to imagine a vehicle with infotainment but without a steering wheel. It raises so many questions!

Do you assume that we will purchase self driving cars frequently enough that the infotainment will keep pace? Do you anticipate purchasing a personal train or fighter jet? Do the handlebars on a motorcycle count as a steering wheel?

I'm all for new technology on automobiles, but made the software open source? In order to work on these computers on wheels, mechanics need access to trouble codes, and information on this new technology. They aren't giving it up to independent repair shops. We are being forced to bring our ailing computers to Dealerships, at dealership prices?

I know a dealership mechanic and he told me even with the proprietary scan tool, and access to the companies database; he spends hours a week learning every new upgrade, and feature these newer cars/trucks are implementing. He said it's usually on the customer's dime.

We need to standardize, and I believe, even mandate that if a person buys a automobile; they will have access to all the repair information for that particular vechicle.

I foresee a junk yards getting bigger, and bigger, with cars that no one car work on, or worse--just crushing the vechicle when that transmission with 10 sensors, and two computers fails?

A note to mechanics; I know the amount of ongoing learning you gave to do in order to keep your job. I know your employer expects you to learn this new technology on your time. If these vechicles keep going in the direction I think we are already at(too complicated, and car companies refusing to release data), it might me a the right time to unionize in certain counties? With unionization you could afford Lobbiests, and in the end you would be paid what you are worth, with retirement benefits? With paid training on all these propiatiary systems? (I think the San Francisco Bay Area could pull off a union takeover?)

Basically, when I buy a car--I don't want to be forced to bring it to a dealership in order to repair! I gave a family member who has a 1996 Dodge Dakota. After years of working on it, I can repair the vechicle, but I spent a lot of time learning how to flash the computer, and only got the software because I have a buddy at a dealership. I told him, if he buys a new vechicle--I probally won't be able to repair it for free. I told him to drive it until it blows up. We are not a wealthy family.

Has long irritated me that car audio systems have a discernible boot time, having come from the days of instant-on radios. There really is no excuse, between optimizing the boot process and starting it the moment the car starts (not like there's that much of a draw, speakers off, from the alternator).

That is strange, part of why I love the Outback I own is because it's dashboard is so simple and lacks fluff. Must of been a heavily upgraded model or something.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't enough to make me hate the rest of the car. It drives great. About the only thing I use the infotainment system for is the neat fuel consumption statistics screen.

So, did you end up buying a different vehicle? If so, which one?

Can't wait until self driving cars become the norm; I don't need a drive way, a garage and the suburb I can live in can have smaller roads with the space for cars given over to walking paths and bicycles. Maybe in 2050.

This is precisely what I meant, yes :)

Nice idea...

As an employee you could get the ride in the car free, as a perk, iff you watch the educational material and pass a test on it. This would be assessed during the ride via onscreen multiple-choice questions; get less than 50% correct (or, turn it off) and you have to pay for the journey!

Why use it for creative purposes when you can use it to show ads? Talk about a captive audience. I'm betting that Google is going so big into driverless cars so they can show you ads on the windshield once it's proven + accepted as safer than human drivers. It might take 20 years, but they're opening up a new advertising channel.

I agree with you right now, but is that still an issue for self-driving cars? Ideally I want to get in, say drive to work, and then take a nap. If I still need to pay attention then it's not really a self-driving car just an upgraded form of cruise control.

That the 240 was the same car for 20 years is an absurd claim. It's well known that the NHTSA bought and tore apart multiple 240s when they were updating the US auto safety standards in the 80s. It's also well known that Volvo has one of the most thorough and well-funded safety R&D departments in the world. The 1993 240 received five stars in crash testing from the NHSTA [1].

As for your 960: I can't comment on the ergonomics, never having been in one, but I know for sure that you can still get parts for it in Europe.

[1] http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Shoppers/5-Star+Safety+Ratin...

My RAV4 and my wife's Outback both have backup cameras, and the display is inset in the rear view mirror.

A much better system, IMHO, and doesn't mandate a nav system style screen.

> The GTR is 2.9 seconds, so the tesla is faster- Its also faster in the 1/4 mile as well, so this is kind of a big deal.

Not until the Tesla goes around the Nurburgring in the same fashion the GTR did.[1][2]

[1] http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/86123/fastest-nurburg...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nords...

The Ariel Atom 500 (with the V8) is a little bit faster at 2.3 seconds 0-60. However it's not really a daily driver kind of car like the Tesla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIiWhWpzFQQ

They're very similar, 2.8 vs 2.9 is not that big of a deal. The GT-R NISMO is perhaps even faster but again, fairly similar. Regardless these are expensive cars (>$100k) with impressive performance no doubt. It's worth pointing out that the Tesla P85D is not the only 100k car with that performance available.

>I believe this is the fastest production car under 300k that you can buy.

The 2014 Porsche 911 Turbo S was tested by Car and Driver at 2.5 seconds 0-60, and it's ~$200K, depending on options: http://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/911-turbo-turbo-s

I suspect the 2015 Turbo S might be a bit quicker.

Well it's no big deal because the GTR is one league above in term of sport racing, this car is incredible on track, there is no way that Tesla will match that.

Quick ≠ Fast

(Acceleration vs top speed, agility, etc...)

The sub-two-second club is pretty slim. Zeroto60times.com has a pretty comprehensive list:

http://www.zeroto60times.com/2-second-cars-0-60-mph-times/

The Tesla is the only sedan on the list. The majority of the cars are mid/rear engine super cars or track-day cars that you wouldn't care to drive every day. Any way you slice it, this is remarkable company.

Mercedes-AMG E63S 4matic with 590hp ~$105k does it in 3.5s, and that is very fast. The Tesla is indeed ludicrous.

What would you have him do with a functional but old car otherwise? Crushing a car that is functional and building a new modern car to replace it takes a little north of 125 Gigajoules of energy.

An older functional car may be better for the planet than destroying and replacing it.

Blame subsidized gas; not everyone can afford to act as if it were priced correctly.

Nice choice! I opted not to get the M6 because I wanted something closer to ~3400lbs, which is about what the 911 GTS is, but you can't go wrong with a twin-turbo V8!

Though now that I'm in the middle (well, almost done with the first version) of building https://recent.io/ it means more screen time and less driving...

Most definitions of a production car require that they are mass produced rather than made to order as well as being an original design rather than an aftermarket mod of a production car. I'm not sure of the exact sales model of the Atom 500, but wikipedia says it was a limited edition with only 25 made. Calling it a production car would be generous.

look up dual-clutch transmissions. agreed though, nothing's faster than not having to shift at all. the downside of a single gear may be limitation at top speed.... maybe.

Twin-clutch ICEs are pretty darn smooth acceleration.