What if you didn't need money or attention?

What if you didn't need money or attention?(sivers.org)

395 points by bjcubsfan 12 years ago | 299 comments

k2enemy 12 years ago |

I've been reading about stoicism lately (the ancient philosophy, not the adjective for lack of emotion) and I think that practicing stoics have some nice tools to help people out with this.

One of the primary ways that stoics find tranquility is by "wanting what you already have" instead of "wanting what you don't have." Easier said than done, so they offer some tools to help, inluding negative visualization (imagining life without things you care about), only worrying about things you have control over, and occasionally denying yourself pleasures.

I'm not doing the subject justice, but here's an easy to read book that condenses a lot of their ideas and applies them to modern life: http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/01953.... And of course Wikipdeia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

ChristianBundy 12 years ago | |

Here's a short excerpt from a talk by Alan Watts that I find incredibly powerful:

"What if Money Was No Object" - https://youtu.be/C_sbcSRMsOc

If you're looking for something longer and more in-depth, the late David Foster Wallace's talk on a similar subject is incredibly sincere and motivating:

"This Is Water" - http://youtu.be/dexIA_OfLzg

reshambabble 12 years ago | | |

It's so interesting how our generation is so deeply interested in this idea - what would we do if money wasn't an issue? I really loved this video - a good reminder to feel okay to break the "traditional" structure and pursue happiness.

agumonkey 12 years ago | | |

almost superficial remark, the video quality was contrasting with the wisdom, here's an HD version http://vimeo.com/63961985

ps: it's a bit looking at the finger pointing to the moon but anyway. pps: thanks for the links

hvass 12 years ago | |

For an intro to stoicism you should start with Seneca's letters and Marcus Aurelius' Meditations before you jump into Guide to the Good Life (which I do not recommend, despite Derek's praise of it)

Also, check out the upcoming book 'The Obstacle is the Way' by Ryan Holiday - http://www.amazon.com/The-Obstacle-Is-Way-Timeless/dp/159184...

benrhughes 12 years ago | | |

A Guide to the Good Life has its issues, particularly around complicating simple ideas (for example, his "trichotomy of control" adds nothing at all the the basic dichotomy, other than confusion).

However, he does a good job of giving a basic introduction and framing for Stoic concepts. I think it's easier to digest the Romans (particularly the concise and acerbic style of Epictetus) if you are somewhat familiar with the subject. I got much, much more from Epictetus than I did from Irvine, but he is, I think, a valuable on-ramp.

I'm also not sure what the big deal is with Marcus Aurelius. Compared with The Enchiridion and even Seneca's letters, it's haphazard and dull. I'll give it another shot once I'm done with all of Seneca's letters.

Personally, I would start with Irvine, then the George Long translation of The Enchiridion (it's more poetic than the Carter translation, IMO). I'm about half way through Seneca's Letters, and while enjoyable, he takes a long time to cover the same insights as Epictetus.

(aside: on my 3rd or 4th reading of The Enchiridion, I wrote brief notes on each part, which you can find at http://thiscodinglife.com/dissecting-epictetus/intro)

sramsay 12 years ago | | |

Both amazing, but I think I prefer Epictetus' Discourses to either one.

I'm not a big fan of Guide to the Good Life either -- mostly because I think it takes a very profound (and by no means simple or obvious) set of ideas and reduces it to a kind of intellectual fad diet.

For something weightier, you might look at the works of Pierre Hadot (Philosophy as a Way of Life and What is Ancient Philosophy?), both of which contain excellent discussions of stoicism.

pabb 12 years ago | |

It's funny, I've heard of the term stoicism in the philosophical regard, but never knew what it was, and yet now I'm reading that it embodies a lot of what I've felt for years.

Growing up, my family never had much, and I always had to make due with simple activities. Luckily enough I got immersed in the Internet at a young age, because I was able to inherit outdated computers, but never had the fancy toys or gadgets or games that my friends did. I had to find ways to entertain myself with very little, and since then my interests have always revolved around a very small subset of simple, low-fidelity activities. Drawing (materials are universal), weightlifting (free-weights only), programming (self explanatory).. Things that I know could never really be taken from me.

As I'm preparing to graduate college, I've told friends and family that I never want to own a car, or a house. I haven't owned a bed in two years. The only major purchases I want are a decent laptop, which I consider a necessity for a software developer, and books. I want the tools I need to live and grow my skills and intellect.

In that sense, I probably take the modern translation of stoicism too far. But then again, I'm easily fulfilled.

scott_karana 12 years ago | | |

As long as your choices don't negatively impact yourself, or your family and friends, I'd say "keep it up!"

tedks 12 years ago | |

Stoicism seems like it would be relevant to a Roman. If you had no air conditioning and very little good things, being stoic would probably make you pretty happy.

We're not in ancient Rome anymore.

I don't see any reason for modern humans to be stoic. It seems like a great way to stagnate. When you can't change your environment, it makes sense to change your mind to accept your environment. When you can, self-modification is harmful. It lets you accept things you could change if you worked to to change them.

Stoicism seems to be at odds with a personal drive towards self-improvement. It doesn't seem relevant to modern environments where this improvement is possible.

autodidakto 12 years ago | | |

Stoicism isn't anti-improvement. Epictetus was an abused slaved, then philosophical leader. Seneca was rich and was tutor and adviser to the emperor. Marcus Aurelius was the emperor.

Yes, Stoicism teaches you that you don't have (at least ultimate) control over the world. But it does emphasize that you have control over yourself. You internalize your goals: Instead of "winning the tennis championship" it's "be the best player I can possibly be despite circumstance".

graeme 12 years ago | | |

Let me assure you that, having gone through a very major health crisis, stoicism is eminently useful, and practical. I have lost things that are impossible to recover. And I'm doing pretty good, thanks.

There are some things you really cannot change. We can change more than we used to, but not everything. Stoicism helps.

And we also change things we don't need to change. We chase after things that bring us no happiness. By allowing you to be happy with what you have, stoicism lets you seek those things that truly matter.

itcmcgrath 12 years ago | | |

Perhaps looking at it in a less black and white manner would show where it could help.

For instance, I work with Enterprise Software but not with cars. Perhaps being Stoic towards my material possessions( such as liking my Honda and stop looking at the Maserati I don't need) while still driving towards improvements in the areas that matter, such as my relationships (family, friends, strangers) and career (software, etc)?

vacri 12 years ago | | |

I don't see any reason for modern humans to be stoic

We don't have the resources to keep all modern humans in the manner to which those in developed countries have become accustomed.

monkeynotes 12 years ago | | |

"Man is disturbed not by things, but by the views he takes of them."

Since 'improvement' is so often a subjective quality the stoics may perhaps suggest you rebase what you consider to be self improvement.

What if one could find a way of being happy regardless of 'self improvement' drives?

If happiness is the objective and you can be happy without changing your environment, even if changing the environment is trivial, what's the difference?

aufreak3 12 years ago | | |

Be it stoicism or any school of thought that recommends a way of life, the key fallacy to avoid fall into is that it is these principles that make you happy, or productive, or wealthy, or healthy or whatever. While such principles can be temporarily crutch for a person, over time the crutch gains the status of legs instead of people using it to learn to walk.

My mind keeps coming up with generalizations all the time. For example, "the more space you have for your family, the less valuable time together you spend". Needless, useless generalizations like this about just about everything. So I've formed a mental habit of just pausing and asking "really?" .. and soon these just go poof.

In other words, I automatically question the validity of any concept I construct. This way, I'm free to stick to one temporarily and have no qualms about abandoning concepts that aren't valid for me.

The nice thing about Derek's post is that he's just posing the question and leaving it to the reader to ruminate on what answer would mean to them. The skill to pick up here is to ask these kinds of questions ... like all the time.

sramsay 12 years ago | | |

"When you can, self-modification is harmful. It lets you accept things you could change if you worked to to change them."

I think "changing the things you can" (as Niebuhr once put it) is precisely the second half of the stoic idea. In fact, not changing things that by rights should be changed runs contrary to virtue, which the stoics held as the chief -- and indeed, the only -- true good.

arg01 12 years ago | | |

Your forgetting that some things can't be changed with respect to other things. I may hate the commute to work, but otherwise find my job great and my house great. I may have optomised that commute as much as possible already (audio books, a nice car, best route) but it is still the worst part of my day. If I behave more in line with stoicism then this no longer worries me as much. Sure this may stop innovation by me in that particular area but I'm still inovative in other areas and people who are better able to tackle that issue are the ones that can deal with it (if indeed there is a better soloution).

agumonkey 12 years ago | | |

Improvement is also a very fuzzy notion, it really depends how you wanna look at things.

caio1982 12 years ago | |

I'm really glad to read such comment. You do a service to other HN fellas mentioning stoicism as a way to "solve" this kind of problem. After a few years reading and studying stoic works (such as Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, already mentioned in this thread) I can say I'm finally good with myself and I could not recommend it enough for other geeks and nerds who eventually find themselves in such negative mindset. Hackers: read the old philosophers, you'll do yourself a favor, your mind will thank you. Modern life is nearly unbearable when you don't have the tools to fix it.

janj 12 years ago | |

The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking

This book was my first introduction to stoicism. I loved the book and idea behind stoicism. I meant to find more but had forgotten about it. Thanks for the book suggestion.

nextweek2 12 years ago | |

My biggest problem with being happy with what I have is the lack of motivation to improve and better myself.

bradleysmith 12 years ago | | |

I've found there are two particular thoughts that need to occur for the "motivation to improve and better myself" to manifest itself.

1) honest love for oneself; a belief that bettering oneself is not a completely selfish goal, but actually helps everyone and everything else in your life that you care about (insofar as you interact with them)

2) an honest belief that energy spent on self-improvement is effective; if I try to change myself in this way or that and am unsuccessful, it makes the next attempt much harder to get started.

just my two cents.

ermintrude 12 years ago | | |

Wrong. Your biggest problem is believing you have to improve yourself.

rneill 12 years ago | | |

This is a fairly common complaint with stoicism. Just because you're happy with what you have doesn't mean you can't also be intrinsically motivated to make life better for yourself and others. But it also leaves you in the wonderful state wherein you don't mind the outcome of your efforts because you were already happy with your state to begin with. It's a fuller appreciation of what you can control and what you can't and the in-between states where you can control your inputs but not the output. You start to set goals that focus only on the actions you have complete control over and don't worry about the outcomes you can't control.

tsax 12 years ago | | |

Interesting. For me, being happy starts positive reinforcement cycles that enable further learning and growth.

jacoblyles 12 years ago | |

The original works of Seneca and Epictetus are also surprisingly applicable to modern life, and their problems are surprisingly relatable. I recommend Seneca's "On the Shortness of Life" and Epictetus's handbook in modern translation.

njharman 12 years ago | |

> "wanting what you already have"

Sounds very much like Taoist teachings as well. Desire, in its many forms, never results in happiness.

whytaka 12 years ago | | |

How can people say this without giving the slightest reflection over their own lives and moments of happiness? I've had plenty of moments where desire-satisfaction has granted me happiness. Sometimes even without the satisfaction, the desire itself had given me a sense of worth and a life path that I found exciting and joyful.

benrhughes 12 years ago | | |

IME there's a massive but not that often discussed overlap with Stoicism and Buddhism. I'll have to look into Taoism a bit too now.

saraid216 12 years ago | |

> And of course Wikipdeia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

Incidentally, if you're moved to get broad outlines of philosophical things, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy tend to be better resources:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/

http://www.iep.utm.edu/stoicism/

sremani 12 years ago | |

virtue and tranquility.

ritchiea 12 years ago |

I try to think this way. One thing I try to do is not work too much, so I had been freelancing trying to keep my hours to around 25 a week. It freed up time to do other things, I was learning to play guitar and working on some film scripts (I am using "was" because I decided to take on a full time programming gig until June but even this I didn't take for the money, it's way below market, I took the job because it sounded interesting).

One problem I encountered was people just not "getting it." And I don't mean random strangers, I mean potential clients. It's oddly difficult to tell people "I make enough money to support my lifestyle working 25 hours a week and I like to save the rest of my time for other projects that interest me." They expect you to be "doing more" or see you as lazy, after all why not make the most money you can possibly make at all times? When in fact I think I'm far less lazy than most people, I put a ton of effort into coding, educating myself, going the extra mile, working on projects for fun, reading technical books, going to talks. I'm also very serious about my pursuits beyond my programming "day job." And yet I've found it difficult to convey that, and that clients consider me unserious because I was intentionally working less than 40 hours a week even if they are looking for someone for a part time role.

dmlorenzetti 12 years ago |

Given money enough, and time, I definitely have things I would work on (mostly developing numerical algorithms for solving physical modeling problems, and expressing them in software). Yet, paradoxically, I worry about being given unconditional money and time to work on them.

Occasionally my wife and I talk about my quitting work, and us moving to Thailand (her native country). Her vision of my ideal life there is that I wouldn't have to work, and could sit around doing my pet projects without any time or money constraints.

That always strikes me as dangerous. Those projects I want to work on didn't jump into my head unbidden. The ideas arose from years of coming to grips with real-world problems that don't have entirely satisfactory solutions. If I untether myself from the work that led to the ideas I want to pursue, then where will the next ideas come from? And how will I know whether they are worth pursuing?

To me, having side projects that seem worth doing, especially from the point of being useful to others (Sivers' way of distinguishing what he means by "not just relaxing"), requires their being grounded in real-world projects. And one measure of the worth of real-world projects, like it or not, is that people are willing to pay to get them done.

janj 12 years ago |

I just finished a book about a man who has been living without money for over 10 years titled "The Man Who Quit Money". It's a different perspective on not needing money. Instead of having plenty of money this book is about a man who doesn't need any money at all because he chooses not to need money, he lives outside of the money system. The title of this post seems to include men like Suelo, the subject of the book, but the content of the post seems to exclude people like this as it focuses on having more than enough money instead of not needing money.

The book does a great job describing the evolution of this man's philosophy on living outside of the money system and what it has done for him. If at all interested I highly recommend it. Instead of trying to accumulate so much money you can't imagine needing more a healthy alternative might be to focus on reducing your need for money.

munificent 12 years ago |

> But what if you had so much money that you couldn't possibly want any more?

There's such a deeply narcissistic undercurrent here.

If you ever find yourself having too money money, what that means is you have too few people who you are using your resources to help.

Being rich shouldn't be, "Well, I've got a yacht and a motorcycle, I guess I'm good!" It should be, "Ah I finally have enough to help X. If only I could get more and help Y as well." You aren't rich enough until the whole world is rich with you.

josefresco 12 years ago |

I hate these theoretical scenarios because my practical brain kicks in and I start asking questions like:

Do I have lots of money making money not important/critical? Does everyone also not have to worry about money? Do my kids/family also have the same "money free" existence as me? Am I able to travel without incurring any cost? If I do have tons of money, am I allowed to spend it on other people/causes?

I don't need attention so that's not a concern, but the money issue is too complicated to simply take it out of the equation for me.

If I ignore my practical brain ... my priorities would be my kids, my wife, my immediate family and community in that order.

Spending time with my kids, making sure they have everything they need, most of what they want, and simply loving them (without being distracted by providing for them) would be the easiest and most gratifying part of not having to worry about money.

However being super-rich wouldn't solve any of these issues for me as I would feel a great burdon to help those in need. If my family was taken care of, the logically extends to my community, and those around the world most in need (similar to Gates) What a nightmare to know that you have more money than anyone and are in the best position (besides governments) to help people. I don't know how Bill sleeps at night.

cottonseed 12 years ago |

I've been thinking along these lines lately. I've never much cared for or been interested in attention. I'm totally comfortable with the fact I'm going to be forgotten. I've been very lucky and I don't have to worry much about money. I'm about to finish school. What do I do next? I basically have two answers: (1) Entertain myself. Learn things because I curious. Work on things because I think they're exciting or interesting, without worrying if they're useful or valuable. (2) Try to make socially valuable contributions. How do I best put my skills to work for others? Free software is one good model here. I've been trying to learn about the non-profit model.

I'm very interested to hear other people's thoughts.

joyeuse6701 12 years ago |

Propose this to the homeless and the destitute and see what sort of responses one receives. This is a fun thought experiment for the privileged. As a kid this is what was beaten into the minds of the soon to graduate out of college 'study what you love' they'd say. The idea was attractive to be sure.

But when it is about survival, when you don't have a cushion, an infrastructure that will provide for you, this sort of thing isn't an option, the rhetoric is really a sophistry. What one can glean from this is what many have already considered.

Make enough money, satiate yourself so that it's no longer a need, and then you really do have the freedom to pick and choose and do what you want. It is a rare sort of situation and person that can do this from the beginning to the end of their lives.

Work comes out of a necessity, for many of us it is not something you simply change your mind on, and you're suddenly free from the burden.

EDIT: spacing, wording

nine_k 12 years ago |

Just my 2¢.

I personally don't need piles of money. I could make 20% of what I'm making now, do what I love to do, and not feel strained. (Actually, I lived on much-much less.)

But I have a family to support, children to educate, etc, and this requires a lot of money. So yes, I'm looking for ways to make more money, like 10x, or even 100x of what I'm making now.

Also, unlike food, money does not cease to be useful in quantities you yourself cannot consume. I bet Bill Gates does not spend a million of his riches a day. The Gates Foundation possibly spends more, though—hopefully in a way Mr. Gates finds personally satisfying.

Dewie 12 years ago | |

> But I have a family to support, children to educate, etc, and this requires a lot of money. So yes, I'm looking for ways to make more money, like 10x, or even 100x of what I'm making now.

You must have a very large family to support/lot of college tuition to pay off.

nine_k 12 years ago | | |

I dislike debts, so I'd rather pay upfront, which might be a bit expensive.

Also, having 50-100 your yearly incomes invested effectively retires you and your family: you don't have to work for money any more and can pursue what you love. Exactly as the original article suggests.

rpearl 12 years ago |

Check your privilege. Most people don't have the opportunity to do what they love; they are just working to make ends meet. They don't have the ability to fall back to something safe if they fail. If they do not have a job they will simply not survive. They aren't looking to "benefit others" through their work, they just want to continue living.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/01/in-the-name-of-love/

forgottenpass 12 years ago | |

Most of the submitted article is spent acknowledging just how impractical the premise of the question is. Don't take it on it's own terms (I thought it was a dumb post for different reasons) but at least recognize it knows it's daydreaming.

Check your privilege.

Is this sentence used as anything other than a snub anymore?

Your point isn't worthless, but it reads like "wake up sheeple" posts of yesteryear. The writing is emotionally charged and confrontational as if you have something new to say. You're just reminding everyone of a world incongruity they came to grips with by adolescence. I'm not saying they are (or should be) fine with it, I'm saying your post is cliche and not helping.

You don't have to stop fighting the good fight, just consider how you're doing it. Or ignore me and post a link to a wiki page titled "tone argument" because your self-satisfaction for participating in a cause is more important to you than your efficacy at it.

Mz 12 years ago | |

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7432061

(Have I mentioned recently that I'm still homeless? Just wondering.)

Zarkonnen 12 years ago |

checks Maslow's hierarchy

Then you'd be focusing on self-actualisation. Lucky you.

kstenerud 12 years ago |

This post is a bit off.

Money is a tool, a form of power. You can desire power in order to accomplish things, or simply for the love of power.

Attention is something most people crave, and while it can provide a positive feedback loop of activity, it is not an end in and of itself.

But that's not all there is to life. There is experience, exploration & discovery, the act of creation, enrichment of the mind and body (knowledge and skill), service. Power can be used in order to accomplish these feats, and attention may result, but please keep them in their place lest they take ownership of you! A life spent pursuing them will soon leave you feeling empty.

ahomescu1 12 years ago | |

> Money is a tool, a form of power.

Money is also a simplifier of trade. I write software, my dentist fixes teeth. When I get a cavity and my dentist puts a filling, I don't pay him/her by giving them code, I give them dollars instead.

Do I have power over my dentist, since I can choose to not give them money? Sure, but then he/she will also not fix my cavities.

kstenerud 12 years ago | | |

You have the power to get your teeth fixed by someone. If you did not have money, you'd have to use other forms of power to get it done (calling a favor, threatening, bartering, etc), or perhaps you couldn't get it done at all because you lack any source of power that's sufficient.

whytaka 12 years ago | | |

Money becomes a power if you have a lot. Money then becomes more than just a medium of exchange, it becomes a capacity of will.

conductr 12 years ago |

Impossible to answer this honestly until you've reached that point. More than likely you will discover a passion for something that currently does not exist in your life. Life is never ending learning, including who you are today and how you are different than yesterday.

stcredzero 12 years ago |

I'm not so sure any normal human is free of the need for some kind of attention. To be kicked out of a group feels like death to us, because our mental machinery was formed to deal with a situation where it was often death. We value the regard of our peers because it's actually a life and death resource to us.

That said, humans are pretty horrific, when it comes down to it. Not that many creatures do the things to their own species that humans do as often as we do with as much enthusiasm.

incision 12 years ago |

1.) Nurture my family.

2.) Enable people to educate themselves. Public libraries were essential in building the mindset and providing the place and materials for me to drag myself out of poverty.

saraid216 12 years ago | |

> 2.) Enable people to educate themselves. Public libraries were essential in building the mindset and providing the place and materials for me to drag myself out of poverty.

Completely off-topic from the OA, but do you have any plans on this front? Plans, hopeless dreams, crazy ambitions, etc.

jonmb 12 years ago | | |

I think what Khan Academy has managed to do is very useful. If you are looking to improve the world's education, I'd get in touch with them.

Killah911 12 years ago |

I would be doing EXACTLY what I am doing now. Spaceflight software, startups and tons of volunteering.

I was at a point in my life where I seriously had to ask myself this question quite seriously. After much grief, I'm in a very happy place now. Not necessarily pleasurable, but happy. I help startups get launched, dreams turn to reality & I get to flex my geek muscles studying neuroscience and designing software that challenges me.

I realize that I am amongst the very lucky few. I recall the seriously hollow feeling. Being surrounded by stuff. I am fortunate enough to have friends (some billionaires) who surprisingly have not only dealt with this but have figured out some pretty awesome ways to live life without being an over the top Rap Star consumer. (which I unfortunately succumbed to for a while).

I have fewer cars, and other useless toys, but it's wonderful being free. Doing things because you want to and doing things to be happy (again not to be confused with pleasure). To be honest, it really doesn't take much to get there. You don't even have to be a millionaire.

Here's to doing... and realizing that the journey is the reward! Cheers to my fellow HNers looking beyond the bounds of modernism or most -isms.

kevando 12 years ago |

I can't over emphasize the importance of this message!!!!!!!!!!!!

After college, I worked for a 'prestigious' consulting firm and found immediate success in the perspective of my peers. Truthfully, I enjoyed it. That feeling faded quickly and the cubicle walls closed in and 13 months later I quit.

With no plan or direction, I moved back with my parents, who did not charge me rent and bought much of my food. In other words, I had nearly zero expenses with a stock pile of cash from my prior employer. I relaxed for 2 months before realizing that I could pretty much live this content life for like 25 years. $20k goes a long way with no expenses.

I started spending my time building websites for friends and found the work fascinating and completely rewarding. It's that curiosity and fulfillment that I seek out in everything I do. I have since created a life for myself and the $20k in savings is long gone so money still drives me.

But at least I know what motivates me. I know what I'd do if I could do anything and that is an incredible gift.

theothermkn 12 years ago |

> Not just “sit around and do nothing”, because that's still just relaxing. I mean after that, when you're ready to be useful to others again.
What would you do then, if you didn't need the money, and didn't need the attention?

Yes, we need money to live. We need attention to live, too.

What's interesting to me about that bit above is that it's presented in this sort of homiletic style, as if it's the distillation of experience down to some obvious and unquestionable core, but it's pernicious in that it's pure ideology.

"[W]hen you're ready to be useful to others again," does so much work in this regard. It frames entrepreneurship as a service that is situated within a matrix of rational choices and utilitarian moral justification. We do these things because they're legitimately useful, they just happen to make us filthy rich. This wealth, however serendipitous and embarrassing it might be, is also justified by the actual utility it provides. Zuckerberg is wealthy because Facebook is an unquestionable force for good.

The author continues, framing entrepreneurs as, at worst, misguided persons who move from being accidentally useful to being purposefully useful; Persons temporarily blinded by their universal needs for attention and money. Never mind the problem of defining exactly how much attention and money one needs--to say nothing of security and nutrition, arguably up for purchase, or love, validation, and a sense of growth, arguably not up for purchase--to...live? Survive? Get by? Flourish? Never mind all that, once that's taken care of, entrepreneurs like the author can now get back to their innately good core of, from the author's tagline, "mak[ing] useful things, and shar[ing] what [we] learn."

Look, fundamentally, entrepreneurs exist to get rich. The "problems" they "solve" are chosen for their profitability, and the rhetoric about utility is just a way to colonize the discourse and deflect attention from the obvious avarice of it all. On the level of manipulation, the level of stopping the hoi polloi from rising up and strangling you, it makes sense; Anyone too stupid to see they're, for example, making their personal lives worse with Facebook so that Zuckerberg can sell ads, isn't going to have the discretion or wisdom to run an economy after any misguided revolt, no matter how apparently justified.

As a means for understanding our own motivations and desires, our relationships to the game of Capitalism, these are the guilt-addled ramblings of emotionally crippled narcissists. Basic self-awareness demands that we do better.

sp332 12 years ago | |

Look, fundamentally, entrepreneurs exist to get rich.

What do the rest of us do?

edw519 12 years ago |

when you're ready to be useful to others again.

Again?

You just nailed the problem.

If everything you did was for others, then this discussion (and many like it) wouldn't even make sense.

You wouldn't "get burned out", "lose purpose", "get stressed out", "worry about competition", "procrastinate", or "lack motivation".

If your work, your art, or just your day-to-day activities were focused on delivering value to others, you'd be too busy having a ball and rejoicing in outcomes to worry about all this other stuff. And anyone who tells you otherwise (but we gotta eat first!), still doesn't get it.

Thanks, OP, for reminding us that as soon as we're not so full of ourselves, and understand our role as conduits of energy, the sooner everything else flows so nicely.

smacktoward 12 years ago | |

What? No. Doctors and nurses get burned out all the time. So do cops and EMTs. Just because you've dedicated your life to serving others doesn't mean that constantly being on the line to help others can't burn you out. In some ways it can even be more stressful, because when you're only out to help yourself, you can justify easing back every now and then to reduce the pressure. When you're helping others, it's harder to do that because of the feeling that you're failing them in their moment of need.

tluyben2 12 years ago |

OP is right in that you should at least do this experiment about the money as entrepreneur. If you had all the money in the world would you still be building what you are building? I have come to believe that if the answer is no that I am doing the wrong thing. Everything must at least be building toward what I think I need to do in life and that doesn't mean only making money to do them but activily working on it as well. It makes me very happy and I think it would do that to more people if they would follow that principle.

krohling 12 years ago | |

Suppose you know exactly what you would rather spend your time doing but simply don't have the resources. The reality is that many noble and often selfless pursuits require substantially more resources than the average person has access to.

To use an example, suppose you're disgusted by homelessness and want to solve it. Realistically this is something that requires political influence and a large amount of money, not just to float yourself, as trying to solve this problem is unlikely to pay well, but also to develop solutions. So you say to yourself, I'm going to spend the next 5-10 years of my life trying to fill these gaps. Part of this plan may likely involve becoming a "successful" entrepreneur, as the typical job is unlikely to provide you with these resources either.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to admit that our pursuits are often stepping stones to achieving more later on.

tluyben2 12 years ago | | |

Of course they are; I just said that I need it like this and I think it would be better for some others as well. Doing something unrelated as stepping stone often ends up never doing anything about your goal and ends up on the pile of 'moving to another country when I am older'. And such. Not working on the goal especially when you need a lot of money for it which you probably never reach is making people unhappy longterm.

sivers 12 years ago | |

Yes! Exactly.

People often ask me for feedback on their business ideas.

Often, one of the first questions is, "Why are you doing this? Is this just for the money?"

Usually you can tell when that's the case.

tluyben2 12 years ago | | |

I guess I was lucky in that when I learned programming when I was 8, over 30 years ago, it created my path so to say and I seldom worked solely for the money as a result. The money was more or less a side effect of working towards my goal; actually, I would be a lot richer if I had picked money but I don't want to waste time so I had great opporunities pass be by in favour of being able to further my research. But even though my dreams are getting clearer; they started out vague and far away. That's not a bad thing; if it were clear it would've been done many times over already.

ef47d35620c1 12 years ago |

I would spend more time helping others understand that life is difficult and that we are impermanent. If we stop and think about why we feel unhappy, angry, insecure or afraid then we can understand and remove the cause.

We long for the past or we hope for the future and in doing so, we rush through the now. Stop. Breath. Be human. Life is more than your job. You job is impermanent. You are impermanent. Your health or the people you love may be gone tomorrow.

azatris 12 years ago | |

Sincere question from an open-minded student: My mindset is such that I try do everything for long-term happiness, but if I stop worrying about the future and live only one day at a time, where will I ever end up?

ef47d35620c1 12 years ago | | |

I, too, am a student. We all learn from each other.

We can't say where we will end up in life. No one knows this for certain. Being responsible and planning for the future are good things. Taking good care of yourself financially, mentally, physically and emotionally are all important now and for the future.

Life happens while we make plans. Many times, life interferes with our plans. That's OK. That doesn't mean we should stop planning. Understanding that we cannot predict or control the future will transform our suffering.

We can live now and plan for our future and have peace inside as well.

ermintrude 12 years ago | | |

If you pick up almost any book on eastern philosophy you'll find that living in the present is the key. Give up the future. It won't be how you imagine anyway.

jmspring 12 years ago |

California native, I would continue the explorations I've started. Given it is investigating history, potentially out of the way areas, attention can come later in recognition of or absorption of collected

Specifically, I would spend multiple weeks/months in:

1. Death Valley (friends and I already spend a week or so a year hear for the last several years) - we always find something new; plus literature leads to additional areas to explore 2. Highway 49, the gold country. A lot of the sierras have been built up, but there is a lot of history along Hwy 49 still to be uncovered and shared. Throw in sightseeing with tramping, appropriately timed folk songs, a lot could be learned -- for recent concerns, I would coordinate w/ those in Nevada City helping w/ the recently deceased folk hero Utah Phillips 3. Exploring rural Big Sur/Fort Hunter Liggett. This is my current back door. Big Sur is where we go to get away, but during the high season it is over run. There are nuggets to explore, but we have missed them during the crush.

These are just three very CA oriented segments. Specifics on any of which you can send me a PM about.

petercooper 12 years ago |

You know that feeling you have after a big meal? Where you're so full that you really actively don't want anything more?

I've often wondered what's going on in this situation because it's not always due to literally being 'full'. If you could package up that feeling (hormones, chemicals, whatever's causing it) and sell it in pill form, you would be the richest person on the planet..

kalleboo 12 years ago | |

> If you could package up that feeling (hormones, chemicals, whatever's causing it) and sell it in pill form, you would be the richest person on the planet..

Is this not quite literally what drugs are? And I don't just mean illegal drugs but stuff like Xanax.

JetSpiegel 12 years ago | | |

They are the richest people on the planet, so you are both right.

_kulte 12 years ago |

It's interesting, because my first impression is that stoicism is more of a virtue for someone like Derek than someone who has yet to, for lack of a better phrasing, make as tangible, substantive dent or mark or whatever in the universe, i.e. myself. However, reading Sam Soffes' blog post last night where he states his deep dissatisfaction with his accomplishments to date (Cheddar, SSToolkit, Seesaw, elusive internet fame), it makes me think that I'll never be happy even after achieving larger goals.

From my current point of view, which will no doubt change, stoicism kind of seems pointless insofar as people, for at least the past couple hundred years, have had an intrinsic desire/need to feel important. It's what motivates us to do ANYTHING, not just start a universe-changing company, or achieve lofty goals in open source, or to become rich, but it motivates our everyday interactions with people we encounter for any reason. Dale Carnegie has a nice discussion of this phenomenon in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'.

Taek 12 years ago |

"Many of my friends are entrepreneurs. A few have mentioned this deep hollow conflicted feeling. Their business ideas are not things the world wants. They're following the current tech entrepreneur stereotype, building social apps and pursuing investors. They're hating it, and having to admit they're doing it only for the jackpot. But if they stop, what's left?"

For me, that's exactly why I'm starting a company instead of going somewhere like Google. I'm not in it to hit the jackpot, I'm in it to make a lasting impact on the world and the way that we use technology. At this stage (early), it feels like I'm actually trying something useful. I feel like I have a purpose, and it's a more satisfying source of motivation than a potential jackpot.

I'd be interested to see Elon Musk weigh in on this. Hitting the financial jackpot seems very far from his mind. He said himself, his goal is to die as a resident of Mars, and the rest is just trying to pay the bills so he can fund his dream.

dperfect 12 years ago |

Not sure who said it, but "our greatest reason for being is to serve others."

Even an atheist must admit that there's a certain satisfaction that comes from helping other people (even anonymously) that really has no limit.

Go out and help make the world a better place - not out of a hope for reward or recognition... just for fun. It's addictive.

croisillon 12 years ago | |

Your comment on atheist shows your ignorance of what atheism is. Not sure if that's the one you're after but Rabindranath Tagore wrote this :

I slept and dreamt that life was joy.

I awoke and saw that life was service.

I acted and behold, service was joy.

dperfect 12 years ago | | |

My comment refers to the hope or expectation that noble acts will always be outwardly rewarded in some form (in this life or after) by a being who rewards us based on merit. That expectation is not a driving force for an atheist or naturalist.

My point is that the absence of (expected) outward recognition or reward for altruistic behavior (by a supernatural or spiritual being) does not preclude someone from experiencing the joy that comes through service. And no, I personally don't classify that joy as a selfish reward, but rather a natural consequence built in to the human brain. Whether put there by God or developed via natural forces/evolution as a mechanism to protect life (we feel satisfaction in helping other animals - not just our own species), it doesn't matter; the fact is, it's a part of our nature and can hardly be discredited in any moral debate.

Amezarak 12 years ago | |

So you serve others to serve yourself? ;) That sounds like a reward to me!

dperfect 12 years ago | | |

If that kind of "reward" isn't noble enough (I don't know of anything nobler), then we might as well not live at all.

midas007 12 years ago |

Toiling in anonymity is something I enjoy. Privacy is priceless.

DanielBMarkham 12 years ago |

After reading a recommendation for the book "A Guide to the Good Life" on HN, I reviewed it on a hacker site I have. Stoics throughout history been some of the best-equipped for finding joy in life, which is one of the reasons their methods have been taken by so many others.

When you're dealing with these issues, stoicism is highly recommended.

BTW, on the target page you can read hacker reviews from most of the other major sites, my review, and a bunch of other stuff. The site was a project I completed so that I didn't have to describe the same books over and over again on HN (So apologies for not diving into a huge amount of detail here) :)

http://hn-books.com/Books/A-Guide-to-the-Good-Life-The-Ancie...

ahomescu1 12 years ago |

> Many of my friends are entrepreneurs. A few have mentioned this deep hollow conflicted feeling. Their business ideas are not things the world wants. They're following the current tech entrepreneur stereotype, building social apps and pursuing investors. They're hating it, and having to admit they're doing it only for the jackpot. But if they stop, what's left?

I feel like this article is ignoring rich entrepreneurs who do use their wealth for far more interesting and/or useful things. First example that comes to mind: Elon Musk. Could he have made SpaceX or Tesla without first getting rich? Probably not. I think it's worthwhile to struggle to get rich, if you plan to use that monetary wealth to invest in more long-term plans.

enscr 12 years ago |

You are missing the peer pressure part. Even if you don't need money & don't need attention, people won't let you live being content. The greed for money+attention, in my view, are the biggest vices. Unfortunately, they also drive growth & innovation.

amerkhalid 12 years ago |

It is funny that I have been thinking about this a lot lately too. In fact, my latest blog post deals with this question a bit.

I used to think that one should first make millions. Then retire and then work on fun projects. I used to work on side projects that can generate income like freelancing or become business like social networks. Initially, these projects would be fun. I would essentially work on my side projects during any free time. Then I would get burned and take a break from side projects. And soon I would start all over again.

Now my goals are to work on side projects that really interest me, with or without money part. So I am writing, reading non-technical books, reading up on Big Data, AI, and my new hobby, playing with Arduino.

ThomPete 12 years ago |

I have always said no matter whether I am rich or poor the thing I will enjoy most in life is hanging with friends and drink a glass of wine. The only thing that will vary is the price of the wine.

But there is a very big difference between this being a choice or a realization you make at one point in your life vs having to accept the situation you are in.

For people like Sivers, me and I guess most other fairly successful people this kind of insight and choice is a luxury we have.

I am always reminded that Dalai Lama is only capable of doing what he does and sound so insightful as he does because he doesn't have to worry about day to day things.

Try getting married, earn a living and have a couple of kids.

Lifes complicated and for most people a struggle.

ajcarpy2005 12 years ago |

" Many of my friends are entrepreneurs. A few have mentioned this deep hollow conflicted feeling. Their business ideas are not things the world wants. They're following the current tech entrepreneur stereotype, building social apps and pursuing investors. They're hating it, and having to admit they're doing it only for the jackpot."

It seems like a lot of time and economic resources go towards creating things the world doesn't want. Some of this is just a part of competition and maybe people didn't think they wanted it until they saw it and tried it. There's some truth to it too though...short term gain is often more attractive than long term.

rglover 12 years ago |

Without a doubt: education. Specifically, my dream is to open a series of public, alternative schools where children are educated about existentialism, their role in the universe, and helping them to understand that most limits in life are artificial and made up (and ultimately to embrace creativity and harness it for good).

I haven't quite pinned it down, but I'd like the curriculum to be project-based with a handful of field trips peppered in for perspective (alternative being the keyword, with things like working at a homeless shelter for a day, spending time with an elderly "mentor", picking out something they want to see, etc.)

One day.

alexvr 12 years ago |

That's when you become Elon Musk and actually change the world. But if we're talking about like $5M, enough to retire quite comfortably, I'd just experiment and not worry what others think of what I do/create.

ca98am79 12 years ago |

If anyone would like to explore themselves at a deeper level, to try to really understand the roots of these cravings, I highly recommend Vipassana meditation. They offer free 10-day courses, where you don't read or write or talk at all the entire time. You just meditate, and they teach you to meditate. It doesn't have any religious or political affiliation - it's like boot camp for meditation. It's truly awesome, and gives you the opportunity for true, real personal growth. You can read more about it at dhamma.org

runevault 12 years ago |

I swear, there are times when Derek puts up a post and I wonder if he's in my head seeing what I need to see at a given moment. It's eery, but damned handy too.

jwmoz 12 years ago |

I'd do what Tom does http://instagram.com/myspacetom

josefresco 12 years ago | |

I follow Tom on Twitter (consume his feed in Flipboard) for this exact reason. Every time I look at one of his photos posted from around the world, I dream a little. Dude seems to be living the life he always wanted. The snarky side of me grumbles that he's probably still not happy .. but damn he sure looks it.

markovbling 12 years ago |

Very difficult to reconcile because, in my own experience at least, I get across the board better results if I almost "trick" myself into feeling I need whatever I'm working towards.

What's weird to come to terms with is that the self-hypnosis of psyching yourself into working really hard has by definition succeeded when you no longer need it.

davidw 12 years ago |

Then I'd be in shape, out enjoying my bicycle in the local hills, have a lot more time for my kids and wife, and computer time would probably just be "fooling around with open source stuff" - I do enjoy programming so I would not want to give it up. Sounds nice, I'd like to sign up.

Jack000 12 years ago |

Last week I quit my job of 3 years to travel. The plan is to stay at a different city each month.

I've been told "Isn't it risky to give up such a well paying job". Well it seems to me the real risk is to sit in a beige box for 10 years and have little other experiences besides work and vacation.

greghinch 12 years ago |

There are a lot of things in life which are better than money, and they're all very, very expensive

myth_drannon 12 years ago |

Similar to Erich Fromm quote: "If I am what I have and if I lose what I have who then am I?"

zk00006 12 years ago |

To get to point when you don't need more money is not that hard. But it certainly depends how much you want. In the end you have one hamburger for lunch anyway [Bill Gates]. Attention is trickier. It brings more power, but also more social pressure.

nsxwolf 12 years ago |

How many people really need or want attention? I somehow know that nothing I have ever done or will do would ever earn me any attention, so it must be the case that I don't need it or I'd be very unhappy right now.

Is this a Silicon Valley thing?

chippy 12 years ago | |

Depends how you define attention. From your spouse saying "that's nice" or you fellow coder saying "cool" to a billion people using your software, to hacker news karma, or acknowledgement of your comment. You can see the range of attention that I'm trying to get across.

hackluck 12 years ago |

Amen! Agreed. I always like thinkers that challenge the unexamined life and its motivations. It gives you something to think about and just enough motivation to question why you are doing what you are doing-- and make a change.

ironhide 12 years ago |

My life would be more like a star trek character beamed to an undeveloped planet.

Picard - "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions."

spiritplumber 12 years ago |

If I didn't need money or attention I would do roughly what I do now. I consider that a great blessing.

Find a job you love and keep enough distance to not grow to hate it, and that's half a recipe for happiness right there.

Mz 12 years ago |

Funny/ironic: I'm actually already doing the stuff I believe in ... and trying to figure out how to monetize it, which requires me to figure out how to get traffic (aka "attention").

cykho 12 years ago |

I think most great hackers (and hacks) are driven by curiosity. Things that have the highest expected value for returning money/attention are usually boring.

neumann 12 years ago |

Significant changes to one's life, such as deaths, sickness, and births tend to pull people's perspective on this direction (at least temporarily).

FollowSteph3 12 years ago |

Pure R&D without the need for profit. That gives you whole classes of problems you can look. Especially longer term and higher risk projects

loisaidasam 12 years ago |

"Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you."

-Lao Tzu

tdees40 12 years ago |

In the words of the poet Philip Larkin, we're all "stumbling up the stair/into fulfillment's desolate attic."

tim333 12 years ago |

Dunno. I inherited money and have been in roughly that position for much of my life. Try to have fun and make stuff that's cool?

hownottowrite 12 years ago |

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7414767

chippy 12 years ago |

Goes against the Protestant Work Ethic. This states that to be a good person you have do be diligent and work hard.

ctdonath 12 years ago | |

Disagree (Protestant here). Nothing stopping you from being diligent and working hard when all your financial needs are met.

I would...exist. Off grid, as back-to-basics as possible. Minutes ago I was looking up how to obtain & grind wheat with a hand mill, lamenting not having enough land to grow my own. Bottomless supply of money? would cover the basics of buying the land (cheap though my choice would be), ensuring taxes & recurring overhead take care of themselves, buying the tools needed which I'd not yet gotten around to making from raw materials, and (insofar as I'm a geek obsessed with things I've no hope of making myself) buying leading-edge high-tech widgets which would in turn be applied to pay for themselves. Should endless funds truly tempt me, they'd be applied to (again) ultimately self-funding ventures.

My problem now is being stuck with a "market peak" mortgage. I'm painfully aware of how vital - and how near - financial independence is. "All the money I'd need" isn't really that much, as I've already earned - and spent less than wisely - it. I was actually quite close to that point, then found that love can be quite pricy.

andretti1977 12 years ago |

Money, attention...these should be side-effects in living a good life. So simple, so true.

iopq 12 years ago |

I would browser hacker news or reddit all day. It's quite stimulating

JetSpiegel 12 years ago | |

I already do that!

tegeek 12 years ago |

When you realize you've enough of everything, you are truly rich.

adamzerner 12 years ago |

It's a cliche idea, but it was articulated really well here.

outside1234 12 years ago |

i feel so fortunate that i can truly say, that for me, one of those things is software.

i really would do this for nothing.

(don't tell my boss)

EGreg 12 years ago |

I feel afraid for that pigeon

graycat 12 years ago |

Likely you'd be dead!

_sabe_ 12 years ago |

I hate compliments. I become uncomfortable when people say nice things to me because I don't know if they are sarcastic or not. Probably because I'm never satisfied with my own results always thinking about how I could have done it better.

Secondly I hate everything material, even so money. I make just enough money to pay the bills and other essentials, but if someone I know even remotely would ask me for $100 I would never ever think about getting it back.

No one else who can relate to this?

a3voices 12 years ago |

You would probably spend your time writing blog posts criticizing other successful people [1], or invading small peninsulas like Crimea.

[1] http://blog.pmarca.com/2014/03/18/when-carl-icahn-ran-a-comp...

notastartup 12 years ago |

Become a race car driver but nobody is hiring/